Community

Meh.

I would've liked to see the Heir of Siberys as a Paragon Path. Fits better into the world that way. Heirs of Siberys aren't unheard of in the game-world, so you might have a handful on Khorvaire in any given generation. So that means there are un-named epic-level NPCs just scooting about on Khorvaire? That doesn't sound right.

Yes yes, NPCs and PCs are built differently these days, but if the Siberys mark is only represented in the rules by Epic-tier elements, it goes to figure that NPCs wont have Siberys marks until epic either.

Plus having the Heir of Siberys as a paragon path would've made you choose between a house-specific path like the ones in the EPG, or getting a Siberys mark. It would've been an interesting choice, or an appealing alternative if you don't like your mark's specific p-path. (For instance, if you have the Mark of Warding and want to focus on it for your p-path, but don't like the sneaky aspects of the Ghorad'din, you take Heir of Siberys instead.)
This trade-off would have been much more in keeping with 3.5's decision to get normal marks or wait for the Siberys one, even if the prerequisite of not having a previous mark is removed from Hier of Siberys.

But yeah, I'm mainly annoyed by suddenly vaulting something that was pretty solidly paragon-tier into Epic. I'm pretty amazed this article was written by James Wyatt, as I thought he would have understood the place of the Siberys mark in the world: Rare, certainly, but not equal in terms to, say being Galifar the First reborn (Legendary Sovereign epic destiny), single-handedly healing the Mournland (Mourland Savior epic destiny), ascending to join the Sovereign Host (Demigod or any of the Avatar epic destinies), etc. etc. etc.
I mean, even in Mr. Wyatt's own books, Gavin's epic destiny was decidedly NOT Heir of Siberys, it was being the Storm Dragon (Which was made clear as not just being a Siberys Mark of Storm).

Bah. Yeah, anyway, I guess this rant sums up as : Shoulda been a paragon path.

I understand the thinking, but I disagree with shoehorning Siberys marks into a 4e mindset that way. There are any number of ways of making Siberys marks feel different and special as compared to other marks. Say, like a unique Ritual attached to each Siberys mark that can only be performed if you have the Siberys mark. Have this be the 16th level ability of the Paragon Path.

Besides, I look at the epic destiny utilties given to each Siberys Mark and I'm fairly underwhelmed. The Siberys Mark of Storm makes a little zone of difficult terrain and inceased lightning/thunder damage. What is that compared to 3.5's Storm of Vengence? The Siberys Mark of Healing doesn't even raise allies from the dead.

It feels like Siberys marks have been delayed for reduced impact.

Heirs of Siberys are rare within the world of Eberron that the novels portray. I think that part of your problem is that the novels are dealing with all of the most atypical characters, so much so that exceptional things seem commonplace. The Heir of Siberys in the Grieving Tree trilogy is described as very rare, rare enough that the mere existence of the Siberys Mark is enough to bargain for a small army of dragonmarked soldiers to assist the heroes. Gavin's Siberys Mark of Storm is similarly rare, and the main reason that it isn't more useful to him in the story is because he is an escaped convict and thought to be a madman. It still comes in handy plenty of times.

In 3.5, a character had to be 13th level before he or she could even take one level of the Heir of Siberys, and the actual mark didn't come until the second level of the prestige class. That's level 14 in 3.5, and a normal prestige class (the paragon path equivalent) generally came available around level 6. It was likely that the Heir of Siberys prestige class followed another prestige class.

Finally, the scale of the powers is going to be different in the different editions. Fly was available at level 5 in 3.5. In 4e, Fly comes at level 16, and it's not as good as it was before. If the effects were translated directly, all the Heirs of Siberys would be horribly overpowered.

I haven't had a chance to read the article yet, but I just wanted to drop by in case anyone from WotC checks in here. I've complained a few times lately that Dark Sun seems to getting a lot more attention before it comes out than Eberron has gotten at any point in 4e. It's nice to see this article added to this month's offerings, and I just wanted to express appreciation to Wizards for including it.

Mechanical discussions of edition-to-edition comparisons aren't as useful in my mind as flavor ones. At level 15 were you taking on Tiamat? No. Was your Hier of Siberys going toe-to-toe with Demogorgon? No. How bout Ancient dragons? Nope! Dorsaine? Dispater? You'd need to be 20+ for that in 3.5. So if you weren't facing epic-flavored encounters with your brand new Siberys mark in 3.5, I think it only fair that you don't in 4e either.

My objection to Hier of Siberys being Epic has much more to do with the comparison of other things in Epic than any mechanical comparison. And Gavin's Epic Destiny was not Hier of Siberys, it was Storm Dragon which was describe as being above and beyond a mere Siberys Mark of Storm. It was something higher and more unique. That's an epic destiny.

In the history of Galifar, there have been dozens of hiers of Siberys. This is indeed very very rare, and a high commodity, something the houses would send assassins after and soldiers to protect. I'm not disputing that.
However, I am disputing that this is Epic-level game material. Assassins and soldiers do not seem like epic threats. What resources do the Houses have to challenge epic-level players? Epic-level assassins? Why is Khorvaire suddenly populated with faceless epic-level mooks and underlings now? We have a quasi-epic-destiny example from historic figures like Tira Miron and Galifar the First, exceptionally influential and powerful people that did great deeds.
Who are all these epic-level Siberys hiers and what have they done to shape Khorvaire? Who are these epic-level mooks that the Houses send after them when they disobey?

The entire story element of Siberys marks just makes more sense if they're Paragon-tier to me. Thats when you can have highly trained assassins and black-ops spooks coming after the PCs.

I mean, look at when the Siberys marks were manifested in the novels. Would you say they pop up in Epic-tier type encounters? Or is it closer to Paragon threats? Gavin isn't powerful enough to face a dragon until he realizes his epic destiny of being the Storm Dragon. Before that, he's merely a Siberys marked heir who deals with pretty solidly paragon encounters. (Escaping Dreadhold is a great example. Do you seriously consider the Kundarak guards at Dreadhold to be epic-tier threats? A garrison of nameless level 21+ soldiers? Or do they make more sense as paragon foes?)


As for the mechanical side of things, I do realize that Storm of Vengeance is not something that could be done using an epic destiny utility. However if it was a Paragon Path, there is more design space to build the Mark around. You'd have an encounter, utility, and daily power to work with. Some marks might not lend themselves immediately to attack powers, but for things like the Mark of Healing or Hospitality you can look to paladin or cleric attack powers that have healing effects tied to them.

I just feel like the entire concept, from mechanics to fluff, just plain works better in Paragon.