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And with the new Int ability bonus option for warforged we now have a really great alternative race for this build. One that can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until the enemy is dead.

Mar 15, 2011 -- 10:17AM, StarKiller_ wrote:

And with the new Int ability bonus option for warforged we now have a really great alternative race for this build. One that can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until the enemy is dead.

Yes, I see Killswitch-209 reasoning with the enemy now: "You are illegally parked on private property. You have 20 seconds to move your vehicle."

I have a question on Bloodied targets. How do you know if the target is Bloodied? There are several powers that only work or work better if your target is Bloodied. How are you supposed to know if the target is Bloodied, surely this isn't a use your power and hope you guessed correctly?

I am asking because I am leveling up a Killswitch to 5th level and the build shows taking Scent of Victory as his Daily.

Mar 16, 2011 -- 7:46AM, LiamDeclan wrote:

I have a question on Bloodied targets. How do you know if the target is Bloodied?

Depends in part on how free your DM is with information. Kind ones might just tell you if you ask. Other options include: Know Your Monsters and keep track of the damage that has been done to them. You will probably be able to make at least a SWAG (worst-case scenario). Monster Knowledge Checks during combat - even a DM who won't tell you "for free" might (should?) let you know if it's bloodied or not when you roll high enough. It's one of the reasons people suggest that a well-built party will have all the monster knowledge skills trained.

Mar 16, 2011 -- 8:12AM, Vivianna_Romanones wrote:

Mar 16, 2011 -- 7:46AM, LiamDeclan wrote:

I have a question on Bloodied targets. How do you know if the target is Bloodied?

Depends in part on how free your DM is with information. Kind ones might just tell you if you ask. Other options include: Know Your Monsters and keep track of the damage that has been done to them. You will probably be able to make at least a SWAG (worst-case scenario). Monster Knowledge Checks during combat - even a DM who won't tell you "for free" might (should?) let you know if it's bloodied or not when you roll high enough. It's one of the reasons people suggest that a well-built party will have all the monster knowledge skills trained.

Actually your DM is supposed to tell you when an enemy is bloodied. (pg 27 in the DMG)

Thank you. I was thinking that the DM might have to do this, just based on the number of powers and effects the Bloodied condition interacts with.

Im currently debating running either Killswitch or the "heavy offense" varient. If my LFR group is a large number of people, so I cannot depend on any particular party configuration, which of these would you suggest making? Thanks! Love it!

Edit: Part configuration tends to be pretty balanced however, its not as if I may get into a party with 5 strikers. We nearly always have all the roles filled, and usually six people playing PCs

Mar 16, 2011 -- 8:19AM, rjsilverthorn wrote:

Actually your DM is supposed to tell you when an enemy is bloodied. (pg 27 in the DMG)

For better or worse, a lot of DMs don't do that, though, which is why he had to ask. If they all did it, if his DM was doing it already, the question wouldn't be necessary.

Mar 16, 2011 -- 9:40AM, zelink551 wrote:

Im currently debating running either Killswitch or the "heavy offense" varient. If my LFR group is a large number of people, so I cannot depend on any particular party configuration, which of these would you suggest making? Thanks! Love it!

Edit: Part configuration tends to be pretty balanced however, its not as if I may get into a party with 5 strikers. We nearly always have all the roles filled, and usually six people playing PCs

In a LFR scenario, I'd recommend the baseline build first.  Keep an eye on the differences and after a couple levels, make an informed decision based upon the groups you've played with so far.  If you play with the same gang, you'll usually end up playing with the same types of characters, for the most part, over time.

Mar 16, 2011 -- 11:27AM, Vivianna_Romanones wrote:

For better or worse, a lot of DMs don't do that, though, which is why he had to ask. If they all did it, if his DM was doing it already, the question wouldn't be necessary.

Really?

Wow, that's awful.  Speaking as a DM, I would never consider denying the players vital information like "is the target bloodied".  And I've never played with a DM who didn't let us know.

Mar 17, 2011 -- 3:26PM, ankiyavon wrote:

Wow, that's awful.  Speaking as a DM, I would never consider denying the players vital information like "is the target bloodied".  And I've never played with a DM who didn't let us know.

Well, if they all did it, he wouldn't have had to ask, would he?

Just to follow up, I told our DM about page 27 in the DMG and he said that, this completely makes sense. We plan on implementing this right away. None of us knew about it.

Mar 17, 2011 -- 3:32PM, Vivianna_Romanones wrote:

Well, if they all did it, he wouldn't have had to ask, would he?

"One guy who didn't know the rule" (or even a few guys) doesn't surprise me.  People make mistakes.  It happens, nothing bad about it.

"A lot of DMs" surprises me.  But this is like six million percent off topic.  So in summary:  Artificers and artificer hybrids are awesome.

Mar 17, 2011 -- 3:42PM, ankiyavon wrote:

"A lot of DMs" surprises me.  But this is like six million percent off topic.

Yeah, I have to wonder why you're hammering this nail so hard out of the blue. But to each their own. You have to figure that if one person asks, it's more than one. And DMs do what they do for a variety of reasons, strange and unfathomable to outsiders unless you want to write a tome about it, and I didn't feel the need to get into guessing what the reason might be, from not knowing to whatever reason, until you decided to pick this nit for reasons unfathomable to *this* outsider. I suppose I could speculate your motives, but I'd probably wrong - just as I might have been if I tried to guess why this or that DM does what they do.

Anyhow, glad you're done being six million percent off topic, and the thread can go back to Killswitch.

Mar 17, 2011 -- 3:45PM, Vivianna_Romanones wrote:

Yeah, I have to wonder why you're hammering this nail so hard out of the blue. But to each their own. You have to figure that if one person asks, it's more than one.

This is something called the "anecdotal fallacy". ONE DM doesn't tell, and he's playing wrong. Ignore that, this is CharOP. We play right.

So does Warforged/Genasi Int/Con change this build at all? I can see Voidsoul being very nice.

Mar 17, 2011 -- 4:31PM, SadisticFishing wrote:

This is something called the "anecdotal fallacy". ONE DM doesn't tell, and he's playing wrong. Ignore that, this is CharOP. We play right.

