Wait, you actually think that a Wizard|Swordmage might have damage or defense issues? Have you ever played EITHER class?
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Wait, you actually think that a Wizard|Swordmage might have damage or defense issues?
Er, no. I know that a Swordmage|Wizard will possess neither the defenses of a Swordmage nor the firepower of a Wizard. There's nothing that the hybrid can do to replace the lost HPs and surges that a pure Swordmage couldn't do at least two levels earlier. There's nothing that the hybrid can field that replaces the simple elegance of Staff Expertise with a Staff of Ruin and probably an offhand Defensive Staff. As awful as that visual may be. ("I'm known by many names, little hobbit. Some call me Gandalf the Daft Skier Who Forgot His Skis.")
Um, aren't those Paragon-tier things? We're not worried about that, remember?
There's a legitimate counterpunch. Technically, I like to plan to L12, with anything beyond that being gravy in my experience. (At L16 the game officially enters four-color mode. I kind of dread that level as a DM, and I'd guess that even relatively healthy campaigns start derailing right about then unless the DM is really dedicated and skilled. The slope gets awfully slippery there.)
In any case, those options all cost feats and are mostly for damage rather than lockdown capabilities.
Oh now, let's not poo-poo damage. Everybody's secondary role should be striker.
Sure, but for most Defenders, feats and paragon paths are precious. Crippling Crush as an example - you're limiting your attacks and doubling up on the same stat for a character who doesn't consistently multi-attack.
Sure, we might not be able to do second wind mass lockdowns. But if we spend a feat, that Fighter|Warden effectively is a Fighter who is at -1 to hit, but has Toughness, Free Action Single Target Mark, a couple of interesting mark options, and access to a solid range of powers and feats - without giving up our MC option.
Nor should we dismiss Combat Superiority, *cough*grappling, the Slow rider on Dooooooooooooooom!!!, etc. I thought I was going to throw Shield Push in that list, but I guess when it comes to the mark's origins, Combat Challenge don't care. Combat Challenge don't give a [redacted]. That is admittedly a nifty feature of mark-triggered feats that should be the envy of every leader|leader out there.
At any rate, I'm not knocking the build. I said it works for me. I'm just not convinced that it offers superior options to a non-hybrid build of either defender. Roughly equal. I can't muster the energy to argue with that. (Tonight, anyway. )
(notes the goalposts being moved... That's the thing - you can take pretty much any hybrid Defender|Defender and be roughly equivalent to a regular Defender in Heroic. And then, you can optimize for weirdness in Paragon. Your complaint is basically that you run into people optimizing for weirdness in Heroic when it doesn't all quite come together or really not understanding the tactics of multi-marking.
Multi-marking is awesome if you understand positioning. The advantage of simply being a tough regular non-hybrid Defender who optimized around damage is that you don't really need to know positioning all that well. You won't control the battle in a way that an optimized Ultimate-style Defender will, but your fellow players won't likely realize that it is a failure of your build when more targets keep getting past you.
Because Dimensional Vortex is an interrupt that's better than Stun.
Oh, no argument. Dimensional Vortex is the Swordmage's crown jewel. WLMR laughed in his face as it flounced out the door in errata. MM3 impugned his defenderhood with its ramped-up damage benchmarks. But he's still got Dimensional Vortex. Can't take that away from the poor schlob. Just don't stare at the hair plugs or crack wise about the red ragtop riding lizard, 'K?
Then again: Color Spray. Maybe it's no instant poor man's Dominate, but the value of hybriding isn't the value of the grafted pieces, but their value minus that of what they replace. Big difference between Dimensional Vortex in a vacuum and Dimensional Vortex as a replacement for Color Spray.
I like Color Spray as a Wizard. But mass daze in a close blast vs. ranged 10 interrupt negate attack and cause damage to the enemy? Weren't you the one worried for the Swordmage|Wizard's survival a second ago? And the Swordmage|Wizard has better hit points and more surges than the Wizard...
And if the mark draws aggro, that's fine. You're standing behind a bunch of characters and you keep moving around and targeting bursts while your friends interpose to create OAs. Basically, you mark, move away and let your friends flank the target. If the target wants to go after you, he takes 2 OAs. If the target doesn't go after you, he triggers your mark.
Crystalline controller tactics 101, sure. They're like going all-in on every poker pot. Works great, till the first time it doesn't. I remain wary. I would envision my PC pulling a Billy Bob Thornton facing off the Mexican firing bayonet squad in "The Alamo." "I got to warn you boys, I'm a screamer."
And remember, we're talking about Heroic here - that's the defined problem set of levels.
