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I am playing an almost level 3 version of this build. I rolled my scores though so I have a 18 con & 19 Int after human racial. This allowed me to get rid of the Versatile Expertise feat and for feats now I have White Lotus Riposte, Hybrid Talent (armor thingy) and Rose King's Shield. I went for Assault Swordmage as well instead of Shielding.

Powers are the same except for Booming Blade (to use with Rose King feat) and Charm of Hearts.

With Armor of Agathys on and White Lotus Riposte I end up doing extra damage on every turn and not just on my attack rounds. Have a Shaman & sometimes a Warlord or sometimes a Killswitch in our group too. Get lots of freebie attacks w/Eldritch Strike and got lucky getting those MBA boosting bracers of striking on random loot treasure roll too.

Booming Blade works great on the mobs we have been running into a lot lately. Those buggers shift after attacking you and get a free attack most of the time on another target they shift to. Booming Blade helps out there with the trigger damage. Also I tend to try and use it every other round to pick up some THP when I run low/out.

Charm of Hearts is really, really good in conjunction with Booming Blade. With it on I hit a target w/Booming Blade and move to/move closer to another target w/o provoking OAs and get 10THP.

Hey, so the build now lists Superior Will at level 18, but doesn't that feat require a Wisdom or Charisma score of 15, which it never achieves?

Nov 27, 2010 -- 1:33PM, OutsideAngel wrote:

Hey, so the build now lists Superior Will at level 18, but doesn't that feat require a Wisdom or Charisma score of 15, which it never achieves?

That's a great catch.  I don't have the compendium, so I was just going off memory, and forgot the preq.
Substituting in Improved Defenses, for now. 
I might replace it with Bloodied Boon later, so I can get more thp handed out to my allies. 

I'm not sure how much you value being able to use Eyes of the Vestige (when I've played a swordlock I've found myself almost always wanting to cast Hellish Rebuke for the sweet sweet extra damage) but if you were willing to switch to any race with a bonus to con/int and str/wis, you could get 15 wis by epic tier for Martial Resolve (I like dwarf/mul for the feat selection, but warforged might be thematically appropriate, with Vader being as much machine as man) while still picking up Greater Warding in paragon. I tend to prioritize daze/stun protection on defenders since either basically shuts off your ability to do your job for a turn, though I guess on an Avernian Knight it's not -that- bad since you can still threaten with a little damage.

Nov 26, 2010 -- 11:19PM, AlphatheGreat wrote:

Updated at last!!

Changed a bunch of stuff that needed changing,
made him more viable at all levels (including extensive retraining),
and switched him over to infernal/vestige for greater control ability.

Edit: it's worth noting that there are a lot of ways you could tweak this build to your personal preferences.   An easy one is picking Vestige of Luraje instead of Vestige of Imleth.  Imleth is a -2 debuff on your Eyes of the Vestige, while Luraje immobilizes your Eyes target.  I picked Imleth out of a preference for debuffing, and because Imleth's pact boon is superior.  But you could just as easily decide you value at-will immobilize more.  Which you pick will shape your combat style, and I think they're close enough that I couldn't tell you which is better without extensive playtesting. 

As per the Hybrid Warlock rules, you don't get the Pact Boon from your first Pact (Vestige Pact), only from the pact you select with Twofold Pact, so Vestige Mastery is only going to give you the Eyes of the Vestige augment, not the pact boon.  The only way to get the Vestige Pact Boon is to spend your Hybrid Talent on it, and I'm sure you'd rather have Swordmage Warding.

Can you post a breakdown of those excellent defenses? How much of it is conditonal?

Nov 27, 2010 -- 3:21PM, Zathris wrote:

As per the Hybrid Warlock rules, you don't get the Pact Boon from your first Pact (Vestige Pact), only from the pact you select with Twofold Pact, so Vestige Mastery is only going to give you the Eyes of the Vestige augment, not the pact boon.  The only way to get the Vestige Pact Boon is to spend your Hybrid Talent on it, and I'm sure you'd rather have Swordmage Warding.

If you'll notice, in the post afterward I noted that I was changing the pacts from infernal/vestige to vestige/infernal.  The statement you are quoting applies to the previous version, which had the full vestige boon from Twofold Pact.  Since he no longer has access to the vestige boons, Leraje becomes the easy choice(it's the better augment, and no longer suffers from a weak boon since we're now using the infernal boon instead).


@WEC:
Of the defenses listed, these are the conditionals:
2/2/2/2 against cursed targets from Armor of Dark Majesty
2/2/2/2 against cursed targets from Warding Curse
3/3/3/3 from Trick of Knowledge(Sage of Ages encounter utility)
2/2/2/2 from concealment

-Eyes of the Vestige is important to getting curse spread around, twofold curse comes in before Warding Curse, etc.  This is the biggest deal.
-Trick of Knowledge is a minor action on your turn, so yeah you have to activate it.  The probability of getting the features you need is pretty good, 93.6-97.7% depending on how much of a hurry you're in.
-Phantom Chaussures are the primary source of concealment.  With Ethereal Stride and Farstep Amulet, you should be able to get a teleport in every turn, but obviously this is the most unstable source of defenses for Vader.


So yes, that's a significant portion of Vader's defenses that are not active when the encounter starts.  That's part of the reason I added in Improved/Superior Initiative and grabbed an Eye of Awareness for his head slot, so we can get started quickly on building up those defenses.  A number of his utilities and items are devoted to defensive stuff, so that'll help.

I may have missed it, but why is there versatile expertise for heavy blade and light blade? It does not specifically say what the sorrowsong blade is but I assume it is a longsword since it has to be a heavy blade.

Nov 29, 2010 -- 5:23PM, MinotaurLord wrote:

I may have missed it, but why is there versatile expertise for heavy blade and light blade? It does not specifically say what the sorrowsong blade is but I assume it is a longsword since it has to be a heavy blade.

Because the old CB makes you pick 2 different categories, and swordmages are proficient with heavy and light blades, exactly.  So I picked heavy and light blades :P

You can't use Bracers of Mental Might to use strength based powers.  They are not strength checks.
I don't see the purpose of Avernian knight other than supporting your mark a little and getting the ability to cast ranged attacks in melee.  Don't they have a cloak for that.  You'd lose your teleport extension, but gain a more powerful PP.  I don't know which PP is better, but I feel there's something else out there.  Replace the amulet with a eladrin ring of passage.  Let me check for that cloak.  Perhaps it only comes in the form of armor, which you really can't replace your armor.

Nov 30, 2010 -- 9:37AM, borg285 wrote:

You can't use Bracers of Mental Might to use strength based powers.  They are not strength checks.
I don't see the purpose of Avernian knight other than supporting your mark a little and getting the ability to cast ranged attacks in melee.  Don't they have a cloak for that.  You'd lose your teleport extension, but gain a more powerful PP.  I don't know which PP is better, but I feel there's something else out there.  Replace the amulet with a eladrin ring of passage.  Let me check for that cloak.  Perhaps it only comes in the form of armor, which you really can't replace your armor.

