I think that depends on the kind you come across. You have the ones who are just normal people in society and absolutely pleasant to talk to and deal with. Then you have the others who don't realize that their "goddess" view of themselves doesn't really work in the real world.
I think that depends on the kind you come across. You have the ones who are just normal people in society and absolutely pleasant to talk to and deal with. Then you have the others who don't realize that their "goddess" view of themselves doesn't r
OK, sure, if you really want to play a leather daddy, the Brawler Fighter with a whip is probably the best choice.
erachima what have you done. If only you'd agreed that the brawler fighter is super flavorful and reasonably effective even with no weapon. now we have a dominatrix derail, you monster, and it's all your fault.
erachima what have you done. If only you'd agreed that the brawler fighter is super flavorful and reasonably effective even with no weapon. now we have a dominatrix derail, you monster, and it's all your fault.
Also, if leather daddies aren't your thing you could play a decent dominatrix just by switching character gender
Maybe it's just me, but doesn't the phrase "decent dominatrix" sound just a wee bit antithetical? Most of the dominatrices (dominatrixes? dominatrii?) I've met were rather more than a little indecent...
I like dominatrii but I think dominatrices is correct.
Matrix, Matrices.
Dominatrix, Dominatrices.
Maybe it's just me, but doesn't the phrase "decent dominatrix" sound just a wee bit antithetical? Most of the dominatrices (dominatrixes? dominatrii?) I've met were rather more than a little indecent...[/quote]I like dominatrii but I think dominatric
Actually, you're still -1 or -2 to attacks vs the most common fighter types (2h and 1h) depending on whether or not they use a +3 Prof weapon (unless you take MUS) thanks to their weapon talent. And you can still use Spiked Gauntlet. You've always needed to use MUS/Talid/Spiked Gauntlet in order to get a Prof Bonus, all this change means is you don't need to upgrade enchants as often.
And lol@Brawler being the best defender. That's only true if you remove Swordmages and every other type of Fighter (except Arena) and prevent Paladins from taking CoO.
I'm late to this party, but I'll fight bite. Thanks to Headsman's Chop, prone is far and away the most exploitable status in heroic. This in turn makes the human Brawler with his +1 racial to Fortitude and extra slot for Pin Down into the single most effective facilitator for single-target beatdown in the tier. Obviously, heavy blades and axes don't work for every party, but anyone who's seen the right group put prone tactics together would be incapable of suggesting that the Brawler isn't a top-shelf build until at least early paragon. After that, sure, it slips a bit as the immunes to prone start popping up and HC's flat +5 doesn't scale.
That said, I think it's a mistake to regard the Brawler's off hand as anything more than a grappling hook. With the advent of Flail Expertise, there's no other correct weapon and expertise. If the campaign permits Mark of Storm* then it's worth the considerable opportunity cost of being a Genasi: At-will prone. At-will attack negation for any reach 1 mark foolish enough to take a stab at your ally. At-will effective immobilization once you get your feats compiled (which admittedly will take a while because you're effectively two slots short of the Human build). And an earth-shattering encounter nova to top it all off. LOL, Swordmages.
*The one or two people who a) thought up that feat and b) made its availability contingent upon campaign type should be automatic selections to the Bad Game Design Hall of Fame. There's two distinct 4E universes, those with MoS and those without. It's that game altering.
I'm late to this party, but I'll fight bite. Thanks to Headsman's Chop, prone is far and away the most exploitable status in heroic. This in turn makes the human Brawler with his +1 racial to Fortitude and extra slot for Pin Down into the single most
I'm sorry, are you trying to claim that the ability to prone things and the existance of Flail Expertise is remotely unique to Brawler? The only thing unique to Brawler is the Brawler unique things, which includes not being utterly worthless while punching things and grabs, since there's all of 0 multi-attack grabs in Heroic, I'm going to call any claim of "nova" or "beatdown enabling" absurd; did you RoS or CaGI? No, you grabbed, that's a 50 DKP minus.
And single target lockdown is more useless than zone defense.
I'm sorry, are you trying to claim that the ability to prone things and the existance of Flail Expertise is remotely unique to Brawler? The only thing unique to Brawler is the Brawler unique things, which includes not being utterly worthless while pu
I'm sorry, are you trying to claim that the ability to prone things and the existance of Flail Expertise is remotely unique to Brawler?
Neither actually, which really should have been clear. A Brawler's job is to keep an already prone target down, so that his allies can unload on their turns instead of reproning the target.
The only thing unique to Brawler is the Brawler unique things, which includes not being utterly worthless while punching things and grabs, since there's all of 0 multi-attack grabs in Heroic, I'm going to call any claim of "nova" or "beatdown enabling" absurd; did you RoS or CaGI? No, you grabbed, that's a 50 DKP minus.
A human Brawler will be grappling in Turn 2, right after Come and Get It as his opener and Parry and Riposte on his off-turn. A Mark of Storm--enabled Genasi is a little kludgy---I'm pretty sure I said that---and 75% of the time won't be grappling until Turn 3. (Once per typical day he can use his AP to push Rain of Blows up to Turn 1.) This ain't no Ranger-style "3 rounds of prepping with minor actions before I finally unleash the sheer awesome of Blade Cascade ... what do you mean he's already dead?" scenario.
Of course, if someone knocked down a flyer intent on kiting the party, forgoing nova damage and moving straight to grappling powers is the smarter long-term move. If the flyer had any non-kiting buddies you can always Come and Get It when your allies are done trashing the kite. Nova or lockdown: It's not a bad thing to have two powerful tactical choices.
SMs also can nova, they have double taps. The point is more that they don't want to because they have better things to do.
Wait, do I hear someone calling out Booming Blade? We do realize this game is played on skates, yea?
I'm glad you guys are here. I've needed a good knockdown, drag-out all day.
Neither actually, which really should have been clear. A Brawler's job is to keep an already prone target down, so that his allies can unload on their turns instead of reproning the target.A human Brawler will be grappling in Turn 2, right after Come
uhm, what? I wasn't commenting on Booming Blade at all actually. And comparing football to D&D is moronic. Why? Besides the obvious, team monster usually exceeds team PC. So single target lockdown is useless, especially as you go higher in tiers. And if your job is to keep a prone target down...its a waste of time. Hell, even LDB admitted he had rated brawlers too high.
uhm, what? I wasn't commenting on Booming Blade at all actually.And comparing football to D&D is moronic. Why?Besides the obvious, team monster usually exceeds team PC. So single target lockdown is useless, especially as you go higher in tiers. And i
The only thing unique to Brawler is the Brawler unique things, which includes not being utterly worthless while punching things and grabs, since there's all of 0 multi-attack grabs in Heroic, I'm going to call any claim of "nova" or "beatdown enabling" absurd; did you RoS or CaGI? No, you grabbed, that's a 50 DKP minus.
A human Brawler will be grappling in Turn 2, right after Come and Get It as his opener and Parry and Riposte on his off-turn. A Mark of Storm--enabled Genasi is a little kludgy---I'm pretty sure I said that---and 75% of the time won't be grappling until Turn 3. (Once per typical day he can use his AP to push Rain of Blows up to Turn 1.) This ain't no Ranger-style "3 rounds of prepping with minor actions before I finally unleash the sheer awesome of Blade Cascade ... what do you mean he's already dead?" scenario.
"Keep them prone" is not tactically relevant unless your strikers can't do their job, and regardless, Prone vs Prone and can't Stand is a -2 on the attack roll to hit the fighter vs the psychological trap of "try to move away" (Why yes, I will go meta, because playing the meta game is the only way defenders remain a viable role through epic).
Not to mention "Grab and Prone" to trigger Pin Down requires one very specific encounter power, Lightning Flail with MoS and Expertise, or attacking twice. You're entering opportunity cost territory on top of your lower Defenses, Attack Bonus, and Damage. You aren't making that up by knocking prone.
You'll notice I'm being nice and not slamming you for the MoS requirement.
Yeah, a sport with tactics designed for borderline mentally challenged drug addicts and more rules regarding both sides standing in a line than D&D has total totally relates to a game with Dragons and Fireballs.
A human Brawler will be grappling in Turn 2, right after Come and Get It as his opener and Parry and Riposte on his off-turn. A Mark of Storm--enabled Genasi is a little kludgy---I'm pretty sure I said that---and 75% of the time won't be grappling un
Besides the obvious, team monster usually exceeds team PC. So single target lockdown is useless, especially as you go higher in tiers. And if your job is to keep a prone target down...its a waste of time. Hell, even LDB admitted he had rated brawlers too high.
