I've been following several threads, and I have several questions I would like to ask. Most of these questions pertain to grabs, Brawlers and the items they use.
1.) When you have grabbed a creature, can you still use the hand this is holding them to make an attack? For example, you are grabbing two creatures (Spiked Gauntlet in both hand). You sustain both grabs as move and minor. As a standard, can you make a MBA against one of them, using the Gauntlet that is holding them?
2.) When using a Brawler power that grabs the target (Grappling Strike for example), it states that the grab automatically ends at the end of your next turn. Can you sustain it as a minor action (like a standard grab attack) to prevent this auto-end? Or do you have to keep refreshing it with another Grappling Strike?
3.) Let's say a Brawler was using a Spiked Shield with the Rhythm Blade enchant, and a Spiked Gauntlet. He did not spend the feat on the Spiked Shield, he just wanted it for the shield bonus and still maintaining the Brawler bonus (weapon in one hand, other hand free). Obviously, he does not want to use the Spiked Shield in an attack (no proficiency bonus, low enhancement, no brawler enhancement).
Or in less powergamey example, he has 2 Spiked Gauntlets, but only one is enchanted (as you can only enchant one, because it takes up your hand slot). He would want to make all the attacks with the enchanted one, as it gains the magic item enhancement to damage, and it will use the higher of the Brawler enhancement and magic item enhancement for the attack bonus.
When making a Brawler attack that states that you must have one hand free (Slash and Pummel), can you make both the weapon and unarmed attack with the same weapon? Can you use the one gauntlet as both the (Main Weapon) attack and the (Unarmed) attack? In another example, with Grappling Strike, can you make the weapon attack with the free hand (gauntlet) and then grab it using that same hand?
4.) Sash of Ensnarement. Property: Gain reach 2 for purposes of grab attacks. Also, you do not need a free hand to make a grab attack.
a.) Can you sustain a grab at reach 2, providing you did not violate any of the other grab conditions (moving away etc.)? Obviously this does not give your Brawler powers that grab reach 2, but you could use your standard action to grab a creature at reach 2, and then sustain it as a minor every turn after, immobilizing them out of reach?
b.) How many creatures can you grab total? 1 for each free hand, and one for the sash? As many as you want, assuming you have the minor actions to sustain the grabs?
c.) When you use a power that allows you to grab (Grappling Strike), can you use the Sash to grab the creature instead of the free hand? Or would you have to "transfer" the grab from the free hand to the sash? If you had to transfer the grab to the sash, what kind of action would that be?
d.) If you push the creature you have grabbed one square away (Tide of Iron), do you still count as "within reach", thus able to sustain the grab next turn?
e.) Can the sash sustain a grab on more than one creature? If the Brawler in question used the situation in d.) twice, could he sustain both grabs? Obviously you are limited by the amount of minor actions you have to sustain.
That's all I can think of for now, I'm sure there will be more later.
I dunno if all of these are defined, but I'll take a stab at them- 1. Nothing in the grab rules says whether you can attack with a weapon used to grab someone- unsurprising since there wasn't a way to do that in the PHB that I'm aware of. AV doesn't have any rules relating to having grabbed someone with a spiked gauntlet, but does have a weapon enchantment (grasping) that lets you grab with a weapon, and part of that weapons property is "You can still use this weapon to attack a target you’ve grabbed with it." Lacking any general rule on what you can do with a weapon used to grab someone, I see that as an indication that RAI is that you can attack a grabbed target with the weapon grabbing it. No RAW I can find, though.
2. The powers override the normal grab duration; you have to use a power without that restriction (like a normal grab attack) if you want to sustain it.
3. Grappling Strike definitely doesn't have anything to stop you from doing this. Slash And Pummel... well, you could make the argument that the parentheticals (main weapon) and (unarmed) indicate the primary and secondary attacks should be with different hands, but the gauntlet is both your main weapon and unarmed in your example. I don't see anything in the power text that stops that from working- definitely contradicts the fluff, but fluff is fluff.
4. a. Yes, you can sustain the grab at reach 2. b. This isn't something I'd thought of. Yeah, nothing stops you from grabbing as many enemies as you want so long as you don't activate the sash's daily; the property just says you don't need a hand free, it doesn't say you can grab one more enemy than you have free hands. c. Nothing in the sash says you can transfer the grab, so I'd say no. d. Yes, as long as the creature stays within the reach you can grab in, forced movement won't break the grab. e. As long as you have enough minor actions, you can sustain as many grabs (or grabs and other sustainable powers, for that matter) as you want.
Something to note on the spiked shield+rhythm blade thing- the brawler bonus only works when you have a weapon in your main hand and your off hand is free, meaning the shield needs to be in your main hand to get the brawler bonus and the shield bonus at once. The rhythm blade property only works when you wield the weapon in your off hand. You can't get the brawler bonus and the rhythm blade bonus at once, because you can't have your off hand free and holding a rhythm blade at the same time.