Plus two, man. Plus two. If we're really talking strictly heroic, then we really should be talking Essentials. Knight/Warden and a Scout and a Mage. Ooh, no thanks on the Warpriest, but maybe a BCL Cleric even trumps a Warlord. OK, it's not that bad, but still ...
We're not talking strictly heroic. Your point is, if I understand it properly, is that there are a number of awesome hybrid Defender builds, but you've seen people play versions of them that suck in Heroic. And therefore, they're overrated for practical play. My point is, they shouldn't suck in Heroic and if the campaign keeps going, they'll get to that awesome point.
Even Grey Ioun Stone Marker, which looks like it ought to just completely suck in Heroic is at its most basic level an upgrade for the most part to Battlemind for the 1st few levels - because it punishes a shift and then gets a free action shift for possible OAs rather than just follow and grant a possible OA. It still has a Battlemind at-will and Battleminds don't actually get an interrupt option until 7th, which means the one it gets at 3rd is a solid upgrade. Rain of Steel is the obvious 5th level Fighter choice. It isn't very exciting to play until 7th because its options are rather limited, but at the same time, it is perfectly functional at low levels.
That's partially an indictment of how Lightning Rush is really the Battlemind's Defender Class Feature, but that's the point - there simply isn't that much you can do with a Defender at low levels that pushes the boundaries of what is possible, because things don't really start to open up until 7th for any of the classes.
What hybrid Defender|Defenders ought to be good at is engaging multiple targets at once and giving them some hard decisions to make. If the player isn't capable of figuring out who his primary targets ought to be, he's not going to enjoy playing one.
It's entirely anecdotal, but I played a wizard / swordmage through like 7 - 12 and sufficiently screwed up the DM that I got the baleful eye on playing that character any more
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Sure, but for most Defenders, feats and paragon paths are precious. Crippling Crush as an example - you're limiting your attacks and doubling up on the same stat for a character who doesn't consistently multi-attack.
Well, Crippling Crush basically is a big old sign stating, "Next Stop: Son of Mercy." Point taken, but really isn't just about every class cattle-chuted by its limited selection of PPs? At least if one plans to optimize? I actually feel that defenders enjoy the widest selection of premium options in paragon.
That's the thing - you can take pretty much any hybrid Defender|Defender and be roughly equivalent to a regular Defender in Heroic. And then, you can optimize for weirdness in Paragon. Your complaint is basically that you run into people optimizing for weirdness in Heroic when it doesn't all quite come together or really not understanding the tactics of multi-marking.
Actually, my original point way back when was that it doesn't make sense to advertise the Swordmage as a defender because he hybrids so well. He does hybrid relatively well, but the |Wizard result is a controller with a sideline in defender, as I think we both agree. Search and replace with "|Warlock" and "striker" and repeat argument otherwise verbatim.
Are they fun and effective builds? Yea sure, other than that strong tendency to develop late. Do they make the player feel more clever for leveraging the rules in new and interesting ways? Absolutely, and that's all to the good. Are they better defenders than a vanilla brawling or shield Fighter? Mmmmm, I still don't think so.
Then you and I got off on defender|defenders and how much you can get done while still in your hybrid larval stage and the Tulip Bubble of 1637 and I looked up and that damn goalpost was right in front of me. (There's a classic story about the old Chicago Bears juggernaut Bronko Nagurski, who defined the rumbling, stumbling fullback style. On one play he bounced off a couple of defenders then ran into the goalpost, which was literally on the goalline back then, cracking it and officially applying the Dazed condition to himself. So he kept running straight into the Wrigley Field brick wall, splitting his helmet. Staggering back to the sideline, he told a teammate, "That last guy hit me awfully hard." Goalposts, man. Not your friend.)
I like Color Spray as a Wizard. But mass daze in a close blast vs. ranged 10 interrupt negate attack and cause damage to the enemy? Weren't you the one worried for the Swordmage|Wizard's survival a second ago?
Well, yea! Let's be honest, with their lower damage and higher HPs, monster-on-monster violence is not a game changer even with the added Con rider. As awesome as Dimensional Vortex is, much of the time it's only going to action-deny a single target. When multiple ugly things have you in their beetle-browed sights, Color Spray and a good move score are full of win.
And the Swordmage|Wizard has better hit points and more surges than the Wizard...
That's good, 'cause he's going to need them! Pure Mages and Wizards will be stacking more potent debuffs more consistently to keep themselves upright. A Mage with Enlarge Spell and Psychic Lock can pretty much be his own defender.
My point is, they shouldn't suck in Heroic and if the campaign keeps going, they'll get to that awesome point.
I can't really argue with either point, except to point out that not sucking in Heroic is a lot trickier than it may seem, which I believe you've alluded to as well.