Yes, when you get to really high tiers, locking monsters into prone loses utility to the point of being utterly marginal in epic. I'm going to go look back; hold on a second. Hey, yea, I mentioned that.
Here's the thing. In the typical(TM) campaign, worrying about "higher tiers" is like worrying about what you're going to do with your second billion dollars. In the realpolitk-op perspective, you starting out in heroic, worry about heroic.
"Keep them prone" is not tactically relevant unless your strikers can't do their job, and regardless, Prone vs Prone and can't Stand is a -2 on the attack roll to hit the fighter vs the psychological trap of "try to move away" (Why yes, I will go meta, because playing the meta game is the only way defenders remain a viable role through epic).
Again, forget epic. Epic's a kerchief knife fight (and yes, that's Ajax from "The Warriors" meeting a different kind of strange wool) that a lot of campaigns never reach. Some 90% of my play has been heroic and early paragon, so that's my focal point. With that perspective, defenders remain valid and I haven't seen a better one than the brawler in that range. Ignoring everything else for level 30? Yea, heck, YMMV. Whatevs.
As for strikers not doing their job, since when has helping strikers do their job, however good they may be at it, ever been a problem?
Not to mention "Grab and Prone" to trigger Pin Down requires one very specific encounter power, Lightning Flail with MoS and Expertise, or attacking twice. You're entering opportunity cost territory on top of your lower Defenses, Attack Bonus, and Damage. You aren't making that up by knocking prone.
OK, I'm going to have to cut you off and get you to pay your tab. Like I've said, twice now, it ain't about the Brawler knocking targets down. (Though he can do that, often on a limited per encounter basis, depending on build.) It is about the Brawler keeping targets that anyone knocked down on the floor, so that everyone can unleash their really good stuff on a semi-helpless target.
As for lower defenses? Uh, just plain wrong. Attack bonus? Cheap and easy CA is roughly equivalent to the lost -1 in Talent. Damage? Well if you don't go flail and stick with a longsword, Headsman's Chop is pretty hard to beat for a long time. ... I would probably still go flail with a Brawler, but sticking with scale and a Str-Wis progression you're giving up absolutely nothing on the Son of Mercy or Pit Fighter/Marked Scourge shield fighter build in this department.
Yeah, a sport with tactics designed for borderline mentally challenged drug addicts and more rules regarding both sides standing in a line than D&D has total totally relates to a game with Dragons and Fireballs.
You brought it up! And really, all these years of butting heads with youse guys, and that's the first time you've really gotten under my skin. That's my sport; I coach it. And I assure you it's every bit as tactically complex as anything in this game. At least, on my side of the ball. Those guys on defense, oh yea they're [slur redacted].
Ooh, sorry. It must be that other Swordmage double-tap you had on your mind. ;)Because your pulling guard brought zone defense up? I don't know, man. I just went with the flow. Go along to get along, that's my motto!Yes, when you get to really high t
Your deflection isn't even amusing at this point, RR, you're arguing things I've never brought up and can't even take your own position seriously; nothing you've said is remotely a merit of the Brawler compared to other Fighters, and I find your lack of knowledge of Swordmages rather astounding so this "argument" is pretty much over until you get a clue.
Your deflection isn't even amusing at this point, RR, you're arguing things I've never brought up and can't even take your own position seriously; nothing you've said is remotely a merit of the Brawler compared to other Fighters, and I find your lack
Oh no you don't! This ain't no three-rounder for gangling 12-year-olds! Take off that head gear, put on the light gloves, and get back in this ring!
I told you guys I was looking for a fight. Swordmages as secondary strikers? I laugh at the conceit. [tosses head back and rips off a disdainful hahahaha!]
Oh no you don't! This ain't no three-rounder for gangling 12-year-olds! Take off that head gear, put on the light gloves, and get back in this ring! ;) I told you guys I was looking for a fight. Swordmages as secondary strikers? I laugh at the concei
Your deflection isn't even amusing at this point, RR, you're arguing things I've never brought up and can't even take your own position seriously; nothing you've said is remotely a merit of the Brawler compared to other Fighters, and I find your lack of knowledge of Swordmages rather astounding so this "argument" is pretty much over until you get a clue.
You too, dude. Time to be a big boy and stay in the fight past the adrenaline rounds. What, exactly, is my lack of knowledge of Swordmages? That they suck at striking? Uh, no, that's precisely a knowledge of Swordmages.
They're good at some things, even awesome when paired with a pursuit Avenger. But on a tabula rasa? Not top-tier defenders by any measure. Any Fighter build owns them, even the ones that theoretically outperform the Brawler. (I'll admit that a shield Fighter is roughly equal, mind you, but not if the party as a whole is built to blast through heroic.)
C'mon now, put up your dukes. Don't just huff and puff.
You too, dude. Time to be a big boy and stay in the fight past the adrenaline rounds. What, exactly, is my lack of knowledge of Swordmages? That they suck at striking? Uh, no, that's precisely a knowledge of Swordmages. ;) They're good at some things
Your deflection isn't even amusing at this point, RR, you're arguing things I've never brought up and can't even take your own position seriously; nothing you've said is remotely a merit of the Brawler compared to other Fighters, and I find your lack of knowledge of Swordmages rather astounding so this "argument" is pretty much over until you get a clue.
You too, dude. Time to be a big boy and stay in the fight past the adrenaline rounds. What, exactly, is my lack of knowledge of Swordmages? That they suck at striking? Uh, no, that's precisely a knowledge of Swordmages.
They're good at some things, even awesome when paired with a pursuit Avenger. But on a tabula rasa? Not top-tier defenders by any measure. Any Fighter build owns them, even the ones that theoretically outperform the Brawler. (I'll admit that a shield Fighter is roughly equal, mind you, but not if the party as a whole is built to blast through heroic.)
C'mon now, put up your dukes. Don't just huff and puff.
Typical of a football person. You don't even have real arguments, so you're just going to ad hominem when I try backing out of a pointless argument. What next, you going to suggest you could beat me up? In real life it's called bullying, here it's called baiting, knock it off and grow up.
I really hate pulling an Alcestis and just telling you to go look things up, but the length at which you are wrong is something I don't have time to correct tonight. Compared to Fighters, SM's have the better Defender PP, the better Defender At-Will, 2/3 better Encounter Powers, and better Defenses overall; Fighters have the better Features, overall Support, and Daily Powers, and none of that relates to the Brawler Specifically. Oh, and SMs Hybrid soooooooo much better. In the end, the best Defender builds in the game are impossible to rank except on a case by case basis, and both pure and hybrid SMs are in there as well as pure and hybrid Fighters; but none of them are Brawlers (Yes, I know of Beowulf, it doesn't deserve to be a UD, which among other things has lead me to discout UD as nothing but a Bajat collection).
You too, dude. Time to be a big boy and stay in the fight past the adrenaline rounds. What, exactly, is my lack of knowledge of Swordmages? That they suck at striking? Uh, no, that's precisely a knowledge of Swordmages. ;) They're good at some things
You don't even have real arguments, so you're just going to ad hominem when I try backing out of a pointless argument.
That whole editing thing I brought up earlier? I wasn't joking about that. Honest.
Back on point: All I've posted is real arguments. Come and Get It + Parry and Riposte + Grappling Strike from Turn 2+ is monstrous compared to anything that a Swordmage can bring to the table. So ... yo, pot, quit calling my kettle black.
I'm going to admit, I'm full of scotch that's probably older than half of our audience, so I'm an easy mark. But that left me rolling for some strange reason. Somehow I very much doubt that you hated to type that.
Oh my, you didn't go there. You didn't just bring the CharOp fallacy No 1 to the table in your defense, did you? There is very little more mournful than a hybrid defender, especially one that has to take Hybrid Talent right out of the gate to actually do any defending (rather than dying). If you're going to defend, defend. Don't be something like 4 to 6 levels behind in doing the job.
That whole editing thing I brought up earlier? I wasn't joking about that. Honest.Back on point: All I've posted is real arguments. Come and Get It + Parry and Riposte + Grappling Strike from Turn 2+ is monstrous compared to anything that a Swordmage
uhm, what? I wasn't commenting on Booming Blade at all actually.