People out there in the real world play differently all the time, and even in CharOP stuff like that is mentioned; when responding to a question, you have to deal with a range of possibilities. And no it's not an "anecdotal fallacy" to understand that not everyone is playing the same, and that if one person asks a question it's quite likely that a number of other people are doing the same thing. Unless you want to claim that every DM out there other than that player's was "doing it right." Indeed you *could* just as easily have pointed the pointy finger of "anecdotal fallacy" at ankiyavon when he first derailed this to "six million percent off topic" by arguing from what he does as a DM and what he has experienced with DMs he played with, but for whatever reason you don't. I won't speculate as to why you are inconsistent. 

For my part, I am going to keep replying as long as people like SadisticFishing keep up with these literally pointless nitpiciks. But as soon as you folks want to stop being six hundred percent off topic, the thread will go back on topic. Hopefully, that time is now.

Actually, assuming that many people do something because one do is definitely the anecdotal fallacy. If two had, that'd be something, but we now have 1 example of this. Which shows that there is at least 1 example - nothing more. Implies there are probably a few others, but "many"? There's no evidence for that.

Also, he's playing it wrong. If someone signed on saying that his DM only allowed at-wills once per encounter, we'd correct him too. His DM SHOULD tell him when they are bloodied, and vice versa, it's a rule.

Mar 17, 2011 -- 4:31PM, SadisticFishing wrote:

So does Warforged/Genasi Int/Con change this build at all? I can see Voidsoul being very nice.

I don't know if it changes it per se--its playstyle and core feats aren't going to change--but it certainly opens up some other options. The human's third at-will really isn't necessary and certainly having a very durable leader (in the case of the 'forged) is a good thing. To make up for the loss of the bonus feat I'd drop Potent Restorables, pick up Enhanced Resistive Formula at 12 instead of retraining for it, and delay Danger Sense et al for two levels. If you really want a racial feat then Bolstering Admixture is okay at heroic levels until you want to start using your admixtures to grant temp HP.

Mar 17, 2011 -- 4:49PM, SadisticFishing wrote:

Actually, assuming that many people do something because one do is definitely the anecdotal fallacy.

Ok, I'll play your silly little game. "Many" is still anecdotal, not statistically significant representative sampling; so if you were being consistent instead of just having a go at me, "sadistically fishing," you'd have made the same point with respect to ankiyavon. But of course you didn't, for whatever reason of your own.

The only reason to continue to beat this horse in response to me trying to give some tips that might help someone regardless of how his DM rules and for whatever (unknown to me) reason he might is to have a go at me. I do know that some people's definition of "CharOp" is to pointlessly stir things up. There are several devices for doing that, including the inconsistent application of charges ("anecdotal fallacy" aimed at me, but not at ankiyavon) and derailing of topics ("six hundred million percent"). None of which illuminate anything.

No one ever said he shouldn't tell his DM of the rule, by the way. So you're engaged in a fallacy of your own, the good ol' fashioned non sequiter. If you want to keep playing your sillly little game, instead of letting the thread get back on topic, we'll see how many you can rack up before it's all over.

Or if you prefer, just to make you happy, you can take this ribbon, print it out, and wear it with pride:


Then perhaps this insufferable (especially to the poor non-participants) exchange can end.

Hey all,

I was playing around the other day, and I came up with a possible variant of Killswitch.  I wanted to see how well he could work if he were Wisdom based rather than Con based. That led to me trying out a Githzerai, which led to having him chucking Fullblades around instead of using a crossbow, etc.

The bullet points are:

• even better initiative modifier (+48 at L30)
• even better initiative bonus to allies (+12 at L30)
• fully functional in melee
• Better defenses (IMO) since Fort matters less than Will.
• save vs. stun/daze at start of turn with +2 to the save!
• 1/enc Warlord Presence AP benefit (+25 damage/+16 THP at L30)
• solid basic attacks
• Magic Weapon rider is now +3 hit, +7 damage + brutal 1
• +10 to hit bonus with Rush of Battle attacks
• Better skills (IMO) including a +27 perception
• +2 to hit and damage for all granted attacks
• Solid healing of 1x Healing Infusion (surge +23 at L30), 2x Inspiring Word (surge +8d6+6)
• high crit
• everyone in the party gets a free basic whenever any ally gets crit
• permanent concealment
• permanent CA with ranged attacks

Losses compared to original build are:

• 1 to hit (no headband of intellect)
• ~3 avg damage (no steady shooter, no bracers of archery, +d12 [W]s, +blademaster vs. weapon focus)
• less nova potential due to PP change, but better at will buffing
• shorter range
• no Psychic Lock
• no Danger sense (but with an extra +8 initiative I think you come out ahead)
• no Enhanced Resistive Formula (but this build uses a potent Curative Formula instead)

Anyway, here is the CB summary:
Gith Killswitch Show

You also lost Psychic Lock, you don't get Fight On as early, I don't see Enhanced Restive Formula on there at all. It has issues covering the bases that Killswitch does.

True.  I should have mentioned those other missing items. And the progression order is certainly not polished.  It could all be tweeked.

But overal I think that the gains make up for the losses. It is a variant with a different play style, but I think it is a solid alternative.  At level 1 I think it is more effective due to the extra +1 damage handed out by Magic Weapon and dealing 1d12+7 on a hit.  At 11th the original Killswitch pulls way ahead on nova power due to the awesome combo of Spell Tracer + AP feature, whereas my variant gets an upgraded Magic Weapon as well as upgrades to his regular Magic Weapon, for better buffing. And I think the build is fine w/o Enhanced Resistive Formula. It uses Curative Formula instead and with his high Wisdom and Healer's Brooch, I think he's got healing pretty well covered.

Right now I am looking into getting better mileage out of his Warlord Presence as it seems that there is a lot of potential there.  I was really tempted to take Insightful presence instead of Resourceful due to the big buff it offers Insightful Assault, but the actual AP buff from Resourceful tipped the scales IMO.

I like the variant. Alcestis is correct, it doesn't cover the same bases Killswitch does; all choices are tradeoffs. But your variant is a solid build and shows the flexibility of the overall build framework, and some fun things can be done with your version too.