I was wrong, there is no neck slot that prevents the provocation of OAs.

Bracers of Mental Might: Power (Encounter): Free Action. Use this power when making a Strength  attack, Strength check, or Strength-based skill check. Use your  Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier in place of your Strength  modifier to determine the result of the roll.

I must have been blind.  Thank you for showing me the light.

Wouldn't High Imaskar be a better background, seeing you're in forgotten realms?

Nov 30, 2010 -- 10:19AM, borg285 wrote:

I must have been blind.  Thank you for showing me the light.

ANY TIME.

Also, High Imaskar's benefit gives almost the exact same average Arcana check, but with a slightly greater trend toward outliers.

How's the level brakedown of all the tricks you listed under defending your minions ?
Because aside from the usual limitations like Protective Hex being limited by how much stuff you can hit each round, it seems to like the things you listed there are tricks from somewhere through Epic. During Heroic you seem to pick up mostly basic feats to make the build work, and hence largely rely on your single Aegis trigger to defend, and then starting to pick up the good pieces slowly through Paragon.
Hence I wonder how much of Vader is in him during the earlier part of his career ?

PS: You mention WLR together with Baldric of Shielding, but you in fact never have both together because you train out of WLR to get Shared Pact once you get access to the Baldric. Probably a snippet left from an earlier revision.

Nov 30, 2010 -- 9:37AM, borg285 wrote:

I don't see the purpose of Avernian knight other than supporting your mark a little and getting the ability to cast ranged attacks in melee.  Don't they have a cloak for that.  You'd lose your teleport extension, but gain a more powerful PP.  I don't know which PP is better, but I feel there's something else out there.  Replace the amulet with a eladrin ring of passage.  Let me check for that cloak.  Perhaps it only comes in the form of armor, which you really can't replace your armor.

As you noted, there's no neck slot.  Also, rings are kind of a hot commodity, I really wouldn't waste one on an eladrin ring of passage any later than early epic.
It really is a pretty big deal.
Also, don't underestimate the effect of the Avernian Knight's mark.  In practice, Vader was pumping out a fair bit of damage with it.  It was especially nice given that there were a lot of dazes in one of those encounters.  Until I can find a suitable replacement for Superior Will, having a mark punishment not vulnerable to action restriction is wonderful.

Nov 30, 2010 -- 10:26AM, borg285 wrote:

Wouldn't High Imaskar be a better background, seeing you're in forgotten realms?

As WEContact said, the numbers are really very close.  We did a bunch of math the other night and with proper strategy it came out almost exactly even, except that +2 arcana had a considerably higher chance of picking 4 than picking 3 on trick of knowledge, while High Imaskar had a higher chance of picking 3 than picking 4.  That is to say, they are almost exactly the same for getting the desired defenses, but +2 arcana has a higher chance of hitting a jackpot.

Nov 30, 2010 -- 10:47AM, langeweile wrote:

How's the level breakdown of all the tricks you listed under defending your minions ?

Getting pretty busy here for a while, but if I can find the time to write that up I will.

Nov 30, 2010 -- 10:47AM, langeweile wrote:

Because aside from the usual limitations like Protective Hex being limited by how much stuff you can hit each round, it seems to like the things you listed there are tricks from somewhere through Epic. During Heroic you seem to pick up mostly basic feats to make the build work, and hence largely rely on your single Aegis trigger to defend, and then starting to pick up the good pieces slowly through Paragon.
Hence I wonder how much of Vader is in him during the earlier part of his career ?

Keep in mind that this is true of all build concepts that do more than charge or twin strike every round.  They all just add more as levels go on because in DnD, characters get more stuff as they level.
In heroic, any well-optimized defender in heroic will probably perform about the same as Vader, because that's just the nature of heroic: there isn't much to differentiate characters.  And there isn't much need.  One of the big discussions back when we were debating Ultimate Defenders in IRC was that in heroic, Ultimate Defenders tend to look like other defenders.  Sure, there are a few that stand out as different(Dr. No, for example), but most are fairly standard.

But as to what you really want to know, Darth Vader is a Swordmage|Warlock.  Half his powers are warlock powers.  He does a little more damage than your average swordmage, has less hit points, is more feat-crunched, and has maybe a little more control(a larger power list to choose from helps a lot) ability.  The fact that he actually HAS decent ranged options is a big deal right there.  No, he won't stand out as much from other defenders in heroic, but as I said...he doesn't really need to.

I have received several reports that he is very fun and effective in heroic, so you have that.

Nov 30, 2010 -- 10:47AM, langeweile wrote:

PS: You mention WLR together with Baldric of Shielding, but you in fact never have both together because you train out of WLR to get Shared Pact once you get access to the Baldric. Probably a snippet left from an earlier revision.

I guess that was a little confusing, I've rewritten it to make more sense.

As AtG said, I've played the Vader build from level 1 to 13, and he's always been capable enough on the defender front. Double Aegis helps things considerably of course, but his swordmage and warlock tricks in play like Armor of Agathys and Dimensioal Vortex have the power to change battles (don't underestimate the power of eldritch strike either, that slide ruined many days of Team Monster).

Thanks for the detailed response.

But as to what you really want to know, Darth Vader is a Swordmage|Warlock.  Half his powers are warlock powers.  He does a little more damage than your average swordmage, has less hit points, is more feat-crunched, and has maybe a little more control(a larger power list to choose from helps a lot) ability.  The fact that he actually HAS decent ranged options is a big deal right there.  No, he won't stand out as much from other defenders in heroic, but as I said...he doesn't really need to.

I have received several reports that he is very fun and effective in heroic, so you have that.

That's a good point - I was mainly looking at him from a Defender POV.
Though I have the feeling that you could probably improve in that regard by using some retrains, to squeeze out some extra damage / control (by your choice). As one example instead of Improved Initiative you could, until L10, take MC Wizard or Psion to get access to an Orb of Nimble Thoughts and pick up one of those juicy control powers for encounter use.

Keep in mind that this is true of all build concepts that do more than charge or twin strike every round.  They all just add more as levels go on because in DnD, characters get more stuff as they level.
In heroic, any well-optimized defender in heroic will probably perform about the same as Vader, because that's just the nature of heroic: there isn't much to differentiate characters.  And there isn't much need.  One of the big discussions back when we were debating Ultimate Defenders in IRC was that in heroic, Ultimate Defenders tend to look like other defenders.  Sure, there are a few that stand out as different(Dr. No, for example), but most are fairly standard.

Leaving aside my disagreements about "Ultimate Defenders", that's the one point I don't buy, namely that it is impossible to create true standout characters even in Heroic (except for a few rare cases).
I always strife to do it, and even if I mainly run a Paragon concept (like Oracle of Death) I take care to give the build something special during Heroic. But that OTOH is probably the hardest part when nailing down the actual build.