Ooh, sorry. It must be that other Swordmage double-tap you had on your mind.
Welcome to the wonderful world in which Lightning Clash exists. Might want to look before you leap, man.
Ooh, sorry. It must be that other Swordmage double-tap you had on your mind. ;)[/quote]Welcome to the wonderful world in which Lightning Clash exists. Might want to look before you leap, man.
Considering he can't even get the class he writes the handbook for right, are you surprised at all Arm?
Whoa, wait. I don't write any class handbooks. Are you and I actually existing in the same reality? I'm having flashbacks to freshman year. That's kinda cool, actually. I'm gonna break out my Umberto Eco. Iiiiiiiiiiiii ammmmmmmmm rooooooockkkkkkkkkk.
Whoa, wait. I don't write any class handbooks. Are you and I actually existing in the same reality? I'm having flashbacks to freshman year. That's kinda cool, actually. I'm gonna break out my Umberto Eco. Iiiiiiiiiiiii ammmmmmmmm rooooooockkkkkkkkkk.
For those of us in the cheap seats, can you explain how this hits a target twice?
The original target is a creature within 5 squares of itself. That's ... pure awesome RAW, zelink. Your DM must be proud.
Thanks - I was wondering if that was what they meant.
:blink: The original target is a creature within 5 squares of itself. That's ... pure awesome RAW, zelink. Your DM must be proud. :rolleyes:[/quote]Thanks - I was wondering if that was what they meant.
Every other power dictates a different target. And you are within 5 of yourself. Otherwise, how could you use a ranged power on yourself? I feel like I'm talking to a 1 year old...
Every other power dictates a different target. And you are within 5 of yourself. Otherwise, how could you use a ranged power on yourself? I feel like I'm talking to a 1 year old...
Every other power dictates a different target. And you are within 5 of yourself. Otherwise, how could you use a ranged power on yourself?
You're funny, and here I am working so much harder at it.
RAI is blindingly obvious, from method of writeup to descriptive text. You have to rather willfully argue that succinct writing is instead careless writing to define that as a double-tap.
You're funny, and here I am working so much harder at it. RAI is blindingly obvious, from method of writeup to descriptive text. You have to rather willfully argue that succinct writing is instead careless writing to define that as a double-tap.
Oh my, you didn't go there. You didn't just bring the CharOp fallacy No 1 to the table in your defense, did you? There is very little more mournful than a hybrid defender, especially one that has to take Hybrid Talent right out of the gate to actually do any defending (rather than dying). If you're going to defend, defend. Don't be something like 4 to 6 levels behind in doing the job.
I guess you've never seen a Swordmage|Warlock mc Executioner /Sigil Carver.
I guess you've never seen a Swordmage|Warlock mc Executioner /Sigil Carver.
I'm pretty sure I gave fair warning that I intended to be so. Now certainly, I owe an ORC a beer or three for pulling him away from the entirety of SuperFriends this morning*, but hey. It's the artist's job to push the boundaries of the medium. It's the editorc's job to apply the reins.
Man, it's so beautiful to watch someone embarrass himself so. The Schadenfreude makes you smile.
[looks over own shoulder, points at own chest] Me? I spoke truth and tried to be amusing doing it. And, uh, you're giving off an unsettling vibe here, ya know?
I guess you've never seen a Swordmage|Warlock mc Executioner /Sigil Carver.
Can't say that I have. However, I have seen a good number of parties drag a late-blooming hybrid through heroic, only to have the campaign break up before our little flower opened his petals to the sun. This is America. Profit-take today. There may not be a tomorrow.
*Yea, yea, I'm dating myself. They don't even have Saturday morning cartoons anymore, do they?
I'm pretty sure I gave fair warning that I intended to be so. Now certainly, I owe an ORC a beer or three for pulling him away from the entirety of SuperFriends this morning*, but hey. It's the artist's job to push the boundaries of the medium. It's
Can't say that I have. However, I have seen a good number of parties drag a late-blooming hybrid through heroic, only to have the campaign break up before our little flower opened his petals to the sun. This is America. Profit-take today. There may not be a tomorrow.
*Yea, yea, I'm dating myself. They don't even have Saturday morning cartoons anymore, do they?
Well it probably has the highest defences in the game with huge maneuvrability and decent damage output. At level 12 my lowest defence was effectively 27 and my AC was effectively 35. All this while doing eldritch strike with curse damage for all standard actions (and whatever granted attacks) and the awesome swordmage interrupts off-turn.
And yes there are 24hr cartoon channels so there are certainly cartoons on Saturday mornings.
Well it probably has the highest defences in the game with huge maneuvrability and decent damage output. At level 12 my lowest defence was effectively 27 and my AC was effectively 35. All this while doing eldritch strike with curse damage for all sta
Can't say that I have. However, I have seen a good number of parties drag a late-blooming hybrid through heroic, only to have the campaign break up before our little flower opened his petals to the sun. This is America. Profit-take today. There may not be a tomorrow.
*Yea, yea, I'm dating myself. They don't even have Saturday morning cartoons anymore, do they?
Well it probably has the highest defences in the game with huge maneuvrability and decent damage output. At level 12 my lowest defence was effectively 27 and my AC was effectively 35. All this while doing eldritch strike with curse damage for all standard actions (and whatever granted attacks) and the awesome swordmage interrupts off-turn.
And yes there are 24hr cartoon channels so there are certainly cartoons on Saturday mornings.
Hes wantonly picking fights. Not worth your time.
Well it probably has the highest defences in the game with huge maneuvrability and decent damage output. At level 12 my lowest defence was effectively 27 and my AC was effectively 35. All this while doing eldritch strike with curse damage for all sta
Can't say that I have. However, I have seen a good number of parties drag a late-blooming hybrid through heroic, only to have the campaign break up before our little flower opened his petals to the sun. This is America. Profit-take today. There may not be a tomorrow.
*Yea, yea, I'm dating myself. They don't even have Saturday morning cartoons anymore, do they?
Well it probably has the highest defences in the game with huge maneuvrability and decent damage output. At level 12 my lowest defence was effectively 27 and my AC was effectively 35. All this while doing eldritch strike with curse damage for all standard actions (and whatever granted attacks) and the awesome swordmage interrupts off-turn.
And yes there are 24hr cartoon channels so there are certainly cartoons on Saturday mornings.
Why bother watching a channel with pre-programmed cartoons? Just download your own and watch all you want!
Well it probably has the highest defences in the game with huge maneuvrability and decent damage output. At level 12 my lowest defence was effectively 27 and my AC was effectively 35. All this while doing eldritch strike with curse damage for all sta
Can't say that I have. However, I have seen a good number of parties drag a late-blooming hybrid through heroic, only to have the campaign break up before our little flower opened his petals to the sun. This is America. Profit-take today. There may not be a tomorrow.
That many people can badly build or misplay... It really is a two-step process: Figure out your AC at level 1, hybrid talent if necessary Have 16s pre-racial in your primary attack stats(and try to pick a race which adds +2 to both of them, though even that's not completely necessary as long as one of them has it. Put a 12 into Con and a 12 Dex if those stats haven't gotten any love)
Once you do that, I think any Defender|Defender build should be easily playable throughout Heroic provided you make decent choices for the rest of your options and understand what the limitations and benefits of your hybrid marks are.
That many people can badly build or misplay... It really is a two-step process:Figure out your AC at level 1, hybrid talent if necessaryHave 16s pre-racial in your primary attack stats(and try to pick a race which adds +2 to both of them, though even
Once you do that, I think any Defender|Defender build should be easily playable throughout Heroic provided you make decent choices for the rest of your options and understand what the limitations and benefits of your hybrid marks are.
Oh, I don't mean to imply that any hybrid by default is subpar. Probably the best of the bunch are the leader|leaders, because cherry-picking leader powers is both fun and profitable. (Still, you lose the third X Word power, and you've diluted the strength of class feats by half. Not a trivial cost.) The Warlock hybrids usually work because the class offers a buffet of minor cheeses: Eldritch Strike, various spiffy bonuses vs cursed enemies, and Ethereal Sidestep. (Most of those were introduced to buff up interest in an unappreciated base class, so one could snark that people still don't want to play a Warlock. They just want to play with his toys.) And of course there's Battle Cleric's Lore, the hybrid end run to end all end runs. (Again, someone decided the Cleric needed to be more attractive. Again, with the hybrid rules, being something other than a Cleric rocking the Cleric bling was the end result. Or just with the MC rules if you're feeling particularly RAWsome.)