It's entirely anecdotal, but I played a wizard / swordmage through like 7 - 12 and sufficiently screwed up the DM that I got the baleful eye on playing that character any more
In the hands of an expert player, that doesn't surprise me at all. I would suggest that, if you were to go back and play an illusion Mage in the same spot, your DM might have burst an artery ...
Another meaningless appeal to debate logic, my question was entirely rhetorical. Swordmages don't work the same way as other Defenders, while it's entirely possible to understand their tactics without having put them to use, however if you sucessfully play a Swordmage then you do understand their tactics, you clearly do not understand, thus you clearly have not played them properly; same-same with high Damage Wizards. And also another meaningless football anecdote? Put the bottle down and pick your dice up so you can actually play and see relevant tactics before you decide to comment on them.
You neither understand Controller or Defender tactics if you think DV is an inferior power to Color Spray for any role (including Striking), it's off-turn attack negation, movement control, and damage; ever since MM3 you can't argue "damage is low", even if you're stupidly triggering it off an MBA instead of a Limited Use/Brute attack. Lower than an MBA opped striker? Sure. Lower than any other Defender? No, and you've already negated the hit, from range so damage > any is just gravy. As for Color Spray, Blast 5 Daze is about as effective as Blast 5 Slow in terms of action denial since you're not combining it with prone/forced move, and the power requires Init investment (which you'll do anyway, but it's still relevant resource expenditure that isn't required of the SM|Wiz) to not screw your allies. And while yes, you can't make up the HP difference, it's really irrelevant because you have the same defenses (Psychic Lock? Sounds like another Paragon thing that you're applying to a Heroic argument).
I really get the feeling that you've never played with a tactically skilled DM and your allies tend to be low-mid Op making the benefits of true optimization meaningless.
SM|Lock is equal to a pure SM through heroic, and outright better in Paragon, the options you lose are more than made up for by the options you gain. Options, I will add, that are entirely defender related for both the |Wiz and |Lock, you are forgetting that the meta-tactic for both Defenders and "Controllers" are exactly the same (and forgetting that Locks are actually Controller-Striker-Defender-Leaders, in that order). Both lists are full of Attack and Mobility Penalties, Forced Movement, and self-defense tricks - that's the Defender Playbook.
I can't believe we're discussing the merits of SM's in a fighter thread.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
if you sucessfully play a Swordmage then you do understand their tactics, you clearly do not understand, thus you clearly have not played them properly;
Or perhaps, having played and understood their tactics, I still find their overall impact inferior to that of the Fighter?
You neither understand Controller or Defender tactics if you think DV is an inferior power to Color Spray for any role (including Striking)
I said DV>CS. I was then challenged to compare the self-defense utility of each, to which I rebutted that against multiple hostiles, CS>DV. Accurate only within a limited context, sure.
I really get the feeling that you've never played with a tactically skilled DM and your allies tend to be low-mid Op making the benefits of true optimization meaningless.
You're charging out on quicksand if I infer correctly and you're suggesting that a well-coordinated party will prefer a Swordmage over a Fighter. (Unless the striker is a pursuit Avenger. They're the jelly to the shielding Swordmage's peanut butter.)
Swordmages offer action denial. Yea, I get it; it's not that complicated. Sexy, sexy action economy hijinks. But modestly coordinated parties put monsters in a box where they need to roll a natural 20 to hit the Fighter. That's 95% pure de facto action denial. Plebian approach, same net result. Plus all of the other awesomeness of being a Fighter.
SM|Lock is equal to a pure SM through heroic, and outright better in Paragon.
The problem is, the SwordLock needs a very mobile second defender in the party. There's a lot of scenarios in which he'll need a Mulligan on his Aegis. Alternately, you could get by with ideally at least two allies taking those marking utilities such as Ominous Threat. But yes, in a home campaign in which the other players are willing to sacrifice either a couple of utility power slots or the opportunity to field a striker rather than another defender, then the SwordLock is 95% as defendery good as the Swordmage and considerably better at his striker and controller subroles.
In a vacuum strictly comparing value as a defender, no. The ability to redirect Aegis is rather important.
Really? Stop comparing Paragon Fighters to Heroic Swordmages, and stop pretending that observations about how a Swordmage is different from a Fighter prove that the Swordmage is worse than the Fighter. You're so far past me calling apples vs oranges that I'd be better off calling apples vs zucchini bread; it's not even worth me replying piecewise, since every conclusion you've reached is either incorrect itself, derived from a faulty premise, or completely irrelevant to the discussion, you even got my comment about CS vs DV wrong.
In short, you're wrong about everything, start over kiddo.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