Did the Genasi/Warforged changes do anything for this build, in your opinions? :D

Neither have feats that really help the build all that much and the racial powers could be nice but I think the human and deva ones are still better. So the only real reason to play it would be stat synergy and that only really matters for the bonus on the back end of resistive formula.

Buffing two people with Magic Weapon is also huge. If you can get three? That +1 is very large throughout heroic.

There are no human feats on the list, either, and many get Expertise for free, making it an even easier decision for those :P

But humans can still have the ability to bump their own roll up which is still probably better for the build than the others that are avilable. Also I only play in LFR though so I never take into account getting expertise for anything for free. I will admit I have looked at going Genasi probably and Voidsoul for if nothing else having the option to basically phase out and bumping the one resistitive that I do get. Its kind of the nice thing about the build is that there are multiple viable options for it.

This is almost spot on the kind of build I was looking for for a major NPC/Villain of my next camp.  Only trouble I have, he's supposed to be a tiefling, any tips on retooling the build to better fit there? 

As promised, here's my thoughts on playing this build from 1-4:

Party:

Changeling Assassin
Gnome Swarm Druid
Genasi Wizard/Swordmage hybrid
Shardmind Killswitch (Me)

We're playing in the Planescape setting.

Telepathy is awesome, from a fluff standpoint as well as party usefulness. I'm roleplaying my character as something of a combat computer construct, so we use telepathy to set up a local communication "network" which allows us to communicate silently with each other in dungeons and during social checks. I roleplay DtS and Powerful Warning as a HUD that pops up on the other characters' vision, which is fun. I'm having to do a bit of roleplaying on communicating with creatures that don't speak my language using telepathy, but it's totally workable by describing pictures that I send them. +2 on History and Arcana is very, very nice. Being a construct and all that comes with that is going to own at some point as well, especially since the setting is likely to involve hostile environments.

For racial feats, there's some fun choices, if I can find the slots for them. "Expanded Fragments" for Telepathy 15 and We Were Once One to grant saving throws when I spend a healing surge are going to be pretty sweet, especially since I traded Swift Mender for Arcane Mutterings. Psychic Focus is an obvious winner once I get my Mindiron Crossbow.

Since we're playing in Planescape, and the Assassin took up with a faction that allows him to use all swords (Bastard Sword wielding assassin FTW), but causes him to resist healing, which means I have to attack vs. Will to heal him. Resistive admixture has been an unexpected and welcome means to bypass that restriction.

In short, combining the extreme out-of-combat usefulness of the Shardmind with the extreme in-combat usefulness of Killswitch is turning out to be a very potent combination.

Quick question: I would like to get to 13 Wis so I can get the Learned Spellcaster MC Feat for Religion and Ritual Casting. Do I get anything out of Wis besides that, or is it wasted?

I noticed Killswitch doesn't really need Crossbow Caster during heroic tier. None of his powers are Implement powers.  Except Thundering Armor.   If you have drop the extra at-will and go with heroic effort of course.  Then you have versitile expertise at level 1 and skip Crossbow Caster.  +9 attack at level 1 is pretty awesome.    

awesome build btw.

The only two implement powers the build really ever has are in heroic and I don't know that a lot of people even take them anymore. Dropping Static Shell and Thundering Armor will let you just take Crossbow Expertise which is a pretty good deal.

I know Auspex rarely haunts these forums, but after playing Killswitch at level 5 in LFR ill throw out my observations

1. Encounter Powers-You usually have to choose to use these are either defensive or offensive, rarely do you get the perfect opportunity to use them as both. I would lean towards toward offensive unless your party is getting slaughtered.

2. At-wills-Thundering Armor is certainly useful. Especially if you sometimes find yourself in tight combat, a burst power is very useful, and the push one is also surprisingly useful (made a wolf fall down a 30 ft. well)

3. Punishing Eye=win

4. Thundering Armor is even more useful because of Magic Weapon. Here's why: you usually don't play at distance, you play near melee, and I believe this is where you SHOULD play. Because you buff party members with Magic Weapon, you should be adjacent when using it. Sure, you could only buff ranged casters and such, but buffing the Barbarian last night proved especially potent.

Just my thoughts, great build and great fun to play.

Punishing Eye is an implement power as well, I'd stick with Crossbow Caster

May 3, 2011 -- 6:47PM, Bob_Ghengis_Khan wrote:

Punishing Eye is an implement power as well, I'd stick with Crossbow Caster

True, but it doesn't have an attack or damage roll, so it doesn't actually benefit from having one and you aren't required to have one to use the power.

From the Implement(Power) entry in the compendium:

" You can use implement powers without an implement, and wielding a nonmagical implement confers no benefit. If you wield a magic implement, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of implement powers you use through it" 

I have probably glanced over that line a million times, and it never registered. I have always thought you needed an implement to use an implement power. Thank you.

Just noticed something today. Spell Commander lets you use a Crossbow as an implement for ranged artificer attack powers. Does Thundering Armor count? (I assume it does not since it is a Close Burst)

Question:

Mindiron crossbow +psychic lock. 

Is there some type of ruling that says the mindiron changes the power or adds the psychic keyword to the killswitch powers?  We are trying to figue out how this works under the rules based on the fact that the mindiron power isn't "technically" hitting the person but rather just changing the damage.

Trying to work this out. 

THX for the help!

Damage types confer keywords.  Making half of the damage psychic gives the power the psychic keyword.

If you are looking for the specific rules reference, it was clarified in PHB3, pg 215 under Changing Damage Types.

Forgive me if you've heard this question already...

How did you calculate such a large initiative?  I keep coming up short... 

Jun 15, 2011 -- 4:13PM, Crash55 wrote:

Forgive me if you've heard this question already...

How did you calculate such a large initiative?  I keep coming up short... 

I'm coming up 2 short on his 'naked' level 30 build.

+15 for half level
+10 from his int mod via Combat Commander
+8 from Superior Init 
+1 from Dex

For a total of +34 and he lists it as +36. There are a couple +1 init backgrounds and he doesn't have a background listed, so that might account for half of it. Not sure after that. 

Jun 15, 2011 -- 4:49PM, rjsilverthorn wrote:

Jun 15, 2011 -- 4:13PM, Crash55 wrote:

Forgive me if you've heard this question already...

How did you calculate such a large initiative?  I keep coming up short... 