But other "natural" fits sometimes fail to come together. Your defender|defenders often suffer from immediate action bottleneck. Marking multiple targets is nice---I'll appreciate a -2 for oncoming set of giant fangs to hit me, you bet---but rendering a single target all but useless sometimes is nicer. Additionally, building to level 30 we tend to think in terms of "feat deprivation," but really what that is is delayed effectiveness. Which would be OK, except that this is a game that's literally all about the journey. The destination doesn't even exist. Swordmage|Wizard may be the poster child for a hybrid concept that would seem to make perfect sense, but in practice ends up crippled by trying to be too many things, all of them requiring feat support. At the table, hybrids like that bring to mind the little brother in "A Christmas Story," waddling along in their super-puffy snow suit and wailing, "Guys! Wait up!"
Oh, I don't mean to imply that any hybrid by default is subpar. Probably the best of the bunch are the leader|leaders, because cherry-picking leader powers is both fun and profitable. (Still, you lose the third X Word power, and you've diluted the st
Your defender|defenders often suffer from immediate action bottleneck. Marking multiple targets is nice---I'll appreciate a -2 for oncoming set of giant fangs to hit me, you bet---but rendering a single target all but useless sometimes is nicer. Additionally, building to level 30 we tend to think in terms of "feat deprivation," but really what that is is delayed effectiveness. Which would be OK, except that this is a game that's literally all about the journey. The destination doesn't even exist. Swordmage|Wizard may be the poster child for a hybrid concept that would seem to make perfect sense, but in practice ends up crippled by trying to be too many things, all of them requiring feat support. At the table, hybrids like that bring to mind the little brother in "A Christmas Story," waddling along in their super-puffy snow suit and wailing, "Guys! Wait up!"
First off, almost all my builds involve me thinking about what happens from levels 1-13. I rarely think about level 30 in builds except as an after thought for precisely the reasons you talk about - most games are heroic/low paragon. I've yet to see a Defender|Defender combo that doesn't work well in Heroic unless the player makes bad choices or doesn't understand tactics.
And for the most part, there simply aren't immediate action bottlenecks unless the player chooses badly. The only Defender|Defender whose marks can't be triggered by the other class is a Swordmage|Paladin, and Paladin isn't an immediate action. Cavalier works with any choice provided you don't mark every target. Everyone else has an option for the other class. Fighter|Warden as an example - if I'm a Fighter|Warden, Combat Challenge gets triggered by the Warden's Mark and the Warden's Fury gets triggered by the Fighter's Marks. Str is the attack stat for both classes and pick Dex so you can either take Font of Life, Combat Superiority, or Fighter Combat Talent. Notice it needs no feats at 1st level to have an AC 19 with Hide+18 Dex+Heavy Shield.
As for Swordmage|Wizard? If you're thinking you're the primary defender right off the bat, yes, it requires some investment. If you're instead thinking of yourself as a Wizard who tries to kite their mark, takes Dimensional Vortex as their encounter 3, and doesn't mind Swordburst too much as their 'other' encounter power, then it requires zero investment...
First off, almost all my builds involve me thinking about what happens from levels 1-13. I rarely think about level 30 in builds except as an after thought for precisely the reasons you talk about - most games are heroic/low paragon. I've yet to see
Hybrid Cavalier|Defender works with nothing and against everything. Why even bother?
I'm not talking about making 1-30 builds here. I'm talking 1-13. Hybrid Cavaliers to a certain extent are the easiest builds to play in that range. You get +2 surges and +4 initiative. You'll have some kind of usable MBA. And you can easily solve the armor problem if there is one.
Yes, the aura sucks compared to every other Defender mechanic. Except they also get easy access to Sanction right from the beginning with Ardent Strike, Valorous Smite, and Call of Challenge. Sure, it overrides their aura. We've already agreed that it sucks, right? And given that many Defender|Defender builds have issues with using up all their minors, the aura isn't truly that horrible.
I'm not talking about making 1-30 builds here. I'm talking 1-13. Hybrid Cavaliers to a certain extent are the easiest builds to play in that range. You get +2 surges and +4 initiative. You'll have some kind of usable MBA. And you can easily solve the
Yeah, Cavalier|Defender without even using the aura is totally fine if you load up on mass sanctions and use your other half for extra mark punishment. How much does a Paladin|Defender really benefit from Divine Challenge? You're giving up DC for +2 surge value, +4 initiative, and the aura for backup, which isn't really a bad trade. It only falls behind hybrid Paladin when you get to epic and can't grab Weakening Challenge (or if you were dead-set on being a Hospitaler).
The aura only sucks if you consider it your primary punishment method. If you're using sanction, your |defender punishment, and your encounter punishment stackers...the aura becomes a backup tool.
Yeah, Cavalier|Defender without even using the aura is totally fine if you load up on mass sanctions and use your other half for extra mark punishment. How much does a Paladin|Defender really benefit from Divine Challenge? You're giving up DC for +2
And for the most part, there simply aren't immediate action bottlenecks unless the player chooses badly. The only Defender|Defender whose marks can't be triggered by the other class is a Swordmage|Paladin, and Paladin isn't an immediate action.
Fighter|Warden as an example - if I'm a Fighter|Warden, Combat Challenge gets triggered by the Warden's Mark and the Warden's Fury gets triggered by the Fighter's Marks. Str is the attack stat for both classes and pick Dex so you can either take Font of Life, Combat Superiority, or Fighter Combat Talent. Notice it needs no feats at 1st level to have an AC 19 with Hide+18 Dex+Heavy Shield.
This is a good example of a good defender|defender pairing. That said, it's giving up a feat slot and either Warden superdurability, Crippling Crush and Second Wind mass lockdowns, or the usual Marked Scourge plus Son of Mercy/Pit Fighter the-Ranger-player-hates-me shenanigans. That's considerable opportunity cost for the ability to inflict an extra -2 mark each round. (I would say on all but one round, because some hybrid defenders forget that they're sporting at least one non-class encounter power, but Guardian's Pounce is a pretty effective off-turn substitute, I'll admit.)
As for Swordmage|Wizard? If you're thinking you're the primary defender right off the bat, yes, it requires some investment. If you're instead thinking of yourself as a Wizard who tries to kite their mark, takes Dimensional Vortex as their encounter 3, and doesn't mind Swordburst too much as their 'other' encounter power, then it requires zero investment...
At that point, why are you bothering to hybrid though? The mark will draw aggro, which you're really not prepared to deal with as a controller moonlighting defender. To prepare for it you need Hybrid Talent (Swordmage Warding) and a sword in hand, which means you're forgoing Staff Expertise (and the Staff of Ruin's easy item bonus) and Dual Implement Spellcaster, probably Superior Implement Proficiency too, and are going to be really late to the Enlarge Spell/Psychic Lock/etc party. Not to mention no Mage mechanics or spamming Illusory Wall via Improved Tome of Readiness for you.
In general, I stand by my contention that if you're going to defend, defend.
It is for the hybrid Paladin, actually.This is a good example of a good defender|defender pairing. That said, it's giving up a feat slot and either Warden superdurability, Crippling Crush and Second Wind mass lockdowns, or the usual Marked Scourge pl
And for the most part, there simply aren't immediate action bottlenecks unless the player chooses badly. The only Defender|Defender whose marks can't be triggered by the other class is a Swordmage|Paladin, and Paladin isn't an immediate action.
It is for the hybrid Paladin, actually.
That was updated to work the same as a regular Paladin, except with the Cha+0/2/4 damage instead of Cha+3/6/9.
This is a good example of a good defender|defender pairing. That said, it's giving up a feat slot and either Warden superdurability, Crippling Crush and Second Wind mass lockdowns, or the usual Marked Scourge plus Son of Mercy/Pit Fighter the-Ranger-player-hates-me shenanigans. That's considerable opportunity cost for the ability to inflict an extra -2 mark each round. (I would say on all but one round, because some hybrid defenders forget that they're sporting at least one non-class encounter power, but Guardian's Pounce is a pretty effective off-turn substitute, I'll admit.)
Um, aren't those Paragon-tier things? We're not worried about that, remember? In any case, those options all cost feats and are mostly for damage rather than lockdown capabilities. Sure, we might not be able to do second wind mass lockdowns. But if we spend a feat, that Fighter|Warden effectively is a Fighter who is at -1 to hit, but has Toughness, Free Action Single Target Mark, a couple of interesting mark options, and access to a solid range of powers and feats - without giving up our MC option.
