Can't say that I have. However, I have seen a good number of parties drag a late-blooming hybrid through heroic, only to have the campaign break up before our little flower opened his petals to the sun. This is America. Profit-take today. There may not be a tomorrow.
*Yea, yea, I'm dating myself. They don't even have Saturday morning cartoons anymore, do they?
Well it probably has the highest defences in the game with huge maneuvrability and decent damage output. At level 12 my lowest defence was effectively 27 and my AC was effectively 35. All this while doing eldritch strike with curse damage for all standard actions (and whatever granted attacks) and the awesome swordmage interrupts off-turn.
And yes there are 24hr cartoon channels so there are certainly cartoons on Saturday mornings.
Why bother watching a channel with pre-programmed cartoons? Just download your own and watch all you want!
Can't say that I have. However, I have seen a good number of parties drag a late-blooming hybrid through heroic, only to have the campaign break up before our little flower opened his petals to the sun. This is America. Profit-take today. There may not be a tomorrow.
That many people can badly build or misplay... It really is a two-step process: Figure out your AC at level 1, hybrid talent if necessary Have 16s pre-racial in your primary attack stats(and try to pick a race which adds +2 to both of them, though even that's not completely necessary as long as one of them has it. Put a 12 into Con and a 12 Dex if those stats haven't gotten any love)
Once you do that, I think any Defender|Defender build should be easily playable throughout Heroic provided you make decent choices for the rest of your options and understand what the limitations and benefits of your hybrid marks are.
Once you do that, I think any Defender|Defender build should be easily playable throughout Heroic provided you make decent choices for the rest of your options and understand what the limitations and benefits of your hybrid marks are.
Oh, I don't mean to imply that any hybrid by default is subpar. Probably the best of the bunch are the leader|leaders, because cherry-picking leader powers is both fun and profitable. (Still, you lose the third X Word power, and you've diluted the strength of class feats by half. Not a trivial cost.) The Warlock hybrids usually work because the class offers a buffet of minor cheeses: Eldritch Strike, various spiffy bonuses vs cursed enemies, and Ethereal Sidestep. (Most of those were introduced to buff up interest in an unappreciated base class, so one could snark that people still don't want to play a Warlock. They just want to play with his toys.) And of course there's Battle Cleric's Lore, the hybrid end run to end all end runs. (Again, someone decided the Cleric needed to be more attractive. Again, with the hybrid rules, being something other than a Cleric rocking the Cleric bling was the end result. Or just with the MC rules if you're feeling particularly RAWsome.)
But other "natural" fits sometimes fail to come together. Your defender|defenders often suffer from immediate action bottleneck. Marking multiple targets is nice---I'll appreciate a -2 for oncoming set of giant fangs to hit me, you bet---but rendering a single target all but useless sometimes is nicer. Additionally, building to level 30 we tend to think in terms of "feat deprivation," but really what that is is delayed effectiveness. Which would be OK, except that this is a game that's literally all about the journey. The destination doesn't even exist. Swordmage|Wizard may be the poster child for a hybrid concept that would seem to make perfect sense, but in practice ends up crippled by trying to be too many things, all of them requiring feat support. At the table, hybrids like that bring to mind the little brother in "A Christmas Story," waddling along in their super-puffy snow suit and wailing, "Guys! Wait up!"
Your defender|defenders often suffer from immediate action bottleneck. Marking multiple targets is nice---I'll appreciate a -2 for oncoming set of giant fangs to hit me, you bet---but rendering a single target all but useless sometimes is nicer. Additionally, building to level 30 we tend to think in terms of "feat deprivation," but really what that is is delayed effectiveness. Which would be OK, except that this is a game that's literally all about the journey. The destination doesn't even exist. Swordmage|Wizard may be the poster child for a hybrid concept that would seem to make perfect sense, but in practice ends up crippled by trying to be too many things, all of them requiring feat support. At the table, hybrids like that bring to mind the little brother in "A Christmas Story," waddling along in their super-puffy snow suit and wailing, "Guys! Wait up!"
First off, almost all my builds involve me thinking about what happens from levels 1-13. I rarely think about level 30 in builds except as an after thought for precisely the reasons you talk about - most games are heroic/low paragon. I've yet to see a Defender|Defender combo that doesn't work well in Heroic unless the player makes bad choices or doesn't understand tactics.