1. Nothing in the grab rules says whether you can attack with a weapon used to grab someone- unsurprising since there wasn't a way to do that in the PHB that I'm aware of. AV doesn't have any rules relating to having grabbed someone with a spiked gauntlet, but does have a weapon enchantment (grasping) that lets you grab with a weapon, and part of that weapons property is "You can still use this weapon to attack a target you’ve grabbed with it." Lacking any general rule on what you can do with a weapon used to grab someone, I see that as an indication that RAI is that you can attack a grabbed target with the weapon grabbing it. No RAW I can find, though.
Plus, I'm sure no DM would ever not let you choke the fella you have grabbed.
2. The powers override the normal grab duration; you have to use a power without that restriction (like a normal grab attack) if you want to sustain it.
Damn. I guess this makes sense when you consider some of the later Brawler powers daze until the grab ends (with a Brawler? Perma daze!). That would be pretty amazing if you could sustain it. I would assume you couldn't refresh a grab that ends automatically with a standard action grab and still gain the benefit from the attack.
3. Grappling Strike definitely doesn't have anything to stop you from doing this. Slash And Pummel... well, you could make the argument that the parentheticals (main weapon) and (unarmed) indicate the primary and secondary attacks should be with different hands, but the gauntlet is both your main weapon and unarmed in your example. I don't see anything in the power text that stops that from working- definitely contradicts the fluff, but fluff is fluff.
I found a more definite answer to this. Last line in the One Hand Free blurb on pg.6 of MP2. "Your hand is free if you use a Spiked Gauntlet, even if you used it to attack during your turn." To me, that speaks a bit about intent.
RAW, this makes me quite happy for some other things...
4. a. Yes, you can sustain the grab at reach 2. b. This isn't something I'd thought of. Yeah, nothing stops you from grabbing as many enemies as you want so long as you don't activate the sash's daily; the property just says you don't need a hand free, it doesn't say you can grab one more enemy than you have free hands. c. Nothing in the sash says you can transfer the grab, so I'd say no. d. Yes, as long as the creature stays within the reach you can grab in, forced movement won't break the grab. e. As long as you have enough minor actions, you can sustain as many grabs (or grabs and other sustainable powers, for that matter) as you want.
I guess c. is pretty much something that is completely undefined, as there is nothing in the rules about moving grabs between hands let alone to a magic waist.
Something to note on the spiked shield+rhythm blade thing- the brawler bonus only works when you have a weapon in your main hand and your off hand is free, meaning the shield needs to be in your main hand to get the brawler bonus and the shield bonus at once. The rhythm blade property only works when you wield the weapon in your off hand. You can't get the brawler bonus and the rhythm blade bonus at once, because you can't have your off hand free and holding a rhythm blade at the same time.
That's actually a good point. I didn't realize that Brawler style actually specified MH and OH, thought it just required a weapon in one and nothing in the other. Probably still worth using a spiked shield in you MH. Frees up a feat and allows the brawler access to all of the shield powers and feats. Losing out on +1 AC, Reflex, Fort, Will sucks (after you've got all the shield feats and rhythm blade).
Something to note on the spiked shield+rhythm blade thing- the brawler bonus only works when you have a weapon in your main hand and your off hand is free, meaning the shield needs to be in your main hand to get the brawler bonus and the shield bonus at once. The rhythm blade property only works when you wield the weapon in your off hand. You can't get the brawler bonus and the rhythm blade bonus at once, because you can't have your off hand free and holding a rhythm blade at the same time.
That's actually a good point. I didn't realize that Brawler style actually specified MH and OH, thought it just required a weapon in one and nothing in the other. Probably still worth using a spiked shield in you MH. Frees up a feat and allows the brawler access to all of the shield powers and feats. Losing out on +1 AC, Reflex, Fort, Will sucks (after you've got all the shield feats and rhythm blade).
I don't know whether it's worth taking the shield to fort/will feats if you don't have a +2 shield bonus. If you have a couple of feats free in a build, I'd probably actually go for two weapon fighting and defense over a spiked shield so that you can use a better weapon for your main hand. You end up with the same shield bonus and even just a longsword will give you better damage and accuracy. Unless you have something in mind that relies on shield only powers, of course.
No real point to having a better weapon in your MH unless you are planning on taking some MH/OH powers. Most the powers I would be taking are just requires one hand free. And yea, there are some snazzy shield powers/feats that I wouldn't want to give up. Tide of Iron + grabbed target seems like a pretty badass combo. I think at least the +1 to fort might be worth it.
Then again, I won't be using my MH or offhand in my build...
1.) So, we agree that with a power like Grappling Strike, the creature you grab goes into your free hand. What if a power doesn't require a free hand? Bloodknight lvl 11 encounter just grabs the target. In that situation, could you use Sash of Ensnarement to grab the creature?
2.) Related to the above... Grasping Weapon. Consider the following situation. A brawler has a spiked shield in his MH and his gauntlet in his offhand (getting both brawler and shield bonus). He pulls out a grasping javalin (making this javalin hand his MH and spiked shield OH, losing brawler bonus) as a minor action. He uses knockdown assualt on the creature in front of him, knocking it prone. As a free action, he uses the grasping encounter ability, grabbing the creature.
