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I don't think anyone is asking for dice rolls for mundane things like that, but it would be nice to have a little bit or reality put back into combat.  I don't think it would hurt the game to get rid of martial healing (What? You've got a sword in your gut? Walk it off!), reliable martial dailes  I can swing this sword really hard all day until I actually hit something with it.), or the ultra-gamist paladin mark (Attack me or I'll shoot laser beams at you!)  Super gamist stuff like this really bugs me and IMHO has no place in D&D.

May 25, 2010 -- 4:55AM, Madfox11 wrote:

May 24, 2010 -- 3:26PM, Istaran wrote:

Now, my actual experience in play with 3 years of Living Greyhawk, playing in a wide variety of parties was that well built/played fightery types were major contributors at every level I played, including up to level 9 or so, and that it was generally far more effective for the casters to buff the fighters than to buff themselves and pretend to be fighters. Also the multiclass system favored multiclassing for fighter types to combine class features from various classes that could generally be stacked together, while casters basically fall behind if they multiclass into anything but a full progression PrC. 

The bold faced part is the biggest reason why you felt that fighter-types had a major contribution to a game. The first cracks appear at level 9 with 5th level spells, and those cracks become bigger and bigger until around level 13 it becomes problematic.

Note btw that while many people talk about DMs, the real crux in 3E were the players as well. If all players at the table were equally skilled in character building, and/or the better players actively downplayed their characters problems started to arise much much later. The problems arise when you have well-build and well-played PCs in combination with less skilled PCs in combination with players who pay less attention to others. It is rediculously easy to make one-man armies in 3E at high level. Than again, you have your jerks in 4E as well, although it does take more work in 4E.

To be more thorough, I also played Xen'drik Expeditions up through level 13, though in the latter parts we didn't have enough time available for play and ended up skipping entire levels due to level bumps. Still my melee character in Blackwheel Company had a tendency to overshadow the casters, as SODs are unreliable against things with 2-3 times your HD (and those frequent success on saves) and I was able to put out far more damage far more reliably. Now, maybe the casters could have chosen more abusive spells or something, by no means was Grendalyn inadequate to the challenges that faced our party (and by no means did Blackwheel Company adventures pull their punches). (Of course Grendalyn's design was char-op'd into the abusive range as it is.) 

Additionally, I played a short-lived near-epic campaign that was a pretty much pure dungeon crawl with a modified version of gestahlt rules.. that campaign I snapped in half with my character almost purely from casting as a 20th level Sorcerer. (the rest of what I got from Gestahlt was just icing on the cake.) I'm quite aware that no melee type character would be able to solo two greatwyrms simultaneously like that character did (well, with a little help from a cohort, but that's a feat right?)

May 25, 2010 -- 12:12PM, wrecan wrote:

May 25, 2010 -- 12:03PM, talok55 wrote:

it would be nice to have a little bit or reality put back into combat.  I don't think it would hurt the game to get rid of martial healing (What? You've got a sword in your gut? Walk it off!)

Realism would mean one hit and you are incapacitated.  Hit points are the most unrealistic combat mechanic ever devised.  It is not realistic at all.  People in combat get hit once and fall, either dead, dismembered or in shock.  Either way, they ain't fighting any time soon.  Anything else is a superficial wound or a miss. 

To that extent, healing surges actually restored a little sanity back to combat by embracing the fact that the only real damage is the one you don't walk away from.  Everything else is jutst having the wind knocked ou of you and slow fatigue (as represented by lost healing surges).

I recall 2d edition, when the player of one fighter used to try to figure out how many arrows were sticking out of the PC's hide, as if every arrow attack that did damage to his PC actually represented an arrow stuck in the flesh like some sort of bizarre pincushion.

I said a little bit of reality, not complete realism.  Besides, people in real world combat situations get hit all of the time with bullets, shrapnel, etc. and not only not die, but keep fighting.  That sort of stuff has been documented since the middle ages.  In duels, people have been stapped repeatedly with swords, even run through, kept fighting and lived to a ripe old age.  It's not the norm, but it does happen.  Hit points may be more realistic than people give them credit for.

May 25, 2010 -- 11:39AM, Rian_king wrote:

" ok roll a dice to see if you wake up...Oh you rolled a 1 you sleep for 4 more hours"

Hey now, I've failed that roll before!

May 25, 2010 -- 12:30PM, Kaganfindel wrote:

This game does not use Hit Points as a measure of physical damage.  Stop trying to shoehorn physical health into Hit Points, and martial healing stops being nonsense.  HP are a measure of health, fatigue, morale, the favor of the gods, and the character's importance to the story.  That's why minions only have one, and archvillains (who are, in many cases, physically inferior to those 1 HP mooks) have so many.

You can have a long fight with a villain, and narrate it so that only one wound was delivered.  It doesn't even have to be the last one - the final blow could just be the shot that gets him to stop monologuing long enough to look down at the bleeding, fatal wound he took a minute ago, look back up and collapse.  It could be the rogue slitting the guy's throat after he's exhausted himself fighting off the party's attacks.  That's why they call your triggered healing surge Second Wind instead of Suture Self.

While I agree, I, as a DM, have always maintained that the bloodied threshold is the mark of physical injury.  Until a player or creature is bloodied, it hasn't necessarily been wounded.  However, once you are bloodied, you are just that, bleeding (or burnt, badly shocked, etc.).  At any rate, you have, by that point, definetely taken direct damage.  I also rule that critical hits are always actual successful strikes.  Martial Healing during short rests consists of talking the "patient" up whilst binding/treating their wounds.

Granted that's just me though.  But apart from those exceptions, I also rule that a "hit" doesn't mean that you were actually struck for damage.

People need to remember that hit points are a metagame concern.  Your character doesn't know how many hps he has left.  He knows when he's "just a bit winded", "smarting from that last one" "hurt pretty bad" and "In deep _____".

May 25, 2010 -- 12:26PM, talok55 wrote:

I said a little bit of reality, not complete realism.

You're "little bit of realism" is less realistic than what we currently have.

Besides, people in real world combat situations get hit all of the time with bullets, shrapnel, etc. and not only not die, but keep fighting.  That sort of stuff has been documented since the middle ages.

It's documented because it's considered miraculous.  Most people take wounds and fall.

But if you think it realistic that people take wounds and keep fighting, what's your beef?  That's what happens right now, if you decide a hit is a physical injury.

You're not complainign that combat is realistic; you're complaining that recuperation is unrealistic.  You're complaining that hit points are restored after expending healing surges.  But what does hit points represent?  Not physical damage.  It's just a counter to determine when your karma's run out and you fall like a lump.  Recuperation comes in the form of healing surges. 

Hit points represent your ability to handle a single combat.
Healing surges represent your ability to handle a day's worth of combats.
If you're desperate for a mechanic to represent a character's ability to recuperate wounds in between adventures, may I interest you in Convalescence Points?