I'm coming up 2 short on his 'naked' level 30 build.

+15 for half level
+10 from his int mod via Combat Commander
+8 from Superior Init 
+1 from Dex

For a total of +34 and he lists it as +36. There are a couple +1 init backgrounds and he doesn't have a background listed, so that might account for half of it. Not sure after that. 

The armor used (+6 Feytouched Starleather) confers an item bonus to initiative equal to its enhancement bonus.

-Ithreul 

Jun 15, 2011 -- 5:51PM, Ithreul wrote:

Jun 15, 2011 -- 4:49PM, rjsilverthorn wrote:

Jun 15, 2011 -- 4:13PM, Crash55 wrote:

Forgive me if you've heard this question already...

How did you calculate such a large initiative?  I keep coming up short... 

I'm coming up 2 short on his 'naked' level 30 build.

+15 for half level
+10 from his int mod via Combat Commander
+8 from Superior Init 
+1 from Dex

For a total of +34 and he lists it as +36. There are a couple +1 init backgrounds and he doesn't have a background listed, so that might account for half of it. Not sure after that. 

The armor used (+6 Feytouched Starleather) confers an item bonus to initiative equal to its enhancement bonus.

-Ithreul 

 That is factored into his normal build snapshot, but the level 30 "naked" build specifies init without items.

May 28, 2011 -- 4:41PM, Bob_Ghengis_Khan wrote:

Just noticed something today. Spell Commander lets you use a Crossbow as an implement for ranged artificer attack powers. Does Thundering Armor count? (I assume it does not since it is a Close Burst)

Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this.  It doesn't look like you can use your crossbow as an implement for Thundering Armor (after training out of Crossbow Caster).

I believe the L11 feature of spell commander allows you do this (which is why he retrains it at that level).

Aug 17, 2011 -- 3:30PM, Gryphyx wrote:

I believe the L11 feature of spell commander allows you do this (which is why he retrains it at that level.

Yeah, but as the guy I quoted mentioned, it only works for ranged powers, and Thundering Armor is a close burst....

Arcane Weaponmaster (11th level): You can use a bow or crossbow  as an implement for ranged artificer attack powers. When you do so,  increase the range of those powers by 5.

well I'll be... I think you're right.  Well for what it's worth, I've played this build at low levels a decent amount and I think I've had to use that power twice in maybe 20 sessions.

I think the only other implement power in the build is Static Shell which won't work either since it is a close burst power too...

There was talk earlier in the thread of humans ditching the third at-will (Thunderous Armor, plus any other implement powers) for Heroic Effort, and taking Crossbow Expertise instead of Versatile Expertise.  That also opens up an extra feat during heroic, someone suggested White Lotus Enervation (-1 to AC to anything you hit w/ Magic Weapon).

Given that it doesn't look like the crossbow can actually be used as an implement for any of the chosen implement powers past heroic, I think this is definitely the way to go.

Hmm, if we aren't using the 3rd at-will anymore and there is a feat free, I wonder if another race might not be a better choice. Warforged are Con/Int now and have access to some nice feat support.

Heroic Effort is a perfectly decent choice in place of a third at-will.

Yeah, I like Heroic Effort.  As Auspex mentioned when they were discussing it earlier the best use is probably with Spell Tracer if it misses.

But Warforged is probably a good option too.  You lose a feat though which is a bit of a hit, but you gain a little Con and perhaps some survivability.  I'm not sure if that fits the Killswitch idea though, the human power is more killy. 

I also like HE over Thundering armor for my killswitch and the noble theme for the level 10 utility power it really sets up pre-team monster novas.

I was looking for a theme for my level 4 Killswitch variant, and went with Fey Beast Tamer, grabbed the Owlbear, to stack even more damage, and give an accuracy boost through combat advantage at level 5.  The only problem is that it becomes even more painful on action usage.  Anyone have alternative suggestions? 

Jan 26, 2012 -- 1:47PM, obclhorn wrote:

I was looking for a theme for my level 4 Killswitch variant, and went with Fey Beast Tamer, grabbed the Owlbear, to stack even more damage, and give an accuracy boost through combat advantage at level 5.  The only problem is that it becomes even more painful on action usage.  Anyone have alternative suggestions? 

For purely mechanical crunch, the Fey beast tamer/owlbear seems to be the way to go.  I personally went Scholar for my 20th level variant (it's in a home game, so we actually roleplay) because knowing ALL languages is just stupidly nice from a fluff standpoint.  the hard monster check for added defense and damage is nice as well.  Order adept was interesting too, +2 to will is always nice. 

If you use Fortune Cards, I've toyed around with Fatedancer. There is an attack card that lets you expend a higher level daily power when you use a daily power to keep the daily power you used available. What this means for Killswitch is that he can use Punishing Eye twice, that the expense of his lackluster 5th level daily. Fatedancer allows you to grab that card from wherever it is in your deck at 10th level.

But I'm probably going to train out of it. It's not really in character for my coward.

Jan 26, 2012 -- 1:47PM, obclhorn wrote:

I was looking for a theme for my level 4 Killswitch variant, and went with Fey Beast Tamer, grabbed the Owlbear, to stack even more damage, and give an accuracy boost through combat advantage at level 5.  The only problem is that it becomes even more painful on action usage.  Anyone have alternative suggestions? 

I picked the Owlbear for my Killswitch as well.  Keep in mind that the Owlbear and Magic Weapon both provide a power bonus to damage, so they don't stack.  However, you can benefit from your Owlbear damage bonus, and anyone who didn't get your Magic Weapon bonus can get your Owlbear bonus instead.  So even though it doesn't stack with Magic Weapon I think its still pretty nice.

Oh, and it really shouldn't be a drain on your actions, all your Owlbear needs to do is move around, and it can move whenever you spend a move action.  It also gives you an actual somewhat threatening Opportunity Action, and works as another meat shield between the enemies and you.  Overall, great pick for Killswitch.

If you don't want a compantion, Scholar (as was mentioned, for both the RP and the knowledge-based Int-mod damage bonus) and Noble (gives you another way to shift allies) are both good options as well.