I was wondering if I could get an opinion on my take on the build. I've played this version a bit in paragon and really enjoyed it.


Mul, Swordmage|Warlock, Avernian Knight, Unyielding Sentinel

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Improved Defenses (retrained to Greater Swordmage Warding at Level 12)
Level 6: Toughness
Level 8: Weapon Focus (retrained to Twofold Pact at Level 11)
Level 10: Brawling Warrior
Level 11: Double Aegis (retrained to Total Aegis at Level 21)
Level 12: Twofold Curse
Level 14: Dwarven Durability
Level 16: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 18: Resilience of Stone (retrained to Stoneheart Warrior at Level 22)
Level 20: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 24)
Level 21: Martial Resolve
Level 22: Rapid Aegis Reaction
Level 24: Warding Curse
Level 26: Strength Through Challenge
Level 28: Epic Recovery
Level 30: Epic Will

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Eldritch Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Sword Burst
Infernal Pact: Hellish Rebuke
Hybrid encounter 1: Sword of Sigils
Hybrid daily 1: Armor of Agathys
Hybrid utility 2: Ethereal Stride
Hybrid encounter 3: Clarion Call
Hybrid daily 5: Swordmage Shielding Fire
Hybrid utility 6: Swordmage's Decree (retrained to Quickling Stride at Level 20)
Hybrid encounter 7: Rejuvenating Strike
Hybrid daily 9: Tyrannical Threat
Hybrid utility 10: Reactive Surge
Hybrid encounter 13: Ensnaring Bolts (replaces Sword of Sigils)
Hybrid daily 15: Armor of Agathys (replaces Armor of Agathys)
Hybrid utility 16: Aegis of Lost Souls (retrained to Painful Transference at Level 23)
Hybrid encounter 17: Sea Tyrant's Fury (replaces Clarion Call)
Hybrid daily 19: Free the Storm Within (replaces Swordmage Shielding Fire)
Hybrid utility 22: Ghost Walk
Hybrid encounter 23: Radiant Shield (replaces Rejuvenating Strike)
Hybrid daily 25: Quicksilver Blade (replaces Free the Storm Within)
Hybrid encounter 27: Zutwa's Incandescence (replaces Ensnaring Bolts)
Hybrid daily 29: Forbiddance of the Ninth (replaces Tyrannical Threat)

Edit: Using a khopesh in the mainhand works with both Swordmage Warding and Dwarven Weapon Training.

What are you spending your Hybrid Talent on?

EDIT: Nevermind, I see that you take Greater Swordmage Warding, which implies that you spent your Hybrid Talent on the Swordmage Warding feature.

Swordmage Warding only functions if you have a heavy or light blade in your mainhand. Also, using a Rod in your off-hand will reduce the Warding bonus from +3 to +1, which the Rod Expertise feat only partially patches.

If you are using a heavy or light blade to make the Warding function, you might as well use it as your implement and leave your off-hand free. Rods have some useful enchants, but none of them are worth losing 2 AC or 1 AC and a feat slot.

Hmm, I must have read the feat wrong the first time, I thought the AC bonus from Rod Expertise scaled along with the attack bonus.

But yeah, you're right, none of the rod properties are really worth a point of AC, so scratch that.

My DM gives out Expertise for free, so what are your thoughts on Sacrifice to Caiphon instead. It makes sense from a thematic POV, giving up your essence to the Dark Side to gain more power... not sure though as it's only useful on 1/2 of your encounter powers.

What about attack bonus? I was trimming up my version of your build and it looks like, without Trick of Knowledge and Opal Ring of Remembrance, which don't come online until late epic, we only have +35 to hit with warlock powers and +34 to hit with swordmage powers. That doesn't look great against level 30 tofu.

At level 10, I've got +16 to hit with eldritch strike, +13 with warlock implement attacks, and +12 with swordmage implement attacks. Against level 10 tofu, I need to roll 8, 9, or 10 to connect with a hit, respectively, prior to charge or CA bonuses. Expertise won't help me out til level 15, though I'll probably receive a +3 weapon at 11 or 12.

Unless I'm miscalculating, I'm thinking it might be wise to take Superior Implement (Dagger) instead of psychic lock, which only works when you manage to hit. If you roll between 2 and 6 on Sage of Ages, you're stuck with saving throws at start of turn and unable to gain +2 attack.

Just curious how this build gets 5 trained skills? The Hybrid gets 3, MC gives 1, where does the last come from?

Jan 19, 2011 -- 2:23PM, Harliquinn wrote:

Just curious how this build gets 5 trained skills? The Hybrid gets 3, MC gives 1, where does the last come from?

He's human.

Even if he is more machine now, than man. 

Now I feel stupid

Jan 19, 2011 -- 3:33PM, AlphatheGreat wrote:

Even if he is more machine now, than man. 

I lawled!

I just tried loading Darth Vader into the new Character Builder and I came up with a number of discrepancies one quibble.  Forgive me if I am mistaken, but...

1)
I get AC/Fort/Reflex/Will of 43/39/41/45, while you report 46/43/44/45 (before conditional bonuses).  Improved Defenses and Greater Swordmage Warding don't stack, for one.  Could you describe how you came up with those defenses?

[EDIT:  WHOOPS  I forgot leveling bonuses...  I now get 46/43/44/45]  Completely ignore this one...

2)
You have completely blown out (what is my understanding of) the item budget of 3 items + 29-item gold.  For one thing, you have 4 level 29 items.  Even if you remove the Opal Ring of Remembrance, you still don't have enough gold to purchase the rest of the listed items.  What budget should level 30 Char-Op characters use?

Jan 20, 2011 -- 10:06PM, billyh wrote:

I just tried loading Darth Vader into the new Character Builder and I came up with a number of discrepancies one quibble.  Forgive me if I am mistaken, but...

1)
I get AC/Fort/Reflex/Will of 43/39/41/45, while you report 46/43/44/45 (before conditional bonuses).  Improved Defenses and Greater Swordmage Warding don't stack, for one.  Could you describe how you came up with those defenses?

[EDIT:  WHOOPS  I forgot leveling bonuses...  I now get 46/43/44/45]  Completely ignore this one...

2)
You have completely blown out (what is my understanding of) the item budget of 3 items + 29-item gold.  For one thing, you have 4 level 29 items.  Even if you remove the Opal Ring of Remembrance, you still don't have enough gold to purchase the rest of the listed items.  What budget should level 30 Char-Op characters use?

14 mil is the standard estimate I've heard.  If I'm above that, blame item rarity, which makes it much harder to make sure you're under budget.

Jan 20, 2011 -- 10:06PM, billyh wrote:

You have completely blown out (what is my understanding of) the item budget of 3 items + 29-item gold.  For one thing, you have 4 level 29 items.  Even if you remove the Opal Ring of Remembrance, you still don't have enough gold to purchase the rest of the listed items.  What budget should level 30 Char-Op characters use?