As for Swordmage|Wizard? If you're thinking you're the primary defender right off the bat, yes, it requires some investment. If you're instead thinking of yourself as a Wizard who tries to kite their mark, takes Dimensional Vortex as their encounter 3, and doesn't mind Swordburst too much as their 'other' encounter power, then it requires zero investment...
At that point, why are you bothering to hybrid though? The mark will draw aggro, which you're really not prepared to deal with as a controller moonlighting defender.
Because Dimensional Vortex is an interrupt that's better than Stun. It very well might be one of the best powers in the game. And if the mark draws aggro, that's fine. You're standing behind a bunch of characters and you keep moving around and targeting bursts while your friends interpose to create OAs. Basically, you mark, move away and let your friends flank the target. If the target wants to go after you, he takes 2 OAs. If the target doesn't go after you, he triggers your mark. And remember, we're talking about Heroic here - that's the defined problem set of levels.
The other enemies might try to aggro you, but they're dealing with the party's actual Defender...
Just because at say 11th, we're going to be some sort of crazy Defender|Wizard build doesn't mean we're not full-blown Wizard effectiveness in Heroic...
It is for the hybrid Paladin, actually.[/quote]That was updated to work the same as a regular Paladin, except with the Cha+0/2/4 damage instead of Cha+3/6/9.Um, aren't those Paragon-tier things? We're not worried about that, remember? ;) In any case,
Um, aren't those Paragon-tier things? We're not worried about that, remember?
There's a legitimate counterpunch. Technically, I like to plan to L12, with anything beyond that being gravy in my experience. (At L16 the game officially enters four-color mode. I kind of dread that level as a DM, and I'd guess that even relatively healthy campaigns start derailing right about then unless the DM is really dedicated and skilled. The slope gets awfully slippery there.)
Sure, we might not be able to do second wind mass lockdowns. But if we spend a feat, that Fighter|Warden effectively is a Fighter who is at -1 to hit, but has Toughness, Free Action Single Target Mark, a couple of interesting mark options, and access to a solid range of powers and feats - without giving up our MC option.
Nor should we dismiss Combat Superiority, *cough*grappling, the Slow rider on Dooooooooooooooom!!!, etc. I thought I was going to throw Shield Push in that list, but I guess when it comes to the mark's origins, Combat Challenge don't care. Combat Challenge don't give a [redacted]. That is admittedly a nifty feature of mark-triggered feats that should be the envy of every leader|leader out there.
At any rate, I'm not knocking the build. I said it works for me. I'm just not convinced that it offers superior options to a non-hybrid build of either defender. Roughly equal. I can't muster the energy to argue with that. (Tonight, anyway. )
Because Dimensional Vortex is an interrupt that's better than Stun.
Oh, no argument. Dimensional Vortex is the Swordmage's crown jewel. WLMR laughed in his face as it flounced out the door in errata. MM3 impugned his defenderhood with its ramped-up damage benchmarks. But he's still got Dimensional Vortex. Can't take that away from the poor schlob. Just don't stare at the hair plugs or crack wise about the red ragtop riding lizard, 'K?
Then again: Color Spray. Maybe it's no instant poor man's Dominate, but the value of hybriding isn't the value of the grafted pieces, but their value minus that of what they replace. Big difference between Dimensional Vortex in a vacuum and Dimensional Vortex as a replacement for Color Spray.
And if the mark draws aggro, that's fine. You're standing behind a bunch of characters and you keep moving around and targeting bursts while your friends interpose to create OAs. Basically, you mark, move away and let your friends flank the target. If the target wants to go after you, he takes 2 OAs. If the target doesn't go after you, he triggers your mark.
Crystalline controller tactics 101, sure. They're like going all-in on every poker pot. Works great, till the first time it doesn't. I remain wary. I would envision my PC pulling a Billy Bob Thornton facing off the Mexican firing bayonet squad in "The Alamo." "I got to warn you boys, I'm a screamer."
And remember, we're talking about Heroic here - that's the defined problem set of levels.
Plus two, man. Plus two. If we're really talking strictly heroic, then we really should be talking Essentials. Knight/Warden and a Scout and a Mage. Ooh, no thanks on the Warpriest, but maybe a BCL Cleric even trumps a Warlord. OK, it's not that bad, but still ...
Fair 'nuff. The power writeup in the Compendium hasn't been updated and I never noticed the update.There's a legitimate counterpunch. ;) Technically, I like to plan to L12, with anything beyond that being gravy in my experience. (At L16 the game offi
Wait, you actually think that a Wizard|Swordmage might have damage or defense issues?
Er, no. I know that a Swordmage|Wizard will possess neither the defenses of a Swordmage nor the firepower of a Wizard. There's nothing that the hybrid can do to replace the lost HPs and surges that a pure Swordmage couldn't do at least two levels earlier. There's nothing that the hybrid can field that replaces the simple elegance of Staff Expertise with a Staff of Ruin and probably an offhand Defensive Staff. As awful as that visual may be. ("I'm known by many names, little hobbit. Some call me Gandalf the Daft Skier Who Forgot His Skis.")
Er, no. I know that a Swordmage|Wizard will possess neither the defenses of a Swordmage nor the firepower of a Wizard. There's nothing that the hybrid can do to replace the lost HPs and surges that a pure Swordmage couldn't do at least two levels ear
Um, aren't those Paragon-tier things? We're not worried about that, remember?
There's a legitimate counterpunch. Technically, I like to plan to L12, with anything beyond that being gravy in my experience. (At L16 the game officially enters four-color mode. I kind of dread that level as a DM, and I'd guess that even relatively healthy campaigns start derailing right about then unless the DM is really dedicated and skilled. The slope gets awfully slippery there.)
In any case, those options all cost feats and are mostly for damage rather than lockdown capabilities.
Oh now, let's not poo-poo damage. Everybody's secondary role should be striker.
Sure, but for most Defenders, feats and paragon paths are precious. Crippling Crush as an example - you're limiting your attacks and doubling up on the same stat for a character who doesn't consistently multi-attack.
Sure, we might not be able to do second wind mass lockdowns. But if we spend a feat, that Fighter|Warden effectively is a Fighter who is at -1 to hit, but has Toughness, Free Action Single Target Mark, a couple of interesting mark options, and access to a solid range of powers and feats - without giving up our MC option.
Nor should we dismiss Combat Superiority, *cough*grappling, the Slow rider on Dooooooooooooooom!!!, etc. I thought I was going to throw Shield Push in that list, but I guess when it comes to the mark's origins, Combat Challenge don't care. Combat Challenge don't give a [redacted]. That is admittedly a nifty feature of mark-triggered feats that should be the envy of every leader|leader out there.
At any rate, I'm not knocking the build. I said it works for me. I'm just not convinced that it offers superior options to a non-hybrid build of either defender. Roughly equal. I can't muster the energy to argue with that. (Tonight, anyway. )
(notes the goalposts being moved... That's the thing - you can take pretty much any hybrid Defender|Defender and be roughly equivalent to a regular Defender in Heroic. And then, you can optimize for weirdness in Paragon. Your complaint is basically that you run into people optimizing for weirdness in Heroic when it doesn't all quite come together or really not understanding the tactics of multi-marking.
Multi-marking is awesome if you understand positioning. The advantage of simply being a tough regular non-hybrid Defender who optimized around damage is that you don't really need to know positioning all that well. You won't control the battle in a way that an optimized Ultimate-style Defender will, but your fellow players won't likely realize that it is a failure of your build when more targets keep getting past you.
Because Dimensional Vortex is an interrupt that's better than Stun.
Oh, no argument. Dimensional Vortex is the Swordmage's crown jewel. WLMR laughed in his face as it flounced out the door in errata. MM3 impugned his defenderhood with its ramped-up damage benchmarks. But he's still got Dimensional Vortex. Can't take that away from the poor schlob. Just don't stare at the hair plugs or crack wise about the red ragtop riding lizard, 'K?
Then again: Color Spray. Maybe it's no instant poor man's Dominate, but the value of hybriding isn't the value of the grafted pieces, but their value minus that of what they replace. Big difference between Dimensional Vortex in a vacuum and Dimensional Vortex as a replacement for Color Spray.