So I want to play a variant of this, mostly because my DM doesn't like hybriding. How viable is this combination going to Artificer/Warlord. I should be able to pick up the right powers, other than the at will (would be picked up through a half-elf). This lowers the int rating a bit, as well as Fight On. It also eats up a few feats (Warlord Multiclass, Novice Power, Acolyte power, Battle Instructor, and Versatile Master), but the frame seems to have room to support it. Would building it this way still be strong. Obsviously it would be stronger as the hybrid version, but I love this idea and can't use the hybrid version.

Using a repeating crossbow (until I find time to pick up the feat for Superior crossbow and speed loader), a half elf. I have to put off a few thing I'd rather not. Any tips to make it flow better?

STR: 13, Con 15, DEX 10, INT 18, WIS 12, CHA 8 

Level 1: Versatile Expertise
Level 2: Student of Battle
Level 4: Novice Power
Level 6: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 21)
Level 8: Acolyte Power
Level 10: Battle Instructor
Level 11: Combat Commander
Level 12: Versatile Master
Level 14: Enhanced Resistive Formula
Level 16: Danger Sense
Level 18: Improved Defenses
Level 20: Weapon Focus (Crossbow)
Level 21: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 22: Epic Will
Level 24: 
Level 26: 
Level 28: 
Level 30:  

For what it's worth I find that I rarely, if ever, use direct the strike.  Magic Weapon is just SUCH a nice at-will with the built in bonus to hit, granting +1/+stat to dmg to adj allies.  It all depends on party makeup of course, but you may be able to ditch Versatile master to free up a feat.

Are you the party's main healer, or a pseudo striker/enabler?

Mar 9, 2012 -- 8:14AM, jedi123 wrote:

So I want to play a variant of this, mostly because my DM doesn't like hybriding. How viable is this combination going to Artificer/Warlord. I should be able to pick up the right powers, other than the at will (would be picked up through a half-elf). This lowers the int rating a bit, as well as Fight On. It also eats up a few feats (Warlord Multiclass, Novice Power, Acolyte power, Battle Instructor, and Versatile Master), but the frame seems to have room to support it. Would building it this way still be strong. Obsviously it would be stronger as the hybrid version, but I love this idea and can't use the hybrid version.

Using a repeating crossbow (until I find time to pick up the feat for Superior crossbow and speed loader), a half elf. I have to put off a few thing I'd rather not. Any tips to make it flow better?

STR: 13, Con 15, DEX 10, INT 18, WIS 12, CHA 8 

Level 1: Versatile Expertise
Level 2: Student of Battle
Level 4: Novice Power
Level 6: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 21)
Level 8: Acolyte Power
Level 10: Battle Instructor
Level 11: Combat Commander
Level 12: Versatile Master
Level 14: Enhanced Resistive Formula
Level 16: Danger Sense
Level 18: Improved Defenses
Level 20: Weapon Focus (Crossbow)
Level 21: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 22: Epic Will
Level 24: 
Level 26: 
Level 28: 
Level 30:  

Not worth it. It'd be better to play a straight Warlord.

I've already given up on trying to make a flavorful and effective Leader for my severely inefficient group, when suddenly this build pops up again. Perfect.
But I'll need a little help with adjusting the build to my tastes.

First issue: I want to mix it up in melee. That means I'll start with the Item Neutral & Strong Basic Attack variant.
Also, I'm particular to Battlefront Leader. Heavy Shield + Blade is just my style, and who knows, maybe I can talk my DM into giving me my old Warblade's Drachenbiss sword for a bit of sorta nostalgia.

Second issue: My group...
Since my DM is a bit... je ne sais meow, the rest of the party is pretty much restricted to PHB and his homebrew stuff.
We've got:
- a Dwarf Baladin with serious durability issues and a biiig axe
- a tactically inept Eladrin Brutal Scoundrel with Chronic Backstabbing Disorder (thank Corellon, not literally) and Demonic Possession
- and a mysterious, as of yet unknown Wizard, probably with Gish tendencies.

So, is this build still viable?
I'm starting at level 3 and the magic equipment carried over from my previous character consists of a Duelist's something and Bracers of Defense.

Mar 9, 2012 -- 8:39AM, faradhii wrote:

For what it's worth I find that I rarely, if ever, use direct the strike.  Magic Weapon is just SUCH a nice at-will with the built in bonus to hit, granting +1/+stat to dmg to adj allies.  It all depends on party makeup of course, but you may be able to ditch Versatile master to free up a feat.

Are you the party's main healer, or a pseudo striker/enabler?

Main healer (which is why I'm forgoing the Superior Corssbow for a while if I take it at all), but the party is so far all arcane which makes the spell commander path very appealing. Right now it's a Dragonborn Elemental Hexblade (a design I passed onto a friend since they enjoyed it so much and I want to see how the plan works out) and a Tiefling Enchanter Mage (the other people haven't really decided what they are playing yet, but one was interested in the swordmage, and the other wasn't really sure). So the team looks to be able to make good use of the action ability of the spell commander (especially with the Sidhe lord theme utility 2 opened up through half elf). I realize that this build loses some of the healing ability, and I may need to re prioratize some of the healing feats to shore it up. 

If this particular idea is too much I may instead step back and focus on the Sidhe Lord/Spell Commander interaction. Giving a party member a free action attack, and then giving everyone a free action, doesn't seem like a bad combination. If using half elf i can also have Direct the strike (with or without versatile master) for some extra enabling. I could possibly switch DtA for some healing power, but I don't know of many the would line up with the stats for this build. 

Thanks for the clarification on the Direct the Attack, I think I may drop Versatile Master in that case and free things up a bit.



 

I've a question. I am thinking of making a Killswitch for an upcoming Lair Assault, the level 6 tyrantclaw adventure. Currently our party is sitting at a goblin Sha'ir, a goblin Vampire and two unknowns. One being myself and another who I've got no clue about. 

Would a Killswitch be decent for this party? The unknown would probably be a defender.

Another question. How vital is human to this mix. Since Crossbow Casting isn't needed at such a low level I was thinking of going Warforged to buff my survivability a bit more with con boosts and the small heal they have as a minor action. Is it viable or would a different leader be recommended for this party?