11,500,000g is what that should give you. However that basically rips you off vs actually leveling a character, where the total would be 18,435,539g for a 5 person party. Basically you lose money using the character creation guidelines starting at level 4 and it gets worse from there. When I let people create chracters at higher level they get the flat gold amount they would have had if they'd been adventuring the whole time and just let them buy things.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Don't your characters ever spend money? Over the course of 29 levels they surely must've disenchanted stuff, used rituals, alchemical items, etc, etc?

Jan 21, 2011 -- 1:36AM, Pluisjen wrote:

Don't your characters ever spend money? Over the course of 29 levels they surely must've disenchanted stuff, used rituals, alchemical items, etc, etc?

Not enough to equal 7 million gold, no. Due to the way the value of things scales you just don't lose that much from disenchanting in regular play if you look at the total wealth curve. And consumables are worthless for the most part, for almost precisely this reason. All the good rituals are basically free to cast. So, sure, you might lose about 4 million of that (and indeed I believe the reason that is the common estimate is someone went through and did the math).

In LFR: Also no, for different reasons.

I don't know about LFR. 7 million does sound like a lot, but I can imagine it differing from game to game. Think it depends on the person and the party as well, I've only known my own and they burn through a lot of rituals and consumables (though arguably they're only level 7 so far) and I think they might get pretty close to that amount.

They probably err'd on the side of caution to avoid people getting their characters killed off so they could return with phatter lootz. 

I retired my Darth Vader build at a few hundred xp from 3rd lvl because we needed a controller. We also gained 2 other characters who started at 3rd level. When we made the characters using the CB and letting it give us gear/magic items and starting cash, just 1 new character had more money/magic then our entire previous party of 4 had gained so far. This was using WotC adventures too.

We still haven't been to a city or village yet!

The last original character has been shooting letter openers from his eyes (he isn't that SHARP lol) at the DM whenever we mention our cash amount or use a magic item power.

So yeah if our characters die, it doesn't seem to hurt as bad, knowing you can make the same type or a different one w/lots of gold and magic items too. The rest of the party will gather up our platinum/gold and be like the Kool-Aid Man.

Very cool build you have here, I like both the classes but never realized how well they can work together and probably wouldn't have thought of the PP you chose.
I am interested in using this build for a game I may have coming up and I have a question that I hope you can help me with.

If I'm starting at 1st or 2nd level would it be beneficial to take Arcane Implement Proficiency: Heavy Blades and retrain it after getting the Avernian Knight PP? 

Jan 24, 2011 -- 7:43PM, JasonAP wrote:

Very cool build you have here, I like both the classes but never realized how well they can work together and probably wouldn't have thought of the PP you chose.
I am interested in using this build for a game I may have coming up and I have a question that I hope you can help me with.

If I'm starting at 1st or 2nd level would it be beneficial to take Arcane Implement Proficiency: Heavy Blades and retrain it after getting the Avernian Knight PP? 

As a hybrid, all implements with which you are proficient apply to both your classes.  You are a swordmage, so you are proficient with light blades for both warlock and swordmage powers.


Which is quite academic, because essentials changed it anyway.  Now you can use any of your implements with any of your powers. 

Hey, Alpha

I noticed that rod of corruption was removed from the build, with Eyes of the Vestige?

Also, I see that you have retraining in the feats but: Level 1: White Lotus Riposte (retrained to Shared Pact at Level  19) isn't possible is it?

I understood that you could only retrain feats to those obtainable at that lv.

Feb 25, 2011 -- 9:33PM, Akarashi wrote:

Hey, Alpha

I noticed that rod of corruption was removed from the build, with Eyes of the Vestige?

Also, I see that you have retraining in the feats but: Level 1: White Lotus Riposte (retrained to Shared Pact at Level  19) isn't possible is it?

I understood that you could only retrain feats to those obtainable at that lv.

You can retrain to any feat available at the level you do the retraining.  For example, it's pretty much standard procedure for swordmages to take Double Aegis in paragon, then retrain that to Total Aegis in epic.


Having a rod of corruption around could still be useful, but I didn't know when I'd ever have it in hand to use, and I got rid of most of my swap shenanigans.  With Eyes around, it's not as big a deal anymore, yeah.

Feb 25, 2011 -- 10:01PM, AlphatheGreat wrote:

Feb 25, 2011 -- 9:33PM, Akarashi wrote:

Hey, Alpha

I noticed that rod of corruption was removed from the build, with Eyes of the Vestige?

Also, I see that you have retraining in the feats but: Level 1: White Lotus Riposte (retrained to Shared Pact at Level  19) isn't possible is it?

I understood that you could only retrain feats to those obtainable at that lv.

You can retrain to any feat available at the level you do the retraining.  For example, it's pretty much standard procedure for swordmages to take Double Aegis in paragon, then retrain that to Total Aegis in epic.


Having a rod of corruption around could still be useful, but I didn't know when I'd ever have it in hand to use, and I got rid of most of my swap shenanigans.  With Eyes around, it's not as big a deal anymore, yeah.

Ah, I see now, thank you.

I see that you have : Infernal Pact: Hellish Rebuke as an at-will
I'm still using the old builder, but before you updated the build, It showed hybrid warlocks didn't gain their original boon.

Also, do you have any suggestions of useful magic items for the lower tiers, like P1, P2 or H3?
Edit: I see that Trick of knowledge in tha CB gives +2 to all def, was that a recent change?

Feb 26, 2011 -- 3:07PM, Akarashi wrote:

I see that you have : Infernal Pact: Hellish Rebuke as an at-will
I'm still using the old builder, but before you updated the build, It showed hybrid warlocks didn't gain their original boon.

Also, do you have any suggestions of useful magic items for the lower tiers, like P1, P2 or H3?
Edit: I see that Trick of knowledge in tha CB gives +2 to all def, was that a recent change?

At-wills:
Swordmage: Swordburst or Booming Blade.
Warlock: Eldritch Strike
Human: Eyes of the Vestige
Twofold Pact: Hellish Rebuke
So his primary pact is now Vestige, his twofold is Infernal.

I'm not really sure what items I would prefer in heroic.  In paragon, priority number 1 is getting a Githyanki Silver Sword.  Switch out for a Sorrowsong Blade if/when it becomes available in epic.
Beyond that...
-Armor of Dark Majesty is your armor of choice from the moment you can afford it.
Bracers of Mental Might are a Big Deal when you hit paragon.  Without these, your PP encounter power is useless (and it's a good power).
-Far-Step Amulet is nice to have once you hit lvl10, as this is when you get at-will teleport via -Ethereal Sidestep.  Teleport 1 at-will isn't good enough, so the Amulet gives you the oomph you need to make it a good movement option when you need to avoid OAs in combat.  An Eladrin Ring of Passage is also a bonus in this direction.
-Headband of Intellect, once you have a Gith Silver Sword.  A nice accuracy boost that you'll keep until you replace it with the Opal Ring of Remembrance in mid epic.
-Initiative boosters.  Vader NEEDS his initiative bonus.  The Eye of Awareness is the perfect item for it, but sub-epic you'll want to keep an eye out for alternatives. 
-Foe-Caller gauntlets are beautiful.  Just beautiful.  If I wasn't using Zehir's for the arcana set bonus, I'd have them on level 30 Vader. 