I like Color Spray as a Wizard. But mass daze in a close blast vs. ranged 10 interrupt negate attack and cause damage to the enemy? Weren't you the one worried for the Swordmage|Wizard's survival a second ago? And the Swordmage|Wizard has better hit points and more surges than the Wizard...
And if the mark draws aggro, that's fine. You're standing behind a bunch of characters and you keep moving around and targeting bursts while your friends interpose to create OAs. Basically, you mark, move away and let your friends flank the target. If the target wants to go after you, he takes 2 OAs. If the target doesn't go after you, he triggers your mark.
Crystalline controller tactics 101, sure. They're like going all-in on every poker pot. Works great, till the first time it doesn't. I remain wary. I would envision my PC pulling a Billy Bob Thornton facing off the Mexican firing bayonet squad in "The Alamo." "I got to warn you boys, I'm a screamer."
And remember, we're talking about Heroic here - that's the defined problem set of levels.
Plus two, man. Plus two. If we're really talking strictly heroic, then we really should be talking Essentials. Knight/Warden and a Scout and a Mage. Ooh, no thanks on the Warpriest, but maybe a BCL Cleric even trumps a Warlord. OK, it's not that bad, but still ...
We're not talking strictly heroic. Your point is, if I understand it properly, is that there are a number of awesome hybrid Defender builds, but you've seen people play versions of them that suck in Heroic. And therefore, they're overrated for practical play. My point is, they shouldn't suck in Heroic and if the campaign keeps going, they'll get to that awesome point.
Even Grey Ioun Stone Marker, which looks like it ought to just completely suck in Heroic is at its most basic level an upgrade for the most part to Battlemind for the 1st few levels - because it punishes a shift and then gets a free action shift for possible OAs rather than just follow and grant a possible OA. It still has a Battlemind at-will and Battleminds don't actually get an interrupt option until 7th, which means the one it gets at 3rd is a solid upgrade. Rain of Steel is the obvious 5th level Fighter choice. It isn't very exciting to play until 7th because its options are rather limited, but at the same time, it is perfectly functional at low levels.
That's partially an indictment of how Lightning Rush is really the Battlemind's Defender Class Feature, but that's the point - there simply isn't that much you can do with a Defender at low levels that pushes the boundaries of what is possible, because things don't really start to open up until 7th for any of the classes.
What hybrid Defender|Defenders ought to be good at is engaging multiple targets at once and giving them some hard decisions to make. If the player isn't capable of figuring out who his primary targets ought to be, he's not going to enjoy playing one.
Fair 'nuff. The power writeup in the Compendium hasn't been updated and I never noticed the update.There's a legitimate counterpunch. ;) Technically, I like to plan to L12, with anything beyond that being gravy in my experience. (At L16 the game offi
It's entirely anecdotal, but I played a wizard / swordmage through like 7 - 12 and sufficiently screwed up the DM that I got the baleful eye on playing that character any more
It's entirely anecdotal, but I played a wizard / swordmage through like 7 - 12 and sufficiently screwed up the DM that I got the baleful eye on playing that character any more ;)
Sure, but for most Defenders, feats and paragon paths are precious. Crippling Crush as an example - you're limiting your attacks and doubling up on the same stat for a character who doesn't consistently multi-attack.
Well, Crippling Crush basically is a big old sign stating, "Next Stop: Son of Mercy." Point taken, but really isn't just about every class cattle-chuted by its limited selection of PPs? At least if one plans to optimize? I actually feel that defenders enjoy the widest selection of premium options in paragon.
That's the thing - you can take pretty much any hybrid Defender|Defender and be roughly equivalent to a regular Defender in Heroic. And then, you can optimize for weirdness in Paragon. Your complaint is basically that you run into people optimizing for weirdness in Heroic when it doesn't all quite come together or really not understanding the tactics of multi-marking.
Actually, my original point way back when was that it doesn't make sense to advertise the Swordmage as a defender because he hybrids so well. He does hybrid relatively well, but the |Wizard result is a controller with a sideline in defender, as I think we both agree. Search and replace with "|Warlock" and "striker" and repeat argument otherwise verbatim.
Are they fun and effective builds? Yea sure, other than that strong tendency to develop late. Do they make the player feel more clever for leveraging the rules in new and interesting ways? Absolutely, and that's all to the good. Are they better defenders than a vanilla brawling or shield Fighter? Mmmmm, I still don't think so.
Then you and I got off on defender|defenders and how much you can get done while still in your hybrid larval stage and the Tulip Bubble of 1637 and I looked up and that damn goalpost was right in front of me. (There's a classic story about the old Chicago Bears juggernaut Bronko Nagurski, who defined the rumbling, stumbling fullback style. On one play he bounced off a couple of defenders then ran into the goalpost, which was literally on the goalline back then, cracking it and officially applying the Dazed condition to himself. So he kept running straight into the Wrigley Field brick wall, splitting his helmet. Staggering back to the sideline, he told a teammate, "That last guy hit me awfully hard." Goalposts, man. Not your friend.)
I like Color Spray as a Wizard. But mass daze in a close blast vs. ranged 10 interrupt negate attack and cause damage to the enemy? Weren't you the one worried for the Swordmage|Wizard's survival a second ago?
Well, yea! Let's be honest, with their lower damage and higher HPs, monster-on-monster violence is not a game changer even with the added Con rider. As awesome as Dimensional Vortex is, much of the time it's only going to action-deny a single target. When multiple ugly things have you in their beetle-browed sights, Color Spray and a good move score are full of win.
And the Swordmage|Wizard has better hit points and more surges than the Wizard...
That's good, 'cause he's going to need them! Pure Mages and Wizards will be stacking more potent debuffs more consistently to keep themselves upright. A Mage with Enlarge Spell and Psychic Lock can pretty much be his own defender.
My point is, they shouldn't suck in Heroic and if the campaign keeps going, they'll get to that awesome point.
I can't really argue with either point, except to point out that not sucking in Heroic is a lot trickier than it may seem, which I believe you've alluded to as well.
It's entirely anecdotal, but I played a wizard / swordmage through like 7 - 12 and sufficiently screwed up the DM that I got the baleful eye on playing that character any more
In the hands of an expert player, that doesn't surprise me at all. I would suggest that, if you were to go back and play an illusion Mage in the same spot, your DM might have burst an artery ...
Well, Crippling Crush basically is a big old sign stating, "Next Stop: Son of Mercy." Point taken, but really isn't just about every class cattle-chuted by its limited selection of PPs? At least if one plans to optimize? I actually feel that defender
Another meaningless appeal to debate logic, my question was entirely rhetorical. Swordmages don't work the same way as other Defenders, while it's entirely possible to understand their tactics without having put them to use, however if you sucessfully play a Swordmage then you do understand their tactics, you clearly do not understand, thus you clearly have not played them properly; same-same with high Damage Wizards. And also another meaningless football anecdote? Put the bottle down and pick your dice up so you can actually play and see relevant tactics before you decide to comment on them.
You neither understand Controller or Defender tactics if you think DV is an inferior power to Color Spray for any role (including Striking), it's off-turn attack negation, movement control, and damage; ever since MM3 you can't argue "damage is low", even if you're stupidly triggering it off an MBA instead of a Limited Use/Brute attack. Lower than an MBA opped striker? Sure. Lower than any other Defender? No, and you've already negated the hit, from range so damage > any is just gravy. As for Color Spray, Blast 5 Daze is about as effective as Blast 5 Slow in terms of action denial since you're not combining it with prone/forced move, and the power requires Init investment (which you'll do anyway, but it's still relevant resource expenditure that isn't required of the SM|Wiz) to not screw your allies. And while yes, you can't make up the HP difference, it's really irrelevant because you have the same defenses (Psychic Lock? Sounds like another Paragon thing that you're applying to a Heroic argument).
I really get the feeling that you've never played with a tactically skilled DM and your allies tend to be low-mid Op making the benefits of true optimization meaningless.
SM|Lock is equal to a pure SM through heroic, and outright better in Paragon, the options you lose are more than made up for by the options you gain. Options, I will add, that are entirely defender related for both the |Wiz and |Lock, you are forgetting that the meta-tactic for both Defenders and "Controllers" are exactly the same (and forgetting that Locks are actually Controller-Striker-Defender-Leaders, in that order). Both lists are full of Attack and Mobility Penalties, Forced Movement, and self-defense tricks - that's the Defender Playbook.