Warforged would work nicely.  I've run a melee variant of Killswitch using the Shoulderbow enchant for a hand crossbow, and a longspear (or greatspear depending on feat loadout) - equally, a Hungry Greatspear and an MC or theme (elemental initiate) for a handsfree implement would work just as well, but I went with the Shoulderbow for thematic reasons (I am Iron Gnome...).  The accuracy hit is kinda painful, but it's great fun.

However, you need a (better) striker in that party.  If you can, persuade the Vampire to play a class that actually works properly, especially in Lair Assault...

Mar 9, 2012 -- 11:00AM, jedi123 wrote:

Mar 9, 2012 -- 8:39AM, faradhii wrote:

For what it's worth I find that I rarely, if ever, use direct the strike.  Magic Weapon is just SUCH a nice at-will with the built in bonus to hit, granting +1/+stat to dmg to adj allies.  It all depends on party makeup of course, but you may be able to ditch Versatile master to free up a feat.

Are you the party's main healer, or a pseudo striker/enabler?

Main healer (which is why I'm forgoing the Superior Corssbow for a while if I take it at all), but the party is so far all arcane which makes the spell commander path very appealing. Right now it's a Dragonborn Elemental Hexblade (a design I passed onto a friend since they enjoyed it so much and I want to see how the plan works out) and a Tiefling Enchanter Mage (the other people haven't really decided what they are playing yet, but one was interested in the swordmage, and the other wasn't really sure). So the team looks to be able to make good use of the action ability of the spell commander (especially with the Sidhe lord theme utility 2 opened up through half elf). I realize that this build loses some of the healing ability, and I may need to re prioratize some of the healing feats to shore it up. 

If this particular idea is too much I may instead step back and focus on the Sidhe Lord/Spell Commander interaction. Giving a party member a free action attack, and then giving everyone a free action, doesn't seem like a bad combination. If using half elf i can also have Direct the strike (with or without versatile master) for some extra enabling. I could possibly switch DtA for some healing power, but I don't know of many the would line up with the stats for this build. 

Thanks for the clarification on the Direct the Attack, I think I may drop Versatile Master in that case and free things up a bit.



 

That party makeup is perfect for you and I would definitely drop versatile master to free up the feat.  what you have left is:

Turn 1: Your initiative should be through the roof (one of the points of this build) so you go first, or have allies delay a bit.  All allies are in a nice close burst formation with you in the center adjacent to everyone. (carry a wolfen weapon if allowed to stop surprise) Minor Action Enhanced resistive on your front liners, hopefully you have shared valor to get 1/2 the THP.  Standard Action: Magic weapon giving +1/+stat to the whole party.  Action Point. On AP grant the Arcane striker with the best at-will a nice free attack, enhace it for a free action with alter spell power.  Second Standard action: Spell Tracer giving the same guy another free shot.  Move action:  Reorient the axis to get out of that nasty burts 1 formation.  Free action: raise middle finger at the BBEG.

But, really, what Alcestis said.  This build is really meant for hybriding.  Go straight warlord with heavy thrown for similar flavor.

What's the big appeal of the Spell Commander for Killswitches? Why that over Battle Engineer? Is it mainly for the extra attacks used when AP'ing? Or is there significantly more to it than that? Does a Killswitch/Battle-Eng work?

I have to admit that I've not really explored beyond 16th level, but maybe there are implement powers later that you don't want to miss out on? I could see that as another argument for SC, but then again, Xbow Caster surely does the same thing?

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I haven't found the time to read through all 43 pages and the site-search here sucks.

It's the extra attacks, and the better bow-as-implement feature.

Is that feature being used anymore? The only implement power the original build had was Thundering Armor, which didn't work with Arcane Weaponmaster because it was a close power. 

Spell commander allows you to front-load more damage.  Killswitch is all about winning encounters as quickly as possible, with huge init bonuses, extra attacks, and damage and hit bonuses.  Spell Tracer and the AP feature allow you to pop off two extra attacks in the first round.

Is Killswitch still considered up to date? Has anything major come out that would have changed the build any? Or made it fall signifigantly behind?

Punishing Eye is a ranged implement power, and thus Spell Commander allows you to extend the range from 5 to 10 using your crossbow as an implement. It also extends the leash of how far you can be from your Punishing Eye, without it fading from existance, from 5 to 10.

That gets to be a big help on some paragon maps.

Apr 11, 2012 -- 7:37AM, blackhaw wrote:

Is Killswitch still considered up to date? Has anything major come out that would have changed the build any? Or made it fall signifigantly behind?

It's probably got some updating needed, but the core chassis is still buff as hell.

There are some interesting new powers/feats that came out in Dragon (insert issue number here).  Check out Zathris' potent potables.

Additional to that, I picked up superior will and superior reflexes (Con builds may want superior fortitude though it isn't AS good) I also like resilient focus, +2 to all saves is very nice.

This is the version that I've been using in LFR.

Spoiler: Show

Gale Force Infusion is probably a bit off the standard build, but I was finding that I actually had more pressure on my immediate action than my standard action, and there were plenty of times that Magic Weapon wasn't a great choice. GFI gives a great AC bonus to the defender, gives you some nice ability to slide things around, and can be a nice minion popper if that's what you need. Sometimes I prefer versatilitiy to pure optimization.

The magic items aren't really optimized at all. There's some good stuff in there, obviously, but there are also some choices (Boots of Dancing, Helm of Hidden Horrors) that I specifically took just because they were in character.

I think that if you take Eldritch Fusillade Expertise you can drop Speed Loader, so that frees up a feat slot for you.

Wow, I haven't seen Wesley for a long time!!  1 recommendation that I don't see often that I use on my level 7 killswitch.  Powerful Warning, mage's weapon, and hybrid talent for the wisdom-based warlord.  Having 20int/18wis means powerful warning is quite solid and magic weapon is still huge and usually hits.

Heya Matt...long time no skype. :-)

I found I was typically using Powerful Warning for the extra attack (Wesley is a non-insightful build, and his Wisdom is not good.) Upon leveling up to 13, I switched it out for Blade Burst Trap. It doesn't prevent hits, but having the defender/melee striker smack and daze every target next to him is hilarious.

Occasionally I've even gotten lucky and sprung it on a monster's minor action set-up attack, which is hilarious, because the daze bones their whole turn.

