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3 years ago ::
May 24, 2010 - 8:50PM
#471
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The ruling in question has nothing to do with the polymorphing rules, it's an issue with the Rehmorazz stat block itself. Does the gizzard do extra fire damage (via digestive juices or something) in addition to the normal contact damage or would that be double counting the fire aura?
There's basically three possibilities:
- Swallow Whole incorporates the fire aura without explicitly stating such, intended result is 2d8+12 and 8d6 total damage. A polymorphed wizard should not gain the 8d6, but does due to sloppy wording.
- Swallow Whole does not incorporate the fire aura and being inside counts as being in contact making the total damage a lethal 2d8+12 and 16d6. A polymorphed wizard does 8d6 less damage than the real thing.
- Swallow Whole does not incorporate the fire aura because the fire aura only applies to contact with the outside; the gizzard, however, also deals its own 8d6 fire damage which is a coincidence of numbers. A polymorphed wizard does the same damage as the real thing with its Swallow Whole attack, but does significantly less otherwise.
Exactly. Now Oxybe's DM allows the spell to give his wizard one of the Rehmorazz Special Qualites and that is a fine house rule for his game.
It is not however the correct ruling.
Now if he uses Shapechange then it would be all good.
Wait, what? What do you mean "exactly"? Saying that makes it sound like you're agreeing with me, but I listed three completely different interpretations. Do you agree with my central message, which is that the Swallow Whole (and Heat) abilities aren't clear enough? Because I don't see how you do if you then immediately flop into the Special Qualities side of things again. The Gibbering Orb, Tarrasque, Purple Worm, and Behir all have Swallow Whole as well and all do Crushing Damage + Elemental Damage (generally acid) and all use the exact same wording as the Rehmorazz:
A swallowed creature takes QUANTITY points of bludgeoning damage and QUANTITY points of ELEMENT damage per round from the CREATURE'S gizzard/digestive juices.
Looking at that the swallowed PC explicitly takes the damage from the gizzard, not the Heat ability, and since a polymorphed Wizard does have a gizzard the target takes the damage.
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3 years ago ::
May 24, 2010 - 9:18PM
#472
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2003
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47 pages in feeding a Troll.??
More like 23/45-46 pages of a tangental subjects that may or may not have involved trolls and/or trolling. Some of which has been annoying, some of which has been rather interesting.
Knowing is Half the Battle.
The Other Half is VIOLENCE.
Imagine a lightsaber duel between Optimus Prime and Batman. You're welcome.
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3 years ago ::
May 24, 2010 - 9:35PM
#473
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Wait, what? What do you mean "exactly"? .
Lol, I mean exactly there are several ways to read the power.
Saying that makes it sound like you're agreeing with me, but I listed three completely different interpretations. Do you agree with my central message, which is that the Swallow Whole (and Heat) abilities aren't clear enough? Because I don't see how you do if you then immediately flop into the Special Qualities side of things again. The Gibbering Orb, Tarrasque, Purple Worm, and Behir all have Swallow Whole as well and all do Crushing Damage + Elemental Damage (generally acid) and all use the exact same wording as the Rehmorazz:
A swallowed creature takes QUANTITY points of bludgeoning damage and QUANTITY points of ELEMENT damage per round from the CREATURE'S gizzard/digestive juices.
Looking at that the swallowed PC explicitly takes the damage from the gizzard, not the Heat ability, and since a polymorphed Wizard does have a gizzard the target takes the damage.
Of course he will have a gizzard, but it does not mean he will have a burning gizzard.
Unless you are being particularly obtuse.
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
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"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
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Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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3 years ago ::
May 24, 2010 - 9:47PM
#474
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The other amusing thing that just came to me about polymorphing into a Remorhaz was the fact you were sending your d4 hp Mage into melee combat.
Even with the Reorhaz's Con of 21 you would only have about 54 hp and we have already had some posters claim that the party does not even want to waste healing resources on the fighter!
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
Show
"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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3 years ago ::
May 24, 2010 - 9:50PM
#475
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
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47 pages in feeding a Troll.??
More like 23/45-46 pages of a tangental subjects that may or may not have involved trolls and/or trolling. Some of which has been annoying, some of which has been rather interesting.
It seems as if a major part of the General Questions forum is beating up straw-men / trolls who ask the same 5 questions that arise from basic misunderstandings of the 4e system (or at least failing to have read any of the books.
1) What happens if a minion stubs his toe?
2) Why can't my PC use the exact same power the monster used?
3) How come "X" mechanic exists to keep challenges balanced as you level -- shouldn't the game only be balanced at a few levels and in a few situations like prior edition X?
4) Why aren't wizards / CodZillas uber Haxxor anymore?
5) Why can't I take role playing flaws which have no actual detriment in exchange for mechanical virtues that make me stronger?
Or variations thereof. To be fair, it can be kind of fun to out argue these people. Easy and wasteful, but fun nonetheless.
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3 years ago ::
May 24, 2010 - 10:06PM
#476
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Wait, what? What do you mean "exactly"? .
Lol, I mean exactly there are several ways to read the power.
Saying that makes it sound like you're agreeing with me, but I listed three completely different interpretations. Do you agree with my central message, which is that the Swallow Whole (and Heat) abilities aren't clear enough? Because I don't see how you do if you then immediately flop into the Special Qualities side of things again. The Gibbering Orb, Tarrasque, Purple Worm, and Behir all have Swallow Whole as well and all do Crushing Damage + Elemental Damage (generally acid) and all use the exact same wording as the Rehmorazz:
A swallowed creature takes QUANTITY points of bludgeoning damage and QUANTITY points of ELEMENT damage per round from the CREATURE'S gizzard/digestive juices.