I can't believe we're discussing the merits of SM's in a fighter thread.
Another meaningless appeal to debate logic, my question was entirely rhetorical. Swordmages don't work the same way as other Defenders, while it's entirely possible to understand their tactics without having put them to use, however if you sucessfull
if you sucessfully play a Swordmage then you do understand their tactics, you clearly do not understand, thus you clearly have not played them properly;
Or perhaps, having played and understood their tactics, I still find their overall impact inferior to that of the Fighter?
You neither understand Controller or Defender tactics if you think DV is an inferior power to Color Spray for any role (including Striking)
I said DV>CS. I was then challenged to compare the self-defense utility of each, to which I rebutted that against multiple hostiles, CS>DV. Accurate only within a limited context, sure.
I really get the feeling that you've never played with a tactically skilled DM and your allies tend to be low-mid Op making the benefits of true optimization meaningless.
You're charging out on quicksand if I infer correctly and you're suggesting that a well-coordinated party will prefer a Swordmage over a Fighter. (Unless the striker is a pursuit Avenger. They're the jelly to the shielding Swordmage's peanut butter.)
Swordmages offer action denial. Yea, I get it; it's not that complicated. Sexy, sexy action economy hijinks. But modestly coordinated parties put monsters in a box where they need to roll a natural 20 to hit the Fighter. That's 95% pure de facto action denial. Plebian approach, same net result. Plus all of the other awesomeness of being a Fighter.
SM|Lock is equal to a pure SM through heroic, and outright better in Paragon.
The problem is, the SwordLock needs a very mobile second defender in the party. There's a lot of scenarios in which he'll need a Mulligan on his Aegis. Alternately, you could get by with ideally at least two allies taking those marking utilities such as Ominous Threat. But yes, in a home campaign in which the other players are willing to sacrifice either a couple of utility power slots or the opportunity to field a striker rather than another defender, then the SwordLock is 95% as defendery good as the Swordmage and considerably better at his striker and controller subroles.
In a vacuum strictly comparing value as a defender, no. The ability to redirect Aegis is rather important.
I can't believe we're discussing the merits of SM's in a fighter thread.
Eh, it's the 4E fin de siècle. We all just talking to hear ourselves talk, anyway.
Or perhaps, having played and understood their tactics, I still find their overall impact inferior to that of the Fighter?I said DV>CS. I was then challenged to compare the self-defense utility of each, to which I rebutted that against multiple hosti
Really? Stop comparing Paragon Fighters to Heroic Swordmages, and stop pretending that observations about how a Swordmage is different from a Fighter prove that the Swordmage is worse than the Fighter. You're so far past me calling apples vs oranges that I'd be better off calling apples vs zucchini bread; it's not even worth me replying piecewise, since every conclusion you've reached is either incorrect itself, derived from a faulty premise, or completely irrelevant to the discussion, you even got my comment about CS vs DV wrong.
In short, you're wrong about everything, start over kiddo.
Really? Stop comparing Paragon Fighters to Heroic Swordmages, and stop pretending that observations about how a Swordmage is different from a Fighter prove that the Swordmage is worse than the Fighter. You're so far past me calling apples vs oranges
How do battleragers (str/con fighters) do in epic? Are their thps enough to keep them alive with lower AC, will and/or reflex?
I've been thinking of making a dwarven hammer based fighter, but I'm not sure whether to capitalize on thps or just boost my wisdom instead of con. Or roll something else.
How do battleragers (str/con fighters) do in epic? Are their thps enough to keep them alive with lower AC, will and/or reflex?I've been thinking of making a dwarven hammer based fighter, but I'm not sure whether to capitalize on thps or just boost m
Their THP generation is basically meaningless, though HP in general is fairly meaningless. You lose because of getting controlled and not being able to kill your opponent, and thus took too much damage.
Fighters aren't particularly good "defenders" in Epic, which isn't to say they're bad characters, they just take on a different role when most enemies fly/reach/skirmish/teleport/etc. they're high damage melee controllers that synergize well due to having a good MBA, decent 'cluster' options, and being fairly self-sufficient.
Their THP generation is basically meaningless, though HP in general is fairly meaningless. You lose because of getting controlled and not being able to kill your opponent, and thus took too much damage.Fighters aren't particularly good "defenders" in
Their THP generation is basically meaningless, though HP in general is fairly meaningless. You lose because of getting controlled and not being able to kill your opponent, and thus took too much damage.
Fighters aren't particularly good "defenders" in Epic, which isn't to say they're bad characters, they just take on a different role when most enemies fly/reach/skirmish/teleport/etc. they're high damage melee controllers that synergize well due to having a good MBA, decent 'cluster' options, and being fairly self-sufficient.
Its a shame this is true, I wish there was a mechanic for the fighter that you could stop the flight, skirmish, etc.
The battlerager mechanic is neat and flavorful, but it does lose steam as you level.
Its a shame this is true, I wish there was a mechanic for the fighter that you could stop the flight, skirmish, etc.The battlerager mechanic is neat and flavorful, but it does lose steam as you level.
You can shake status effects quite a bit as a fighter, particularly if you go Dreadnought, which is fitting enough for a Battlerager, but as mentioned, the THP's, especially post MM3, are really not quite enough for everything you're giving up, not to mention trying to use only invivorating powers is very restrictive.
Leaders can already hand out THP's, and you have other methods of gaining THP's without going battlerager. It's just not worth it.
If you want to be durable, go for resistances and such, and you'll be better off because of all the different instances of damage coming at you from zones, auras, ongoing damage, terrain effects, etc.
You can shake status effects quite a bit as a fighter, particularly if you go Dreadnought, which is fitting enough for a Battlerager, but as mentioned, the THP's, especially post MM3, are really not quite enough for everything you're giving up, not t
Which is fine for dazed (if superior will didn't clear it), blinded, immobilized, restrained, weakened, etc. For stunned you have superior will, for dominated you have Clearheaded. You can grab Sohei Clarity if you're really concerned about it. There are enough tools by the time you get to epic for shaking stuff off.
Which is fine for dazed (if superior will didn't clear it), blinded, immobilized, restrained, weakened, etc. For stunned you have superior will, for dominated you have Clearheaded. You can grab Sohei Clarity if you're really concerned about it. There
I generally prefer to use my minor actions for things, rather than to shake conditions I shouldn't have gotten in the first place if my Will didn't blow.
I generally prefer to use my minor actions for things, rather than to shake conditions I shouldn't have gotten in the first place if my Will didn't blow.
Even if your will is average to high, you will get hit by status conditions. It's the DM's job to ensure that. Nothing wrong with being prepared for when you do get hit.
Even if your will is average to high, you will get hit by status conditions. It's the DM's job to ensure that. Nothing wrong with being prepared for when you do get hit.
A Str/Con Fighter will have to burn a minor every round. Thats the reality of epic play. Dreadnought isn't being prepared, its taking something that is completely overkill and making it a total necessity.
A Str/Con Fighter will have to burn a minor every round. Thats the reality of epic play. Dreadnought isn't being prepared, its taking something that is completely overkill and making it a total necessity.
@Mengu So, wait, I'm going to get hit by status effects if my will is too low, but I'm going to get hit if it's high as well? I'm a bit confused.
So, should I make a different kind of fighter, or just have a hammer fighter that boosts wisdom instead of con? I could make a spear fighter and be okay boosting wisdom. I couldn't daze at will, though, and I'd give up my shield for a bit of reach. And anvil of doom.
Is dreadnought required, or can I survive without it (I really like gladiator champion)?
@Mengu So, wait, I'm going to get hit by status effects if my will is too low, but I'm going to get hit if it's high as well? I'm a bit confused.So, should I make a different kind of fighter, or just have a hammer fighter that boosts wisdom instead
@Mengu So, wait, I'm going to get hit by status effects if my will is too low, but I'm going to get hit if it's high as well?
Yes. Maybe not as frequently, instead of being hit on a 2, you'll get hit on an 11, or maybe 15. But you will get hit, and should bring the tools to shake out of conditions, whether that's Superior Will, Clearheaded, Boots of Free Movement, teleportation powers, Resilient Focus, whatever. Every character needs a toolbox to deal with the kinds of conditions that are most debilitating to the build.