The hybrid talent I use is for the artificer's temps on daily magic item use (can't remember the feature name.) At late paragon, it's good with everyone starting to fill out magic item slots with useful dailies, and occasionally running into someone with Dice of Auspicious Fortune lets them start the first encounter with temps.

Nov 5, 2012 -- 11:28PM, NewAtThis wrote:

I think that if you take Eldritch Fusillade Expertise you can drop Speed Loader, so that frees up a feat slot for you.

Eldritch Fusillade Expertise lets you dual-wield a wand + crossbow and treat the wand hand as empty for reloading purposes.  It doesn't let you load as a free action (Speed Loader).  (I'd love to be wrong on this.)

I'm using a pixie version of the this, so if I understand the size rules correctly, means the only crossbow I can use is a hand crossbow?  


Would I be able to use dual-implement Spellcaster to dual-wield hand crossbows for Magic Weapon?  Or am I going to get tangled up in reloading, or need to get something like the Rogues' Two-fisted Shooter?  I'm MC bard right now, and would like to keep that ... are there other ways to get a similar ability?

Nov 9, 2012 -- 9:21AM, entropiccanuck wrote:

Nov 5, 2012 -- 11:28PM, NewAtThis wrote:

I think that if you take Eldritch Fusillade Expertise you can drop Speed Loader, so that frees up a feat slot for you.

Eldritch Fusillade Expertise lets you dual-wield a wand + crossbow and treat the wand hand as empty for reloading purposes.  It doesn't let you load as a free action (Speed Loader).  (I'd love to be wrong on this.)

I'm using a pixie version of the this, so if I understand the size rules correctly, means the only crossbow I can use is a hand crossbow?  


Would I be able to use dual-implement Spellcaster to dual-wield hand crossbows for Magic Weapon?  Or am I going to get tangled up in reloading, or need to get something like the Rogues' Two-fisted Shooter?  I'm MC bard right now, and would like to keep that ... are there other ways to get a similar ability?

Congrats, you are wrong: 

    You can also draw or stow a wand once per round as a free action on your turn, and you can load a crossbow as a free action. 

I know that a lot of those feats were changed after they were initially published, so you may be thinking of the original version.

Neat - I'll have to switch over to that. Thanks!

EDIT - Never mind, it won't work, at least not for me. It requires the Crossbow Caster feat...but I trained out of that feat when I took Spell Commander PP.

Sorry if this has been covered in earlier post but haven't gone through every page.
Is there a reason that none of the builds on the first page have a Lvl 17 encounter power listed??? Or am I missing something

Feb 13, 2013 -- 6:19PM, TheSpecters wrote:

Sorry if this has been covered in earlier post but haven't gone through every page.
Is there a reason that none of the builds on the first page have a Lvl 17 encounter power listed??? Or am I missing something

They kept an earlier level power.  One of the off-turn attacks, I think.

What about picking Battle Engineer as a PP instead? I just don't like to go Versatile Expertise if there's the Eldritch one. Spell Commander's one hell of a PP, but i don't like that it's basically focused on arcane parties, as well as it's focussed on ranged/caster "Deathballs", so melee Characters will only profit in the first round (ye, it's the most important one) and only IF the Spell Commander goes first. I see the potential, but ain't the Battle Engineer an option equal in viabilty? Discuss, please. 
Oh, and one question about Crossbow Caster: Is the range of ranged implement powers also increased to the range of the crossbow? I don't think so, but i had to ask, cause it would be so cheesy.

Btw: This and the Headspin build are so badass, it's hard not to put one of em in a party. I'm really impressed. 

Feb 16, 2013 -- 3:50AM, pinkisthenewred wrote:

What about picking Battle Engineer as a PP instead? I just don't like to go Versatile Expertise if there's the Eldritch one. Spell Commander's one hell of a PP, but i don't like that it's basically focused on arcane parties, as well as it's focussed on ranged/caster "Deathballs", so melee Characters will only profit in the first round (ye, it's the most important one) and only IF the Spell Commander goes first. I see the potential, but ain't the Battle Engineer an option equal in viabilty? Discuss, please. 
Oh, and one question about Crossbow Caster: Is the range of ranged implement powers also increased to the range of the crossbow? I don't think so, but i had to ask, cause it would be so cheesy.

Btw: This and the Headspin build are so badass, it's hard not to put one of em in a party. I'm really impressed. 

Have you looked at the initiative bonus on this build?  If you don't go before team monster, you've done something horridly wrong or your DM is nerfing it on purpose.

When did Headspin get involved? Are we just slobbering over builds now?
The reason this build doesn't have new stuff is because its old. Quite the shocker I know, but thems the reality. 

Yeah, this build is very long in the tooth now.  That being said, the basic framework is still VERY solid.  I've got one I'm playing now that jsut hit 18th level.  I've subbed in superior will, lightning reflexes and the base line fortitude bolster instead of improved defenses, resilient focus for +2 saves, I'm playing a wisdom based Deva build for flavor reasons so I picked up battle intuition (wis +2 instead of dex for init).  I kept going first so regularly that I finally ditched danger sense because it was overkill.  Multi-classing mage for more  flavor reason/ritual casting let me hold a pre nerf orb of nimble thoughts to double dip intelligence.  Heck, even post nerf at this point I'd have a +4 orb.

Point being going first should NOT be an issue.

+1.

I played this build at level 4 with a sub-optimized party and we still managed to down an ogre and his retinue of orcs. Killswitch is very badass.

Outside of obvious choices like Swift Mender, is there a recent addition to Killswitch that helps with save enabling?

Make your party destroy the encounter before they suffer any save ends effects?

Dragonmark of healing is still your best bet assuming it's allowed.  I'll typically use swift mender first, then start tossing the heals that also grant saves. or vice versa depending on monster damage output.  Or, as Fardiz said, kill/lockdown the monsters so they are impotent meatbags! 

Wouldn't Deva/Soul of the World with Int/Wis be better? Or is there a reason to go Con/Int over Wis/Int i don't see? Or was SoTW implemented after this build was written?

Mar 11, 2013 -- 1:58PM, pinkisthenewred wrote:

Wouldn't Deva/Soul of the World with Int/Wis be better? Or is there a reason to go Con/Int over Wis/Int i don't see? Or was SoTW implemented after this build was written?

