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3 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2010 - 12:47PM
#1
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Here is the issue:
We are having a lunchtime arena match, my Wilden swarm druid vs. Skidmark's (yeah that's his nickname) Human monk. We are both a couple of hit points from dying. He hits me with Dancing Cobra. I'm still standing with 5 hp. I pull out my Wrath of the Destroyer (Immediate Reaction) when he has only 4 hp left. He says that his Centered Flurry of Blows which is triggered by Dancing Cobra takes effect BEFORE my Wrath of the Destroyer. Which takes effect first? Does an Immediate Reaction trump a triggered free action?
I rolled my attack and the damage roll (if it goes through) drops him. If it doesn't, he drops me. We keep tallies on Wins vs. Losses and I'm normally the DM in the campaign, but it is unethical for me to rule in a situation in a PvP match where I am involved.
Who wins?
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3 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2010 - 12:52PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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What's the actual trigger text for Wrath of the Destroyer?
There's no simple answer to your question, since the rules are kind of vague about when exactly a trigger free action occurs. Different people play it differently. But given that flurry of blows triggers off "you hit with an attack", I'd probably let it go first on the theory that you could technically invoke it before you rolled damage, while an immediate reaction has to wait until the entire triggering action resolves.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2010 - 12:56PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 25, 2009
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What's the actual trigger text for Wrath of the Destroyer?
Encounter
Immediate Reaction Personal Trigger: A bloodied enemy attacks you or your ally adjacent to you Effect: You either make a melee basic attack against the triggering enemy or charge it. If your attack hits, the enemy is also dazed until the end of your next turn.
Wrath of the Destroyer triggers on an attack, Flurry of Blows triggers on a hit. However, since Flurry of Blows is a free action, it all comes down to 'can free actions interrupt' or not. If free actions can interrupt, then Flurry of Blows interrupts the hit, comes before the hit, and would resolve before Wrath of the Destroyer's reaction to the attack.
However, if free actions can't interrupt, then the reaction is triggered by the attack, and would come before a reaction triggered by the hit.
There's no RAW answer to this question. You'll have to go back and remember how you ruled free actions working previously, and do it the same way as that, if you want to be fair. Or you could just call it a draw.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2010 - 5:13PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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Flurry of Blows hit first.
Order is:
Interrupt (immediately before trigger)
Free Action (immediately after trigger)
Reaction (after triggering action/attack completely resolves)
So the flurry of blows is when he attacks, and technically can be considered to resolve before the Cobra damage even occurs. The Wrath of the Destroyer is after the Cobra attack is completely resolved.
So the final order is:
Dancing Cobra Attacks
Dancing Cobra Hits (trigger)
Flurry of Blows resolves (free action immediately follows trigger)
Dancing Cobra does damage
Dancing Cobra attack now resolved
Wrath of the Destoyer resolves (reaction follows triggeing action/attack completely resolving)
If you feel that a free action attack really shouldn't occur between a hit and damage for some reason, it should still resolve before the triggering attack is completely resolved, beating Wrath of the Destroyer.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2010 - 11:47PM
#5
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Sigh, and Anki did such a good job of answering it correctly...
There is zero RAW about when free actions, even triggered ones, resolve. It isn't an asnwerable question, and anyone who does answer it is using a personal interpretation. Which isn't neccesarily wrong, there are enough free actions that each table had to come up with some kind of answer, but it should be presented as such whenever the discussion comes up.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 23, 2010 - 7:22AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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There is zero RAW about when free actions, even triggered ones, resolve.
The lack of special rules for resolution of Free Actions doesn't mean we don't know when they resolve, or that relevent rules don't exist.
Both the PHB2 and PHB3 glossary define what a trigger means. It is the point at which the power is used. Interrupts and Reactions have special rules about how they resolve when used, interrupts before the trigger resolves and reactions after the triggering action resolves. But Free Actions do not have special resolution rules. As such, they resolve immediately when used just as any other power does ... and they are defined to be used when the trigger occurs.
So, rules relevent to Triggered Free Actions do exist, and they resolve immediately when used at the triggering event.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 23, 2010 - 7:38AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
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Here's a monkey wrench for you. FoB is a free action you can use any time after you've hit a creature with an attack on your round. With that in mind, I'm partial to agreeing with one post above that says you can trigger FoB before you roll damage on that attack, since you know you hit already...
However! Because Wrath of the destroyer is an immediate reaction to being "attacked" it doesn't care that you hit or not, the trigger is the character saying, "I'm attacking you," and the roll of his/her die.
Unfortunately, if I were to DM this and it came to a decision on my part, I'd let the FoB hit because the player with Wrath didn't choose to trigger it on the attack, and waited instead for the rest of the power to resolve. It's obviously something that a casual game could rewind and say it works as intended; but in the spirit of PVP, he should have said he was gonna trigger Wrath when the other player declared he was attacking him. It's like readying an action. When you ready an action, it says you'd better declare your trigger to be when the creature moves, and not when it attacks, because otherwise you'll be waiting for it to finish attacking you because readying an action gives you an immediate reaction to the trigger.
just my .02
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3 years ago ::
Jun 23, 2010 - 7:48AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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FoB is a free action you can use any time after you've hit a creature with an attack on your round.
No it isn't. It is a free action you can choose to use immediately when triggered by hitting. That hit must occur on your turn. You cannot use it "any time after", you must use it when you hit.
Meanwhile Wrath is a reaction to the attack. As a reaction, it occurs after the attack has fully resolved, not immediately following the attack declaration. edit: Also "attacked" is awfully vague in when you have to declare it, which I've realized was your actual point in regards to it. 
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3 years ago ::
Jun 23, 2010 - 11:11AM
#9
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- Here be Dragons next 100 km
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There isn't a really clear answer as to which resolves first. I'd suggest you assume that they both have equal 'precedence', and resolve the order in which they occur through an opposed Initiative check.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 23, 2010 - 2:41PM
#10
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There is zero RAW about when free actions, even triggered ones, resolve.
The lack of special rules for resolution of Free Actions doesn't mean we don't know when they resolve, or that relevent rules don't exist.
Both the PHB2 and PHB3 glossary define what a trigger means. It is the point at which the power is used. Interrupts and Reactions have special rules about how they resolve when used, interrupts before the trigger resolves and reactions after the triggering action resolves. But Free Actions do not have special resolution rules. As such, they resolve immediately when used just as any other power does ... and they are defined to be used when the trigger occurs.
So, rules relevent to Triggered Free Actions do exist, and they resolve immediately when used at the triggering event.
Trigger: Powers that are immediate actions (interrupts or reactions) or opportunity actions have a trigger, which defines when you're allowed to use the power. Some powers that are free actions, or that require no action to use, have a trigger as well.
Grats, you inserted text that isn't there! There is zero RAW about when free actions resolve. Period. It does not exist. Based on the actual rules we have, it'd be just as easy to say it resolves several turns later. "Trigger" in no ways says "this resolves right now" and never has. Triggered Immediate Actions are specific, they occur immediately before, or immediately after the trigger. Simple. Free actions have no text like that. At all.
To quote myself.
There is zero RAW about when free actions, even triggered ones, resolve. It isn't an asnwerable question, and anyone who does answer it is using a personal interpretation. Which isn't neccesarily wrong, there are enough free actions that each table had to come up with some kind of answer, but it should be presented as such whenever the discussion comes up.
And I want to emphasize part of that. It is not neccesarily wrong to say they resolve at time x, y, or z. There are enough free actions that each table must come up with their own rule, but that rule is not RAW, because there is no RAW. Anki's answer was perfect.
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