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3 years ago ::
Jun 09, 2010 - 10:37PM
#681
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Oh, as for the Evil Alignments, I assume that one would play a heroic campaign as the books have directed. Evil is for the enemies. Thank you.
The books don't direct, they suggest. Plus since man is his own worst enemy and evil is for enemies, by your arguement evil is for everyone. Case closed. 
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3 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2010 - 2:46AM
#682
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2009
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I'd rather alignment stay in place, but become completely optional with NO mechanics tied to them at all. 4E has taken a good step in the right direction, but have left a few dangling principles still around. Just a tiny pinch further and it'll be just right. Well, just right for me, that is. Naturally.
I want alignment in D&D to be like a gun. I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. As it is now, it's pretty damn close. One more little shove and it'll be there.
I've tried to stay away (I really did), but I disagree with you, Hocus. By leaving the few dangling principles around, it demonstrates to those that WANT to have a beefier (ie. more mechanical) alignment system in place, how it can be done. I was mentioned earlier, and should take the time to clarify. Regarding mechanical effects there is an item currently which stands as such an example - the Righteous Weapon enchantment. A quick review states what I've said EVERY time this debate comes up. It's a property - LIKE ANY OTHER - to be used or not as a group sees fit.
edited to add:
No alignment restriction for classes/PP/ED, no spells that uses against you, it simply gives a player a starting point for how the character is.
Incorrect. See - Harper of Legend. Again - a property, like any other.
Through the ages, many would wonder "Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?"
I wonder "Does the art of discourse on the internet imitate the art of discourse in life or does the art of discourse in life imitate the art of discourse on the internet?"
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3 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2010 - 4:50AM
#683
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2006
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Well, be unaligned and it is removed from the game.
This causes fights unless EVERYONE in the group is of the same mind.
You can do whatever you want, worship any diety and there are no negatives either way.
Social discomfort due to clashing with other players is most definately a negative.
If you do not like the sample world in the PHB fine, make your own without any concept of good and evil and move on.
Name one person on this forum who said anything about having no concept of good and evil in the game world. No alignments =/= no concept of good and evil.
How does having alignment in the book for those who want it, and having unaligned for those who do not a bad thing?
If it's presented as an optional rule and not some sort of cosmic force of the universe, it isn't bad. If it's a solid rule presented as a cosmic force more powerful than a locomotive deity, it's a large problem. At that point it becomes a HUGE disconnect in the game. You end up with a world where "Alignment is a universally cosmic force that dwarfs deities and is 100% non-existant at the same time." It does not compute.
Even you admit the concepts of good and evil are cosmic forces bigger than Dieties, because even some Dieties choose to follow one side or the other. So how is saying the "Alignments" of Good and Evil are universal forces bigger than deities or any other allegiances you might have any different?
As far as fights and/or social discomfort i do not see how it is caused by alignment. The player who is playing a character that will do only good things will still clash with the character who says "the ends justify the means". The character that wants to torture a prisoner to get information may clash with the character who is a "do gooder", the character who is a religeous zelot may still clash with those who do profess to the same religeon, that is called role playing.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2010 - 6:29AM
#684
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2006
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edited to add:
No alignment restriction for classes/PP/ED, no spells that uses against you, it simply gives a player a starting point for how the character is.
Incorrect. See - Harper of Legend. Again - a property, like any other.
So no one in my world can be a "Purple dragon Knight" because I do not have a city called Comyr? If it is a property like any other, it is changable.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2010 - 8:04AM
#685
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2009
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So no one in my world can be a "Purple dragon Knight" because I do not have a city called Comyr? If it is a property like any other, it is changable.
No argument, there. Changing, however, is the territory of house-rules. Not a bad thing, mind you - I even said earlier - to be used or not as the group sees fit.
Through the ages, many would wonder "Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?"
I wonder "Does the art of discourse on the internet imitate the art of discourse in life or does the art of discourse in life imitate the art of discourse on the internet?"
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3 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2010 - 8:17AM
#686
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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Even you admit the concepts of good and evil are cosmic forces bigger than Dieties, because even some Dieties choose to follow one side or the other.
I don't know who you were reading, but it wasn't me. I never said any such thing. The closest I came was to say that the concepts of good and evil exist outside of alignment. The second closest I came was to quote a problem portion of the book.
So how is saying the "Alignments" of Good and Evil are universal forces bigger than deities or any other allegiances you might have any different?
Don't ask me. Ask the person who said what you read.
As far as fights and/or social discomfort i do not see how it is caused by alignment.