HP and surges. Also resistive formula is generally the better healing infusion. Also the OP was a fan of using Thundering Armor (which, all things considered, is pretty good, but underrated here).

Con is because Surges and having a decent THP bomb. Auspex was a big fan of how characters looked on paper, not how they actually played, his tactical acuity was low but was very good at selling builds for what they were specifically good at and glossing over the weak points.

I don't know exact dates of SotW or the other blatantly superior ED options (could look it up, but I don't care that much) but the real issue is the large number of feats, items, and powers that have come out since this build was released, I mean, he doesn't even have Tactician's Ringmail. The Optimal combinations are all different from what this build does at this point, I mean, the claim of "10 attacks in 2 rounds" is really just a bit silly when it's fairly obvious at this point that you would do something more like 4 Winds-Mantle-GMW-AP BoMM Hail of Steel off-turn at the very least A Plan Comes Together as a Tiefling Warmaster, granting 9 attacks in the first round (if you really want to burn all your Encounter powers in round 1 you can have an Artificer IA, making it 10 attacks).

I don't actually think SoTW is the most optimized ED.
Wis is not the stronger Artificer Secondary thanks to the Sigil Dailies, unless you get up to Epic; and you'll note (and something I fully support) that Auspex's goal was "Be truly 'optimal' from Level 1 through Level 30", I don't build for level 26-30 because that's not where the game is played, even if you are that level.
You're already a Warlord so you have "minimum 2 allies make attacks" as every encounter power option there, and you can't get rid of your Arti encounter power (the downside of Hybrids) which is either going to be a rather fantastic tripple-hit or an IA anyway.
Leaders don't gain as much from most racial powers/feats unless there's something amazing I'm forgetting, if I were Deva on this build, I'd go Tiefling for Belial and either Elf or Human for Accuracy (since you'll Commander's Memory your own MoatL) or Shadar-Kai for teleport+insub.

Since we're having this discussion, I'd go Battle Engineer or Battle Captain, Warmaster or Archmage ED (Haste Sigil as an Encounter Power is good). Tiefling seems the race of choice to me (saving the MC feat to gain Mantle and has other relevant leader feats) but Hobgoblin is a serious contender for actual play.

If I were just building for level 30, Lorekeeper or Archmage without so much as a glance back.

Hmm, i see. Would be cool, if someone updated this build.

Why? Just update it yourself. It doesn't need that many tweaks, and people often adapt it to their personal preferences.

Mar 11, 2013 -- 4:01PM, zelink551 wrote:

Why? Just update it yourself. It doesn't need that many tweaks, and people often adapt it to their personal preferences.

I don't think you appreciate how lazy some people are at building characters, and need other people to not only tell them "take x instead of y" but also to fully build it out so they don't have to do any work.

Of course, the people that behave like this also aren't going to understand the finer points of good builds for when things actually do get challenging, which is why we heard such insanity as "sorcerer's are bad strikers" and "swordmages aren't good at dealing damage" meanwhile the "easy broken" builds like rebreather and brutal barrage spam get massive play because you don't have to have any level of system mastery to play them.

Mar 11, 2013 -- 5:22PM, Zathris wrote:

Mar 11, 2013 -- 4:01PM, zelink551 wrote:

Why? Just update it yourself. It doesn't need that many tweaks, and people often adapt it to their personal preferences.

I don't think you appreciate how lazy some people are at building characters, and need other people to not only tell them "take x instead of y" but also to fully build it out so they don't have to do any work.

Of course, the people that behave like this also aren't going to understand the finer points of good builds for when things actually do get challenging, which is why we heard such insanity as "sorcerer's are bad strikers" and "swordmages aren't good at dealing damage" meanwhile the "easy broken" builds like rebreather and brutal barrage spam get massive play because you don't have to have any level of system mastery to play them.

Your words.
They hurt me.

And they hurt Sparky.  I'll have to use my new fly speed to fly away from you... 

Eldritch Fusillade Expertise for starters, which would save a feat too.

Add a theme to taste.

Hullo all,

I was wondering what thoughts people might have about the below build, based primarily around the Killswitch frame here, and any tips people might have. Am relatively new to building and this one will be played in a campaign with some quite stringent restrictions - the only arcane class allowed is Artificer and the only other classes allowed must be martial or psionic. I'll be playing alongside a Tiefling Ardent, a Shardmind Psion, a Human Brawler Fighter and a Drow Executioner (don't know the specifics of any of their builds).
 
In terms of the resoning behind the changes I've made - I went for the Drow Long Knife and an implement in order that, if necessary, I could hold my own in melee as well as at range (which will hopefully give me the versatility to use MW in support of the frontliners), and so added in tail slide for a bit of 'get out of trouble' mobility when I need it. 

Given I won't be alongside any other arcane classes a lot of SCs features become a bit obsolete, and I thought maybe TH made for a decent replacement - although I know this means losing the nova round, I figure something similar might be achievable, albeit later, with Addling Pattern, which depending on situation could deliver as many as five attacks in the round (in epic, one from minor action QS:MW, standard MW, Action Point, Addling Pattern against two targets, with bonus damage, and then two free basic attacks if those targets choose to attack) - I'd be especially interested to know if this is likely to be viable or if people think I'm better off going for SC despite the loss of some utility due to the campaign restrictions? Or if there's something I've missed (likely) that might help TH synergise well the generate-lots-of-attacks side of the KS build. 

I've just gone up as far as lvl 21 at the second - don't really have any experience in building at epic, and before I dive in thought I'd see if people thought this has any legs at all...   

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/help/ideas!

Spoiler: Show

 

Mar 11, 2013 -- 5:33PM, TheMalteseFalchion wrote:

Eldritch Fusillade Expertise for starters, which would save a feat too.

Add a theme to taste.

This requires Crossbow Caster as a prereq and the original build trains out of this, so people will need to tweak their heroic feats a bit.

it retrains out because the paragon path gives the same thing as a L11 feature.  However since Eldritch Fusillade Expertise gives basically 2 feats in one (speed loader + expertise for both crossbows and wands) you wouldn't want to retrain it out.  Which opens up other options for Paragon Path's since you no longer require the one the original build takes.  It's a good one don't get me wrong, but it's no longer required.