Trick of Knowledge has always given +2 to all defenses, given the right roll.  However, Mark of Warding increases that bonus to +3.  So in any setting that denies dragonmarks, Vader will be at -1 on his defenses until he replaces that feat.

Feb 26, 2011 -- 3:07PM, Akarashi wrote:

[
I see that you have : Infernal Pact: Hellish Rebuke as an at-will
I'm still using the old builder, but before you updated the build, It showed hybrid warlocks didn't gain their original boon.

Also, do you have any suggestions of useful magic items for the lower tiers, like P1, P2 or H3?
Edit: I see that Trick of knowledge in tha CB gives +2 to all def, was that a recent change?

The Boon he doesn't get is the Vestige Boon which is no real loss, I assume the Vestige  Mastery is to gain Immobilize on all Eyes of the Vestige attacks, which is your goto at-will (with AC 55 are you really worried about OAs?).

Playing a lower level version of this (albeit a Sigil Carver) I've obviously found a Staggering Weapon very useful.  Far-Step amulet is a level 29 item, so you have to 'settle' for a Cloak of Translocation (+2 AC/Ref and recharging Dimensional Vortex 1/day is still amazing).
I personally have gone with a Belt of Vim for the Untyped Fort Bonus, the THP from Infernal's Boon is pretty much equal to what you Shield (I also have Bloodied Boon in place of Hestavar since Erathis isn't LFR Legal).  Totemic Belt is also a nice alternative, boosting accuracy and damage on your warlock powers for one encounter.

Feb 26, 2011 -- 11:04PM, Zathris wrote:

The Boon he doesn't get is the Vestige Boon which is no real loss, I assume the Vestige Mastery is to gain Immobilize on all Eyes of the Vestige attacks, which is your goto at-will (with AC 55 are you really worried about OAs?).

I'm a fan of either the immobilize(Leraje) OR the -2 to hit (Imleth).  I really wish I could have both of them active all day, so I could just pick and choose depending on the situation.  But yeah.

Also, Avernian Knight means he doesn't provoke with his ranged attacks.  So yeah, that problem disappears after heroic.

Feb 26, 2011 -- 11:04PM, Zathris wrote:

Playing a lower level version of this (albeit a Sigil Carver) I've obviously found a Staggering Weapon very useful.  Far-Step amulet is a level 29 item, so you have to 'settle' for a Cloak of Translocation (+2 AC/Ref and recharging Dimensional Vortex 1/day is still amazing).
I personally have gone with a Belt of Vim for the Untyped Fort Bonus, the THP from Infernal's Boon is pretty much equal to what you Shield (I also have Bloodied Boon in place of Hestavar since Erathis isn't LFR Legal).  Totemic Belt is also a nice alternative, boosting accuracy and damage on your warlock powers for one encounter.

Good catch on the Far-Step.  I wasn't sure which of my items were epic grabs, so I just tried to go by memory, obviously I missed that one.
I didn't realize the Belt of Vim is untyped, that indeed makes it a great grab before you pick up the Baldric of Shielding at level 18 (assuming you did).  One reason I prefer the Baldric for thp in epic instead of Infernal temps is that I tend to like the Vestige boons.  Ymmv, of course.

Nice to see someone else is playing this build in LFR.
I love vader for it's vasly complex interactions but sometimes fall down when forgetting all of them personally.

I haven't had the opportunity to use eldritch strike tactically or as an OA yet, but I can see how staggering weapon would make it very powerful.

I'm also going to retrain to bloodied boon for a good generation of temps and the cloak and belts are wonderful additions. Also, does Headband of Intellect + Githyanki silver sword = +1 to all attacks?
Do the bracers of mental might also change the damage on the Avernian encounter power?

Thank you to  Alpha for this wonderful build again and Zathris for the brilliant additions a the lower tiers.

Level 23 encounter power seems to be missing from the build summary

Feb 28, 2011 -- 10:57AM, Seeker_of_Truth_02 wrote:

Level 23 encounter power seems to be missing from the build summary

I think that's because one is not taken at that level, the earlier Encounter Powers being preferred.

Feb 28, 2011 -- 11:02AM, Vivianna_Romanones wrote:

Feb 28, 2011 -- 10:57AM, Seeker_of_Truth_02 wrote:

Level 23 encounter power seems to be missing from the build summary

I think that's because one is not taken at that level, the earlier Encounter Powers being preferred.

This.

It's a travesty that the best swordmage defender encounter powers appear at level 3.  Not that the powers are too powerful, but that the swordmage power list is so destitute that there isn't a decent replacement until late epic.

I am playing a warlock|swordmage at level 13 and ran into an interesting problem, my character was eaten by a behir so he only had line of effect to the behir, couldnt port out.  He was grabbed taking damage and most of his encounters are reactions.  However, eldritch strike plus staggering longsword makes it possible to hit and slide the behir around teh battlefield.  I had never driven a monster before but this was quite amusing.

Feb 28, 2011 -- 5:36PM, Taenia wrote:

I am playing a warlock|swordmage at level 13 and ran into an interesting problem, my character was eaten by a behir so he only had line of effect to the behir, couldnt port out.  He was grabbed taking damage and most of his encounters are reactions.  However, eldritch strike plus staggering longsword makes it possible to hit and slide the behir around teh battlefield.  I had never driven a monster before but this was quite amusing.

Wouldn't happen to be playing Revenge of the Giants would you? We had an encounter where the party paladin Divine Challenged a behir and then got eaten. Behir couldn't attack him and had to eat his DC damage the whole encounter. Most damage the paladin has ever managed.

Thats the one, unfortunately i couldnt trigger my mark on him so all i could do was drive him around the map.

Feb 27, 2011 -- 8:55AM, AlphatheGreat wrote:

Feb 26, 2011 -- 11:04PM, Zathris wrote:

Playing a lower level version of this (albeit a Sigil Carver) I've obviously found a Staggering Weapon very useful.  Far-Step amulet is a level 29 item, so you have to 'settle' for a Cloak of Translocation (+2 AC/Ref and recharging Dimensional Vortex 1/day is still amazing).
I personally have gone with a Belt of Vim for the Untyped Fort Bonus, the THP from Infernal's Boon is pretty much equal to what you Shield (I also have Bloodied Boon in place of Hestavar since Erathis isn't LFR Legal).  Totemic Belt is also a nice alternative, boosting accuracy and damage on your warlock powers for one encounter.