The DM and two players want alignment in the game. Two other players don't want alignment at all. Having two completely different systems within the game and even the party is disruptive, especially when 3 people(including the DM) are playing a game that by the rules states that alignment is a cosmic force more powerful than gods and the other two are claiming that there is no such force. It causes arguments and discomfort in the game. Alignment needs to be for everyone or for no one, it really shouldn't be something cherry picked on a person to person basis.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2010 - 8:30AM
#687
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2009
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The DM and two players want alignment in the game. Two other players don't want alignment at all. Having two completely different systems within the game and even the party is disruptive, especially when 3 people(including the DM) are playing a game that by the rules states that alignment is a cosmic force more powerful than gods and the other two are claiming that there is no such force. It causes arguments and discomfort in the game. Alignment needs to be for everyone or for no one, it really shouldn't be something cherry picked on a person to person basis.
Bad example Max - you can substitute ANY aspect of the game and the same result applies. You are describing an issue with a group - not an issue with alignment. In particular, The two claiming there is no such force are insisting on a house-rule that the others do not wish to adopt. If I (and another) insisted that a group use my homebrew "aid another" rule, would you say that "aid another" had to go? This is EXACTLY what you did with this example.
Through the ages, many would wonder "Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?"
I wonder "Does the art of discourse on the internet imitate the art of discourse in life or does the art of discourse in life imitate the art of discourse on the internet?"
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3 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2010 - 9:45AM
#688
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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The DM and two players want alignment in the game. Two other players don't want alignment at all. Having two completely different systems within the game and even the party is disruptive, especially when 3 people(including the DM) are playing a game that by the rules states that alignment is a cosmic force more powerful than gods and the other two are claiming that there is no such force. It causes arguments and discomfort in the game. Alignment needs to be for everyone or for no one, it really shouldn't be something cherry picked on a person to person basis.
Bad example Max - you can substitute ANY aspect of the game and the same result applies. You are describing an issue with a group - not an issue with alignment. In particular, The two claiming there is no such force are insisting on a house-rule that the others do not wish to adopt. If I (and another) insisted that a group use my homebrew "aid another" rule, would you say that "aid another" had to go? This is EXACTLY what you did with this example.
Not really PBN. Alignment is unique in that individual players can choose whether or not they wish to play with it. The opt out clause is built into alignment itself. If I walk into any 4ed game, I can choose to not to use alignment and create a personality and code for my character to play by, completely ignoring all alignment rules. The rest of the rules are not like that. It would be a house rule for them to force me to play with alignment.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2010 - 9:52AM
#689
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2009
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Not really PBN. Alignment is unique in that individual players can choose whether or not they wish to play with it. The opt out clause is built into alignment itself. The rest of the rules are not like that. If I walk into any 4ed game, I can choose to not to use alignment and create a personality and code for my character to play by, completely ignoring all alignment rules. It would be a house rule for them to force me to play with alignment.
Check the quoted post Max - you stated that they insist that there is no such cosmic force. PHB1 disavows that notion. Their insistance is to a house-rule, in this case (really). Further, you can (as many have stated) choose "unaligned" and be done. If someone is "forcing" (your term) you to be otherwise, it is, again, a group/person issue, not a rules issue. For your response, see the bolded - you are not ignoring alignment - you are ignoring the rules (your words, not mine) - again, house-ruling.
Per the book:
They are cosmic forces
You choose IF you wish to align yourself with one of those forces.
You should create a personality and code for your character to play by - REGARDLESS of alignment (the pages after the alignment section)
Simple. No contention WHATSOEVER - unless you want there to be. From what I've seen, you (and a few others) continue to want there to be, even though there is (at this point) absolutely no need and no cause for it.
Through the ages, many would wonder "Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?"
I wonder "Does the art of discourse on the internet imitate the art of discourse in life or does the art of discourse in life imitate the art of discourse on the internet?"
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3 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2010 - 10:09AM
#690
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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Check the quoted post Max - you stated that they insist that there is no such cosmic force. PHB1 disavows that notion.
Their insistance is to a house-rule, in this case (really). Further, you can (as many have stated) choose "unaligned" and be done. If someone is "forcing" (your term) you to be otherwise, it is, again, a group/person issue, not a rules issue. For your response, see the bolded - you are not ignoring alignment - you are ignoring the rules (your words, not mine) - again, house-ruling.
The problem with putting down unaligned, is that unaligned is an actual alignment. It's simply the alignment of neutral. If I want to be an "unaligned" LG guy who is not actually aligned with LG, then I am running my head up against the unaligned alignment wall. In order for me to not have an alignment AND be able to play my character the way I wish, I have to play as if alignment does not exist in the game universe.
The PHB1 tells me I can play that way AND it tells me that alignments are a universal force. Either it's universal or it isn't. If it is, then I cannot play unaligned in any manner other than how they write it. If I can play an "unaligned" character as being "good" or "evil", then alignment is not actually universal and the PHB1 contradicts itself.
Per the book:
They are cosmic forces
You choose IF you wish to align yourself with one of those forces.
You should create a personality and code for your character to play by - REGARDLESS of alignment (the pages after the alignment section)
They took personality and made the moral aspects into alignment and the aspects that are not moral and kept it personality. They even go out of their way to say that alignment = moral personality traits. That means that I cannot create a personality without alignment unless I want a completely ammoral character.
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