And for the most part, there simply aren't immediate action bottlenecks unless the player chooses badly. The only Defender|Defender whose marks can't be triggered by the other class is a Swordmage|Paladin, and Paladin isn't an immediate action. Cavalier works with any choice provided you don't mark every target. Everyone else has an option for the other class. Fighter|Warden as an example - if I'm a Fighter|Warden, Combat Challenge gets triggered by the Warden's Mark and the Warden's Fury gets triggered by the Fighter's Marks. Str is the attack stat for both classes and pick Dex so you can either take Font of Life, Combat Superiority, or Fighter Combat Talent. Notice it needs no feats at 1st level to have an AC 19 with Hide+18 Dex+Heavy Shield.
As for Swordmage|Wizard? If you're thinking you're the primary defender right off the bat, yes, it requires some investment. If you're instead thinking of yourself as a Wizard who tries to kite their mark, takes Dimensional Vortex as their encounter 3, and doesn't mind Swordburst too much as their 'other' encounter power, then it requires zero investment...
Hybrid Cavalier|Defender works with nothing and against everything. Why even bother?
I'm not talking about making 1-30 builds here. I'm talking 1-13. Hybrid Cavaliers to a certain extent are the easiest builds to play in that range. You get +2 surges and +4 initiative. You'll have some kind of usable MBA. And you can easily solve the armor problem if there is one.
Yes, the aura sucks compared to every other Defender mechanic. Except they also get easy access to Sanction right from the beginning with Ardent Strike, Valorous Smite, and Call of Challenge. Sure, it overrides their aura. We've already agreed that it sucks, right? And given that many Defender|Defender builds have issues with using up all their minors, the aura isn't truly that horrible.
Yeah, Cavalier|Defender without even using the aura is totally fine if you load up on mass sanctions and use your other half for extra mark punishment. How much does a Paladin|Defender really benefit from Divine Challenge? You're giving up DC for +2 surge value, +4 initiative, and the aura for backup, which isn't really a bad trade. It only falls behind hybrid Paladin when you get to epic and can't grab Weakening Challenge (or if you were dead-set on being a Hospitaler).
The aura only sucks if you consider it your primary punishment method. If you're using sanction, your |defender punishment, and your encounter punishment stackers...the aura becomes a backup tool.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
And for the most part, there simply aren't immediate action bottlenecks unless the player chooses badly. The only Defender|Defender whose marks can't be triggered by the other class is a Swordmage|Paladin, and Paladin isn't an immediate action.
Fighter|Warden as an example - if I'm a Fighter|Warden, Combat Challenge gets triggered by the Warden's Mark and the Warden's Fury gets triggered by the Fighter's Marks. Str is the attack stat for both classes and pick Dex so you can either take Font of Life, Combat Superiority, or Fighter Combat Talent. Notice it needs no feats at 1st level to have an AC 19 with Hide+18 Dex+Heavy Shield.
This is a good example of a good defender|defender pairing. That said, it's giving up a feat slot and either Warden superdurability, Crippling Crush and Second Wind mass lockdowns, or the usual Marked Scourge plus Son of Mercy/Pit Fighter the-Ranger-player-hates-me shenanigans. That's considerable opportunity cost for the ability to inflict an extra -2 mark each round. (I would say on all but one round, because some hybrid defenders forget that they're sporting at least one non-class encounter power, but Guardian's Pounce is a pretty effective off-turn substitute, I'll admit.)
As for Swordmage|Wizard? If you're thinking you're the primary defender right off the bat, yes, it requires some investment. If you're instead thinking of yourself as a Wizard who tries to kite their mark, takes Dimensional Vortex as their encounter 3, and doesn't mind Swordburst too much as their 'other' encounter power, then it requires zero investment...
At that point, why are you bothering to hybrid though? The mark will draw aggro, which you're really not prepared to deal with as a controller moonlighting defender. To prepare for it you need Hybrid Talent (Swordmage Warding) and a sword in hand, which means you're forgoing Staff Expertise (and the Staff of Ruin's easy item bonus) and Dual Implement Spellcaster, probably Superior Implement Proficiency too, and are going to be really late to the Enlarge Spell/Psychic Lock/etc party. Not to mention no Mage mechanics or spamming Illusory Wall via Improved Tome of Readiness for you.
In general, I stand by my contention that if you're going to defend, defend.
And for the most part, there simply aren't immediate action bottlenecks unless the player chooses badly. The only Defender|Defender whose marks can't be triggered by the other class is a Swordmage|Paladin, and Paladin isn't an immediate action.
It is for the hybrid Paladin, actually.
That was updated to work the same as a regular Paladin, except with the Cha+0/2/4 damage instead of Cha+3/6/9.
This is a good example of a good defender|defender pairing. That said, it's giving up a feat slot and either Warden superdurability, Crippling Crush and Second Wind mass lockdowns, or the usual Marked Scourge plus Son of Mercy/Pit Fighter the-Ranger-player-hates-me shenanigans. That's considerable opportunity cost for the ability to inflict an extra -2 mark each round. (I would say on all but one round, because some hybrid defenders forget that they're sporting at least one non-class encounter power, but Guardian's Pounce is a pretty effective off-turn substitute, I'll admit.)