Good catch on the Far-Step.  I wasn't sure which of my items were epic grabs, so I just tried to go by memory, obviously I missed that one.
I didn't realize the Belt of Vim is untyped, that indeed makes it a great grab before you pick up the Baldric of Shielding at level 18 (assuming you did).  One reason I prefer the Baldric for thp in epic instead of Infernal temps is that I tend to like the Vestige boons.  Ymmv, of course.

You don't get any Vestige Boon because you're a Hybrid and spent Hybrid Talent on Swordmage Warding.  Twofold Pact doesn't give you the boon of your primary pact anymore.

Mar 1, 2011 -- 1:10AM, Zathris wrote:

You don't get any Vestige Boon because you're a Hybrid and spent Hybrid Talent on Swordmage Warding.  Twofold Pact doesn't give you the boon of your primary pact anymore.

What, did they nerf all the hybrids? Man, the things they chose to "fix" sometimes, and the means they use to fix them. . .

Mar 1, 2011 -- 7:40AM, Vivianna_Romanones wrote:

Mar 1, 2011 -- 1:10AM, Zathris wrote:

You don't get any Vestige Boon because you're a Hybrid and spent Hybrid Talent on Swordmage Warding.  Twofold Pact doesn't give you the boon of your primary pact anymore.

What, did they nerf all the hybrids? Man, the things they chose to "fix" sometimes, and the means they use to fix them. . .

To be fair, one feat giving two pacts boons, an extra at-will, and access to all the feats and perks of two warlock pacts is a lot. This one feat made Hybrid Warlock basically better than its own class. Don't get me wrong, I love the original version, but I understand why they nerfed it. Sometimes they do errata right, not often, but it does happen.

Vestige pact powers specifically grant you access to the boon in question, so I've been going off that interpretation.  Since I have the Vestige Eldritch Pact, the powers work for me normally.
Yes, this is a workaround of the apparent intention(that hybrids have to pay for their boons), but I don't really care.  They're the ones that made Vestige as wonky as it is.


If I'm gonna be using them to augment my Eyes of the Vestige in epic, I might as well use the boon if it's good enough (iirc, one of Imleth/Leraje is good enough, the other is not).

If it's allowed at your tables that's fine, I just wanted to point out that the RAI is clear and RAW is at best questionable.

Vestige Pact Boon - "You have a pact boon associated with your active vestige." without the feature "Vestige Pact Boon" you can't use the boon of your active vestige much the same way that Eyes of the Vestige - Zutwa does nothing if you don't have the Prime Shot feature.

Does this build require you to be Human? Or could it work with an Eladrin?

Mar 3, 2011 -- 6:32PM, Zathris wrote:

If it's allowed at your tables that's fine, I just wanted to point out that the RAI is clear and RAW is at best questionable.

Vestige Pact Boon - "You have a pact boon associated with your active vestige." without the feature "Vestige Pact Boon" you can't use the boon of your active vestige much the same way that Eyes of the Vestige - Zutwa does nothing if you don't have the Prime Shot feature.

You have a good point.
And I have no problem with choosing a different belt item.  I like the baldric because I feel like it will front me some temps before I get any infernal temps.

Mar 5, 2011 -- 1:04AM, Endrek03 wrote:

Does this build require you to be Human? Or could it work with an Eladrin?

Just go in with both eyes open:

The Bad:
--Human is the current means of getting Eyes of the Vestige in heroic.  So you'll either need to go without Eldritch Strike and accept your OAs suck, or just live without Eyes of the Vestige.
--Vader is very tight on feats, so Eladrin will always feel like you don't have enough feats.


The Good:
--Fey Step is handy.
--Int/dex will help your initiative a little.
--With a strong dex, it might be worth boosting your dex instead of Wis.  You'll lose some will defense, but you'll qualify for Heavy Blade Opportunity in paragon.  HBO+Booming Blade will grant you a decent OA to replace eldritch strike, so at least you can have Eyes of the Vestige in paragon.  Again, that's making the feat-crunch worse, but it would be worthwhile.


Keep in mind that the build was originally not vestige at all.  You can do decently by just sticking with star pact in heroic and infernal in paragon (or vice versa.  Dire Radiance + Ulban's Flare is pretty sweet).

The addition of Con to genasi and Int to warforged has opened the opportunity for some intriguing variants to Vader.

Warforged, in particular, means that now you can play a Darth who is "more machine now, than man" and not feel like you are totally gimping yourself!

Unfortunately, human is currently at the heart of our heroic strategy (Eyes of the Vestige for curse propagation), so it'll take some serious reworking to turn out a warforged variant.  He'll also be even more feat-starved than usual.

Still, he'll come out really tough, and that extra point of con you get over human is strong.  And it's really hard to beat that flavor.  The fluff in the racial attribute article even calls out the possibility of "int" warforged having a black body!

Added the new warforged variant of Vader.

Very similar, but tighter on feats til epic.  No Eyes of the Vestige in heroic, so he uses Booming Blade instead of Swordburst to supplement his defending while he spends minors on curse propagation, retraining to swordburst when the sweet stuff hits in paragon.

I've left the power selection unfinished.
Power selection will otherwise be much the same, except that he won't take any Vestige dailies.  Pick a suitable control or nova daily power.  Hybrid pact is now Star, as the few con-based star powers are pretty sweet, and worth considering.

Shouldn't the Warforged variant be this guy:
 

With that many weapons, though, his Swordmage Warding may go into negatives.
 

Has anyone tried a Darth Maul variation?

Darth Maul reduced his Warding by using a double weapon and got himself killed, so, no.

I've toyed around with an Elf Swordmage what wields a double scimitar.  Valenar Weapon Warding + defensive property = normal Warding bonus.  It's not too great from a mechanical/optimisation standpoint.  But easily qualifying for Arcane Reach is nice, so in paragon you can Sword Burst w/in 2 squares and flavor it as throwing your double scimitar.  Again it's not great, but it's cool.

Mar 22, 2011 -- 7:10AM, WEContact wrote:

Darth Maul reduced his Warding by using a double weapon and got himself killed, so, no.

On the plus side, his dual implement spellcaster gave him +6 damage, so he took one of them with him...

Heck, if he hadn't been outnumbered and Obi Wan made a save against hazardous terrain, he'd have won entirely.

For an LFR game, since you can't take the Mark of Warding, how is taking Arcane Familiar and grabbing a gallant hawk?

Edit: as an additional question, why are you trained in thievery if you don't take fast hands?

Apr 5, 2011 -- 4:58PM, zelink551 wrote:

For an LFR game, since you can't take the Mark of Warding, how is taking Arcane Familiar and grabbing a gallant hawk?

Edit: as an additional question, why are you trained in thievery if you don't take fast hands?