What is currently grabbing the creature? The weapon? The sash? Can he put the weapon away and still be grabbing the creature?
3.) When you make a grab attack (standard action) and get the benefit from the Grasping Weapon, do you have to keep it out for the duration of the grab? Or is it there just to help get the creature under control, and you can put it away later?
1) I go for RAW on this. No need to occupy an hand to have someone grabbed: the rules do not explicitly say you do it (in fact, you can reach something like 4 sustained grabs in epic) and it would be crippling for the brawler, making it the most underpowered class. So, I assume that you do not occupy any part of your being to sustain one or more grabs, but just actions.
Regarding the Bloodknight + Sash... why not? I would say yes. The Sash say "when yu sustain grab..." so you can activate its daily. To be totally RAW you can activate it ever whit Grappling Strike, but you would gain very little for it (you can sustain the grab of the Grappling Strike, but it would still end at the end of the next turn. Nice if you have the Crushing Grab epic feat).
2) The character is grabbing the creature. Nothing in the weapon say you have to continue to use it, so you can safely put it away. The part where it say "you can continue to use the weapon to attack" is simply redundant, to avoid problems how you're grabbing. (Little RAW-twisting note: someone can read the last part, ie. "grabbed until escape" like an specific override generic, meaning that the only way to end the grab is trough an escape grab action, so it should remain grabbed ever if the character is stunned, the target teleport away... But it is too much against RAI, IMHO)
3) The last one: The Graping Weapon is just adding its bonus to the character attack roll. Sustaining the grab do not get benefits from the Grasping Weapon, nor the Grasping Weapon indicate that you have to continue to use it or ever have it present to sustain a normal grab.
Actually Play'ng:
Nothing. My old party is full of short-sighted racists and sexists (on their own admission), so I left.
1) I go for RAW on this. No need to occupy an hand to have someone grabbed: the rules do not explicitly say you do it (in fact, you can reach something like 4 sustained grabs in epic) and it would be crippling for the brawler, making it the most underpowered class. So, I assume that you do not occupy any part of your being to sustain one or more grabs, but just actions.
Regarding the Bloodknight + Sash... why not? I would say yes. The Sash say "when yu sustain grab..." so you can activate its daily. To be totally RAW you can activate it ever whit Grappling Strike, but you would gain very little for it (you can sustain the grab of the Grappling Strike, but it would still end at the end of the next turn. Nice if you have the Crushing Grab epic feat).
2) The character is grabbing the creature. Nothing in the weapon say you have to continue to use it, so you can safely put it away. The part where it say "you can continue to use the weapon to attack" is simply redundant, to avoid problems how you're grabbing. (Little RAW-twisting note: someone can read the last part, ie. "grabbed until escape" like an specific override generic, meaning that the only way to end the grab is trough an escape grab action, so it should remain grabbed ever if the character is stunned, the target teleport away... But it is too much against RAI, IMHO)
3) The last one: The Graping Weapon is just adding its bonus to the character attack roll. Sustaining the grab do not get benefits from the Grasping Weapon, nor the Grasping Weapon indicate that you have to continue to use it or ever have it present to sustain a normal grab.
In response to 2.)
Same logic as 1.), because the weapon didn't state your require a free hand, can you use the Sash of Ensnarement when you make a grab attack with it, or when you use it's encounter ability?
I just realized that people are always making the argument that "specific beats general" for Grappling Strike. They state that because it makes no mention of size restriction, you can grab a creature of any size.
By that logic, any attack power (or the grasping weapon encounter ability) that states "you grab the target" and doesn't require 1 hand free overrides the general rule that you must have 1 hand free in order to grab the target. This is doubly true because the mention of needing one hand free is part of the ATTACK LINE of the standard action, which you never have to make (you go straight to the hit portion of the rules).
I had always assumed that when you grab a creature, it goes into your free hand. When you sustain it, it stays in that hand. I can't actually find a rule for this though. You need a free hand to MAKE a grab check, but nothing on affect this has on your free hand after the creature is grabbed. No mention of you use your currently grabbing hand to sustain it either, just that it takes a minor action.
Nothing I'm aware of explicitly states that grabbing a creature occupies a hand. Then again, for a long time nothing explicitly stated that holding a weapon occupied a hand and there's still nothing that says you can't wield multiple weapons per hand- some things are considered so obvious that they aren't called out in the rules. We do know that grabbing is intended to occupy a hand, though it's not stated; from the most recent brawler update: "While you wield a weapon in your primary hand and your off hand is free or grabbing a creature, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to Fortitude." The bit about "or grabbing a creature" was added in that change; the explanatory text accompanying the change says that the change is so the brawler's defenses won't go up and down from round to round. So you can make an argument that RAW doesn't stop you from grabbing without using a hand, but the intent is clearly that a hand is used.