Um, aren't those Paragon-tier things? We're not worried about that, remember? In any case, those options all cost feats and are mostly for damage rather than lockdown capabilities. Sure, we might not be able to do second wind mass lockdowns. But if we spend a feat, that Fighter|Warden effectively is a Fighter who is at -1 to hit, but has Toughness, Free Action Single Target Mark, a couple of interesting mark options, and access to a solid range of powers and feats - without giving up our MC option.
As for Swordmage|Wizard? If you're thinking you're the primary defender right off the bat, yes, it requires some investment. If you're instead thinking of yourself as a Wizard who tries to kite their mark, takes Dimensional Vortex as their encounter 3, and doesn't mind Swordburst too much as their 'other' encounter power, then it requires zero investment...
At that point, why are you bothering to hybrid though? The mark will draw aggro, which you're really not prepared to deal with as a controller moonlighting defender.
Because Dimensional Vortex is an interrupt that's better than Stun. It very well might be one of the best powers in the game. And if the mark draws aggro, that's fine. You're standing behind a bunch of characters and you keep moving around and targeting bursts while your friends interpose to create OAs. Basically, you mark, move away and let your friends flank the target. If the target wants to go after you, he takes 2 OAs. If the target doesn't go after you, he triggers your mark. And remember, we're talking about Heroic here - that's the defined problem set of levels.
The other enemies might try to aggro you, but they're dealing with the party's actual Defender...
Just because at say 11th, we're going to be some sort of crazy Defender|Wizard build doesn't mean we're not full-blown Wizard effectiveness in Heroic...
Um, aren't those Paragon-tier things? We're not worried about that, remember?
There's a legitimate counterpunch. Technically, I like to plan to L12, with anything beyond that being gravy in my experience. (At L16 the game officially enters four-color mode. I kind of dread that level as a DM, and I'd guess that even relatively healthy campaigns start derailing right about then unless the DM is really dedicated and skilled. The slope gets awfully slippery there.)
Sure, we might not be able to do second wind mass lockdowns. But if we spend a feat, that Fighter|Warden effectively is a Fighter who is at -1 to hit, but has Toughness, Free Action Single Target Mark, a couple of interesting mark options, and access to a solid range of powers and feats - without giving up our MC option.
Nor should we dismiss Combat Superiority, *cough*grappling, the Slow rider on Dooooooooooooooom!!!, etc. I thought I was going to throw Shield Push in that list, but I guess when it comes to the mark's origins, Combat Challenge don't care. Combat Challenge don't give a [redacted]. That is admittedly a nifty feature of mark-triggered feats that should be the envy of every leader|leader out there.
At any rate, I'm not knocking the build. I said it works for me. I'm just not convinced that it offers superior options to a non-hybrid build of either defender. Roughly equal. I can't muster the energy to argue with that. (Tonight, anyway. )
Because Dimensional Vortex is an interrupt that's better than Stun.
Oh, no argument. Dimensional Vortex is the Swordmage's crown jewel. WLMR laughed in his face as it flounced out the door in errata. MM3 impugned his defenderhood with its ramped-up damage benchmarks. But he's still got Dimensional Vortex. Can't take that away from the poor schlob. Just don't stare at the hair plugs or crack wise about the red ragtop riding lizard, 'K?
Then again: Color Spray. Maybe it's no instant poor man's Dominate, but the value of hybriding isn't the value of the grafted pieces, but their value minus that of what they replace. Big difference between Dimensional Vortex in a vacuum and Dimensional Vortex as a replacement for Color Spray.
And if the mark draws aggro, that's fine. You're standing behind a bunch of characters and you keep moving around and targeting bursts while your friends interpose to create OAs. Basically, you mark, move away and let your friends flank the target. If the target wants to go after you, he takes 2 OAs. If the target doesn't go after you, he triggers your mark.
Crystalline controller tactics 101, sure. They're like going all-in on every poker pot. Works great, till the first time it doesn't. I remain wary. I would envision my PC pulling a Billy Bob Thornton facing off the Mexican firing bayonet squad in "The Alamo." "I got to warn you boys, I'm a screamer."
And remember, we're talking about Heroic here - that's the defined problem set of levels.
Plus two, man. Plus two. If we're really talking strictly heroic, then we really should be talking Essentials. Knight/Warden and a Scout and a Mage. Ooh, no thanks on the Warpriest, but maybe a BCL Cleric even trumps a Warlord. OK, it's not that bad, but still ...