Gallant Hawk only works against adjacent targets, which really isn't good enough.  As a swordmage, standard marking procedure is to get away from my marked targets.  
There are plenty of other more desirable feats.

What do you suggest for the level 6 and 8 feats (in LFR), since you technically can't take Shield of Hestavar either (Erathis isn't a Forgotten Realms Diety).

And is thievery just for fluff? (I can take history or religion w/o any issues?)

Erathis is Gond in LFR, so Shield of Hestavar may be taken if you follow Gond.  Reflavor Feat as Shield of the Smith.

Apr 5, 2011 -- 6:23PM, zelink551 wrote:

And is thievery just for fluff? (I can take history or religion w/o any issues?)

Sorry, I missed that in your earlier post.

Thievery is largely a relic of the times when I had Fast Hands, yes.

I left it in because it's also a very useful RP skill, and because it allows easy retraining into Fast Hands if you need it for whatever reason.

So no, I don't suspect you'll have troubles with history or religion.


@Erathis:  what Zathris said.  LFR diety equivalents are in the LFR rules, I believe.

Can someone help me with the Arcana numbers... I'm only getting +42 instead of +44
Breakdown is

15 (base)+7 (int)+4 (item)+ 2(background)+3 (feat)+6(ED)+5(trained)=42. Sorry for the minor issue. Thanks!

Apr 21, 2011 -- 10:43PM, zelink551 wrote:

Can someone help me with the Arcana numbers... I'm only getting +42 instead of +44
Breakdown is

15 (base)+7 (int)+4 (item)+ 2(background)+3 (feat)+6(ED)+5(trained)=42. Sorry for the minor issue. Thanks!

He gets a +2 set bonus from Zehir's Gloves and Avandra's Ring.

Gotcha, thanks!

Another question, sorry to keep pestering,
Given my understanding of Hybrid Pact (and what I've gleaned from others), how do you use the Vestige Pact boons/Vestige Mastery if you can't actually use them because you're a Hybrid?

Apr 22, 2011 -- 1:22PM, zelink551 wrote:

Gotcha, thanks!

Another question, sorry to keep pestering,
Given my understanding of Hybrid Pact (and what I've gleaned from others), how do you use the Vestige Pact boons/Vestige Mastery if you can't actually use them because you're a Hybrid?

I don't use the Vestige Boons, but the hybrid doesn't restrict you from using the Vestige Augments. 

I posted this in the Q&A thread, but maybe it makes more sense to ask it here.

I'm making a shielding swordmage/warlock Avernian Knight hybrid,  mostly based around interrupts like transposing/vortex and such. Most of  my powers are implement powers, other than MBA, transposing and likely  one other encounter/daily. And I'm a half elf.

Which of the three should I go with for weapon setups?

1.  Spend feat on superior implement accurate dagger, later on spend a feat  on implement focus. Maybe if I can spare a third feat get one on weapon  focus. Although doubtful if I can.
So 1d4 weapon with +3/+2 to hit with +3 to implement damage. (costs 2 feats)

2.  Choose a bastard sword. Spend a feat on implement focus, maybe a feat on weapon focus.
1d10 +3/+1 to hit with +3 to both damages. (costs 2 feats, or 1 if I forgo weapon focus)

3. Choose a scimitar and go with Valenar weapon training.
1d8 +2/+2 to hit with +4 to both damages (costing 1 feat)

I  am fairly feat constrained with this build, but I'm not sure what the  tipping point between hit and damage is here. Seems like the choice  should be 1 or 3, but I'm not sure.

Note: I'm going with a psychic at will for my dilettante ability, so I don't need to poach psychic weapon for the bonus there.

You can use a longsword and utilize zero feats...

Well sure then that is case 2 again. I think I was confused since CB seems to give Swordmages Fullbade/Bastard Sword for free. Regardless though it is still the same question. Have better MBA and 1-2 attacks that use weapons or +1 to hit on all my implement attacks?

I would lean toward neither personally, you're gonna be featstarved as it is, and spending feats to improve a lackluster MBA into a still lackluster MBA isn't worth it. If anything, I would go Bastard sword, but I would normally keep a longsword.

Well that is where the nice thing is with Valenar Weapon Training. I get +3 damage with that instead of +2, and it applies to all my implement and weapon powers. So for one feat I get the most damage overall, but I lose the 1 to hit on Eldritch Strike, Transposing Lunge and the Avernian Knight powers. It gives me the same +hit for implement attacks as Longsword, and saves a feat.

Longsword (+3 prof, need 2 feats for full damage support) vs Scimitar (+2 prof, need 1 feat for full improved damage support)

Then there is accuracte dagger, which gives me the least damage on the weapon attacks and takes the extra feat over longsword, but gives that +1 hit. It seems like the best bang for the buck when considering feats is the Scimitar, but the best damage for overall would likely be the accurate dagger, but that would be committing to 2 more feats.

You're writing the same thing in multiple posts. It seems like you have your beliefs on damage. That's great, but you're ignoring what I'm saying. If you want damage you should play assault, as you'll have more uses for your MBA.

I'm going to echo zelink a little here.

Damage is generally a tertiary concern for a Vader-type build.  There are really more feats you'd want than you have slots, adding in damage feats is just not cost-effective.

So that leaves really two choices:

1. Accurate dagger.
2. Leave well enough alone (longsword).

In case 1, you get more accuracy on the majority of your powers, which is good for anyone.
On the other hand, your already low damage sinks even further.  While damage isn't terribly important, 1d8->1d4 on your OAs will be a noticable cut.  I'm not sure trading a feat and some OA effectiveness for accuracy on several powers is worth it.  Regardless, this can be a viable route.

In case 2, you follow the traditional Vader route more closely.  Having a psychic dilettante does not in any way make a psychic weapon less potent.  One of the great things about Vader is being able to throw that -2 debuff from psychic lock on everything, especially Transposing Lunge and Dimensional Vortex.

True enough. I'm probably just trying too hard to have my cake and eat it. I like to do good damage, since having higher damage is good in that it makes me a more threatening defender, but yeah this isn't the focus of this build either. I'll probably go with the longsword then and spare myself the feat.

I'm likely even a bit more feat starved than usual, as going for dilettante does cost a couple feats to get things working like I want.

One more question. As I've been building my character I don't see how one thing works. You took infernal pact from twofold pact, which gets you the boon and such. But the hybrid one at level 1 gets you Vestige. Which means you never get the boon or at-wills for there. Thus I don't see how choosing Vestige daily powers gets you around that. Or does the wording in the daily powers override the:

This class feature functions as the warlock class feature, except that  you don’t gain the at-will attack power or the Pact Boon granted by it.

The wording for Vestige Pact boon is as follows:

Effect: The pact boons associated with the primary vestiges are  given below. Other pact boons are described in the daily attack powers  that give you access to new vestiges.