Yes. Maybe not as frequently, instead of being hit on a 2, you'll get hit on an 11, or maybe 15. But you will get hit, and should bring the tools to shake out of conditions, whether that's Superior Will, Clearheaded, Boots of Free Movement, teleporta
I ran across a neat trick yesterday that I thought I'd share. Brawler Fighters already like to either multiclass Monk or take Elemental Initiate for a better unarmed attack. This also opens the door for a Transcendent Ki Focus, a superior ki focus that increases the reach of your melee attacks by one. Now you can grab with reach, which basically means that if enemies don't have reach, don't have a ranged attack and can't teleport, they're practically stunned as long as you have them grabbed. And it only requires a one feat investment if you took the theme, so you can get it to work at level 2 (you need Inescapable Hold first).
I ran across a neat trick yesterday that I thought I'd share. Brawler Fighters already like to either multiclass Monk or take Elemental Initiate for a better unarmed attack. This also opens the door for a Transcendent Ki Focus, a superior ki focus th
By in general, you mean, "That's the General Rule printed in every book with Superior Implements, and there has yet to be a Specific Rule remotely capable of beating it"
By in general, you mean, "That's the General Rule printed in every book with Superior Implements, and there has yet to be a Specific Rule remotely capable of beating it"
I checked, and it looks like that it doesn't say (in both PHB3 and PsP, where superior implements and superior ki foci are introduced respectivly) that you can't use a superior implement with weapon attacks, but you have to make you attack with the implement. So, it looks like it would be rules-legal to have Trad. Ki Focus to work with fighter attacks.
I checked, and it looks like that it doesn't say (in both PHB3 and PsP, where superior implements and superior ki foci are introduced respectivly) that you can't use a superior implement with weapon attacks, but you have to make you attack with the i
I checked, and it looks like that it doesn't say (in both PHB3 and PsP, where superior implements and superior ki foci are introduced respectivly) that you can't use a superior implement with weapon attacks, but you have to make you attack with the implement. So, it looks like it would be rules-legal to have Trad. Ki Focus to work with fighter attacks.
Page 195 in the PHB 3 covers that superior implement properties only apply to implement powers.
Page 195 in the PHB 3 covers that superior implement properties only apply to implement powers.
I checked, and it looks like that it doesn't say (in both PHB3 and PsP, where superior implements and superior ki foci are introduced respectivly) that you can't use a superior implement with weapon attacks, but you have to make you attack with the implement. So, it looks like it would be rules-legal to have Trad. Ki Focus to work with fighter attacks.
So by "checked" you mean "glanced over the rules while watching netflix"
So by "checked" you mean "glanced over the rules while watching netflix"
I was looking over the haunted blade theme and the L6 daily stance seems like it would be perfect for a flail using dragonborn iron vangaurd with draconic arrogance.
You would be able to use a flail and a shield, prone with the attack triggering that portion and then push the target triggering the other portion. It is a way to get both push and prone together without using a spear/polearm and if you add in dragging flail, you get the slide back. So you could reach some tremendous distances with push and slide enhancements. You could focus on str and con with just enough dex to use dragging flail and maybe pick up the third attack in rain of blows. Or you could just focus on doing wisdom and having great OA punishment. You could add lashing flail at paragon to get prone and push on your MBAs though only one encounter a day.
I was looking over the haunted blade theme and the L6 daily stance seems like it would be perfect for a flail using dragonborn iron vangaurd with draconic arrogance. You would be able to use a flail and a shield, prone with the attack triggering th
Can I safely assume that the feats Power Attack, Potent Challenge (PHB) and Tainted Wounds (HoS) are rated Purple or lower? Because I don't see them in the guide.
Can I safely assume that the feats Power Attack, Potent Challenge (PHB) and Tainted Wounds (HoS) are rated Purple or lower? Because I don't see them in the guide.
Can I safely assume that the feats Power Attack, Potent Challenge (PHB) and Tainted Wounds (HoS) are rated Purple or lower? Because I don't see them in the guide.
Correct, LDB didn't list feats rated lower than Black to save space.
Correct, LDB didn't list feats rated lower than Black to save space.
Would you recommend Warforged as a Battlerager Vigor 1-Hand and Shield fighter or another race?
I recal Dwarf has some racial support for Battlerage.
Dwarf Stoneblood, which grants a scaling feat bonus to the THP gained using invigorating powers.
I recal Dwarf has some racial support for Battlerage.[/quote]Dwarf Stoneblood, which grants a scaling feat bonus to the THP gained using invigorating powers.
My human fighter is extremely accurate, so I picked up Power Attack to see how well it would work. The answer is _very well_. It may not work as well for some groups or PCs, but it's extremely good for boosting damage for me. In theory, I stop using it when I've already used Heroic Effort or I know the enemy is extraordinarily difficult to hit, but I've only missed once in 4 levels because of it, and only because I forgot I an enemy made me unable to use encounter powers so couldn't Heroic Effort.
Re: Power AttackMy human fighter is extremely accurate, so I picked up Power Attack to see how well it would work. The answer is _very well_. It may not work as well for some groups or PCs, but it's extremely good for boosting damage for me. In theor
Take a look at a sword and board if you want to defend. The Mr. Smith Build in the complete collection link is a good start.
Assuming you don't want to get into flail shenanigans, the two defender templates I often steer new 4E players towards are Mr. Smith and the Inexhaustibal Dragon Soverign (assuming the DM is fairly respectful of marks). Both could use some updating, but they're fun, effective builds that play fairly intuitively.
Assuming you don't want to get into flail shenanigans, the two defender templates I often steer new 4E players towards are Mr. Smith and the Inexhaustibal Dragon Soverign (assuming the DM is fairly respectful of marks). Both could use some updating,
Realise this post is probably better suited to the rules forum, but it's on topic.
Re-Grappling Strike States "and you grab the target. The grab ends automatically at the end of your next turn."
As specific over-rules generic, does this mean that this grab cannot be sustained?
Realise this post is probably better suited to the rules forum, but it's on topic.Re-Grappling StrikeStates "and you grab the target. The grab ends automatically at the end of your next turn."As specific over-rules generic, does this mean that this g
Thanks. And with one fell swoop, we kill my buddy's build lol
Do please note that the attack is an at-will, so he can still fake it.
His idea was to grab, sustain and spam thp with an invigorating at-will. Grappling Strike was to avoid the loss of damage on any turn he needs to grab i.e the firs, or after and escape (though already maxed Fort and taken Inescapable hold to reduce the possibility of an escape)
As a side note, does an escape attempt suffer the -2 if prone?
Thanks.And with one fell swoop, we kill my buddy's build lol [/quote]Do please note that the attack is an at-will, so he can still fake it.[/quote]His idea was to grab, sustain and spam thp with an invigorating at-will.Grappling Strike was to avoid t
No. It's just attack rolls that take the -2 penalty. Skill checks, which is what escape attempts technically are, are not affected.
Looking for an opinion: building a Polearm fighter, and wondering what feat to take to form the basis for my forced movement Polearm Gamble shenanigans: Forceful Opportunist or Swift Spear?
By my reading, Swift Spear's "slide that enemy 1 square to a square adjacent to you" means that the enemy has to end its movement adjacent to you, so your Fighter ends up with a circle of prone enemies orbiting around him. Is this right?
Because although this isn't exactly a bad outcome, I kind of like Forceful Opportunist's end result where an enemy trying to engage ends up two squares away and prone, whereas Swift Spear still ends with them able to attack you.
I guess there's a similar question about Footwork Lure - I read it as the enemy having to end its forced movement in the space you left, and I don't know if that's right or not.
So basically, I was wondering if the "slide 1 square into a square that..." wordings mean:
a) It's the explicit final destination of the targeted enemy, and regardless of the amount of forced movement you have they must end it in that way, Or b) Once you've slid them 1 square into that square, you have fulfilled your obligation to the power/feat and then can do what you like with the other three or four squares of forced movement you've added on to it
Thanks. =D
EDIT: Here's the current build. No items yet, but assume at least Controlling Greatspear (MOAR PUSHING)
No. It's just attack rolls that take the -2 penalty. Skill checks, which is what escape attempts technically are, are not affected. Looking for an opinion: building a Polearm fighter, and wondering what feat to take to form the basis for my forced mo
That's awesome. A slightly steroidal Dual Strike as an encounter. Rock on, Jedi wannabe.
The original target is a creature within 5 squares of itself. That's ... pure awesome RAW, zelink. Your DM must be proud. 