Looking at that the swallowed PC explicitly takes the damage from the gizzard, not the Heat ability, and since a polymorphed Wizard does have a gizzard the target takes the damage.
Of course he will have a gizzard, but it does not mean he will have a burning gizzard.
Unless you are being particularly obtuse.
No, I'm not being obtuse. In fact I think I've been pretty clear because even in my initial evaluation of it the only reading that supports your interpretation is for the writing to be a typo in the first place, meaning they wrote a rule so that it works a way they didn't intend it to work.
The format for the Rehmorazz's Swallow Whole is identical to that of several different monsters with the same power. Would a target swallowed by a wizard****-Dire Shark or Tyrannosaurus take the acid damage? Of course.
As written polymorph grants special attacks. The special attack Swallow Whole deals 2d8+12+8d6 damage per round the target is swallowed. The end.
Sure, there's a parallel to the special quality Heat, but that's irrelevant because Swallow Whole is a self contained Extraordinary Special Attack that's consistent with other powers on unrelated monsters. Regardless of the rationale behind the specific damage numbers or the energy type it has nothing to do with the presence or absence of Heat.
Same vein: regardless of the rationale behind true dragons geting Frightful Presence I still get it when I polymorph into a dragon because it meets the criteria for what I get when I polymorph.
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3 years ago ::
May 24, 2010 - 10:22PM
#477
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The other amusing thing that just came to me about polymorphing into a Remorhaz was the fact you were sending your d4 hp Mage into melee combat.
Even with the Reorhaz's Con of 21 you would only have about 54 hp and we have already had some posters claim that the party does not even want to waste healing resources on the fighter!
The waste is because the fighter doesn't put a whole lot back in. The Wizard is putting in all the low level Animal buffs, tons of utility spells, and only needs one round to get Displacement up before transforming.
Also keep in mind the encounter design philosophy of the edition: within its own internal assumptions it's a 4:1 fight. That 54 HP is going to go more than far enough since the target is going to be taking an ass ton of damage every round once it's swallowed and may not even be able to fight back (no light blade or natural weapon = screwed).
Also, as was already stated by others, healing does become fairly trivial with wands of vigor or CLW. It's in-combat healing that's the waste and since the Fighter isn't going to be ending the fight faster than a remorhaz it's more likely the fighter will need in-combat healing which wastes actions and, potentially, spel slots.
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3 years ago ::
May 24, 2010 - 10:23PM
#478
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2005
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A fighter primed for grappling is ONLY good for grappling. They can't do anything else well enough to matter at higher levels.
Therein lies the true problem of fighters in 3.x. You could build a one-trick (sometimes 2 or even 3 tricks, depending on the feat trees...for all the good it did) pony that could do his trick better than even casters on occasion...but that was ALL he could do. He was only good in a tiny handful of types situations at best, often only one.
Any caster...practically regardless of build was able to perform in ALL situations as well or better than non-casters built specifically to excel at that situation.
Did magic items level the playing field, a little, sometimes, but only casters can make the items to begin with, meaning the casters have gone from supremely effective in versatility...to utterly indispensable. No casters, no magic items. Granted, the caster PCs don't have to make them, but casters have to exist, making casters as a type utterly indispensable by the rules. House rules would be required to allow non-casters to create magic items. I mention all that because without casters, Rogues can't psuedo-cast as many have claimed in the past with UMD.
If you built a fighter to have as broad a range of abilities as possible...well, you just ended up sucking at everything...unless the DM and party pandered to your character's disabilities. Truthfully, this may not necessarily have been a design flaw of the fighter as a class...but instead perhaps the lack of situational versatility of any given feat-based ability set. After all, certain feat trees were somewhat useful in a broad sense, but most were only good in a very limited number of scenarios. But, that's pure speculation. Food for thought though. Maybe the feat trees and their narrow focus into OVERspecialization are actually what made fighters walking tanks of pure suck...rather than fighters being a bad class in and of themselves?
I still think casters had too much power for their versatility though. But that's strictly an opinion.
On a closing off-topic note. WTF...the comment window auto-spellchecks and you people STILL can't spell ridiculous? And most of you claim to be college students or otherwise academics and scholars of some type. I mean, rouge vs. rogue I get...both are real words and the checker has no clue which one you intend to use...and it's an easy typo to make and miss, but ridiculous? Pitiful...really pitiful...especially for as often as it's used on these boards.
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3 years ago ::
May 24, 2010 - 10:32PM
#479
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Well, properly built Trip Cheese (which, incidentally, worked best with only a few levels in Fighter) is the most versatile of the feat powers so long as you can assume with some accuracy that you'll be fighting a majority of medium-sized bipedals. I know, it sounds kinda dumb, but it's not like skeletons, zombies, humans, orcs, and the like are uncommon opponents.
I did actually build a really efective level 17 Fighter that contributed well to the party... with 7 levels of Rogue, 8 levels of Warblade, maxed UMD, and a stat roll that would make god himself skeptical if the DM hadn't been watching me.
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3 years ago ::
May 24, 2010 - 10:34PM
#480
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Well, properly built Trip Cheese (which, incidentally, worked best with only a few levels in Fighter) is the most versatile of the feat powers so long as you can assume with some accuracy that you'll be fighting a majority of medium-sized bipedals. I know, it sounds kinda dumb, but it's not like skeletons, zombies, humans, orcs, and the like are uncommon opponents.
I did actually build a really efective level 17 Fighter that contributed well to the party... with 7 levels of Rogue, 8 levels of Warblade, maxed UMD, and a stat roll that would make god himself skeptical if the DM hadn't been watching me.
Lots of people didn't know how tripcheese worked, though, at least re: AoOs. Specifically, that you can't trip someone as they're standing up.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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