Just something I'm confused about. I'd like to go with Infernal at 11 and Vestige at 1 since most of the time I prefer the infernal bonus. Or is just that from those powers you get the vestige augment but not the boon? That must be it.

Correct. But the intent here is to get the Boon Augments which you do get.

Yes, augments are the goal.

However, that's tough with a half-elf, as the current incarnation of Vader relies on the human at-will to pick up Eyes of the Vestige.  The only other way is to pick up Eyes as your warlock at-will instead of Eldritch Strike, which really just isn't worth it in my opinion.

If you'll notice in the warforged version of Vader, he starts as Star Pact then goes to infernal at 11th.  This is entirely because Star Pact generally has better powers than Vestige, given you have no use for the vestige daily riders (it also makes for amazing flavor.  A warrior of the stars who fights with mystic powers, fallen into worship of dark powers, and is more machine now than man?)

Are there any updates on this build alot of stuff has been errata. and this is a really cool concept. 

Just wanted to second that, love the idea and would like to see it updated if possible

First, I love this build. I wish I had read it before I made my swordmage, as this would have been great to try. The thing is...

May 30, 2011 -- 2:58PM, AlphatheGreat wrote:

Damage is generally a tertiary concern for a Vader-type build. 

I understand you mean your defenderlock|swordmage build, but honestly if you think about it Vader's all about flipping out with the dark side and killing things. So... despite the fact that this is one of the most memorable builds I've seen, I think it fails at being Vader unless you squint your eyes and dont think about it too much. I think Vader would be a Blackguard/Barbarian... community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... The thing is... I'm not as good at the whole CharOp thing. 

Meanwhile, your build fails at being Vader because it's incredibly bad.

Jan 23, 2012 -- 6:13PM, MacMathan wrote:

Just wanted to second that, love the idea and would like to see it updated if possible

I may take some time to get caught up and update things.  I'm trying to wean myself off of video games (again), and may have more time.

Jan 28, 2012 -- 10:21PM, houkama wrote:

First, I love this build. I wish I had read it before I made my swordmage, as this would have been great to try. The thing is...

May 30, 2011 -- 2:58PM, AlphatheGreat wrote:

Damage is generally a tertiary concern for a Vader-type build. 

I understand you mean your defenderlock|swordmage build, but honestly if you think about it Vader's all about flipping out with the dark side and killing things. So... despite the fact that this is one of the most memorable builds I've seen, I think it fails at being Vader unless you squint your eyes and dont think about it too much. I think Vader would be a Blackguard/Barbarian... community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... The thing is... I'm not as good at the whole CharOp thing. 

"Vader-type" refers specifically to the type of build herein presented, a swordmage|warlock that uses most of the same tools I used.  
I get to use the label because I got my build popularized first.

As for your contention on the legitimacy of the Vader title, I believe the most relevant points were made in your thread.
All I'd like to add is that I did not in fact create this build trying to mimic Darth Vader, but rather came up with the concept then looked for a good name to match it (as I do with all my builds).  

To repeat: Darth Vader is not a "who looks most like a movie character" build,
but is rather a fully functional concept that was at the leading edge of practical optimization when I designed him.  I consider him my greatest accomplishment in 4e, and enough folks cite the build even now that I feel I can afford to be proud of it.

I named him Darth Vader because it was catchy, the fluff fit the mechanics very well, and Darth Vader is as bad-*** as this build is.

You could also argue that a psion|avenger best represents Vader. Big sword, psionic powers, and follows some spooky religion. But that build, like the Blackguard|Barbarian, isn't iconic enough to be remembered by anyone. This build, on the other hand, is. It claimed Vader first, and everyone agrees that it is powerful and awesome enough to remain the one true Vader. 

Good to see you again Alpha, I enjoyed your earlier work! 

I'm gonna be trying this build friday night, what would you say some good starting items and low level magic items are?

This build is pretty awesome. I'm playing with the idea of running it/a variant in one of my next campaigns. I have a few questions:
What themes would work best for this type of build? Is there anything  that grants more mileage than guardian Order Adept?
What other feats are there to take into consideration, assuming my DM feels like handing out free/extra feats?
Which items are the most important ones to have prior to epic/paragon?

I like the build but one issue I keep having when building characters, especially feat-intensive ones, is "wasting" Paragon Path powers when I don't have the attack stat to make it at least viable. For example, I tried building an INT/CHA Swordmage/Warlock with the Angelic Avenger PP that fit the flavor of what I was trying to do very well and while the CHA mod damage to bloodied enemies was great, the free Superior Weapon feat was nice, etc. I still hated having "dead" spots on my power list (as well as a brutally bad FORT). 

Jan 22, 2013 -- 1:32PM, Gunthar wrote:

I like the build but one issue I keep having when building characters, especially feat-intensive ones, is "wasting" Paragon Path powers when I don't have the attack stat to make it at least viable. For example, I tried building an INT/CHA Swordmage/Warlock with the Angelic Avenger PP that fit the flavor of what I was trying to do very well and while the CHA mod damage to bloodied enemies was great, the free Superior Weapon feat was nice, etc. I still hated having "dead" spots on my power list (as well as a brutally bad FORT). 

No room for powerswap?

Jan 22, 2013 -- 1:32PM, Gunthar wrote:

I like the build but one issue I keep having when building characters, especially feat-intensive ones, is "wasting" Paragon Path powers when I don't have the attack stat to make it at least viable. For example, I tried building an INT/CHA Swordmage/Warlock with the Angelic Avenger PP that fit the flavor of what I was trying to do very well and while the CHA mod damage to bloodied enemies was great, the free Superior Weapon feat was nice, etc. I still hated having "dead" spots on my power list (as well as a brutally bad FORT). 

Do the Bracers of Mental Might not fix this?

Taking a better PP also fixes that

Too feat starved to powerswap and bracers took up already used arm slot for one attack/encounter, which was not worth it. It was a flavor choice that might have been decent but I ended up going in a different direction because the combo really didn't work right.

I've also been somewhat unsatisfied with the PP, seeing how it takes up an item and a feat slot and I haven't been loving Battle Awareness by itself in testing. Any suggestions for replacements? I'm liking Umbral Cabalist at the moment.

Edit: Nevermind, for some reason I thought Vader doesn't qualify for Sigil Carver. I think I'm going with that.

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I've recently gotten back into D&D and have brought the char I was using out of retirement. Was somewhat close to Vader, but I went with Sigil Carver rather than Avernian. However, my question is this, between the lvl 15 and 19 daily powers you go with Ward of Scales at lvl 19. Wouldn't Reaper's Challenge be a better choice since it targets Will and doesn't require an action to sustain? I understand that Ward of Scales gives 1 ally DR (your con mod) (all) against anything that attacks them, but Reaper's Challenge, in a sense, does the same thing (albeit weakening the target of RC whenever they attack anything without targeting you).

I guess you can say I'm just trying to outweigh the cost/benefit between the two, but am stuck at the point of practical usage.