|
3 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2010 - 4:21PM
#661
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
Not to mention insulting, controversial, and the worst kind of bad taste. If you find yourself having to stoop to this level to make a "point", perhaps that point isn't worth making in the first place. A game forum is hardly the place to bring up something of this nature, and I do hope the mods have the good sense to remove it.
Who is it insulting to? I in no way advocated it. If a person so sensitive to something that he takes offense where none is there to be taken, then he needs therapy for his problem. The answer is not to remove the non-offense.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2010 - 5:07PM
#662
|
Date Joined:
May 10, 2010
|
No the confusion comes because the descriptions given were utterly meaningless garbage. The descriptions given for Law and Chaos aren't even antonyms. You can be Lawful and Chaotic at the same time given those writeups. This is why people used their own morality, because the books told you nothing.
Let me give a real example. Duke Rowan Darkwood. Head of the Fated in Planescape. He assassinates rivals, and playwrites who insult him. He twists the laws to tax groups he dislike out of existance. And his overarching goal is to overthrow a cities Neutral ruler in a violent civil war because he thinks he can do better. In the Forgotton Realms he'd be hopeing to hit LN with that. In Ravenloft he's NE (which can actually be proven because that setting has REAL alignment rules). In Placescape he's printed consistantly as being CG.
Everyone agrees on what alignment means. But they always seem to write different things down when puch comes to shove. And when that group includes the people that wrote the system, I think that shows a weakness in the system.
Utterly meaningless garbage? Your opinion sure, but that's a matter of taste, not any kind of "objective fact" any more than I could say that any given cosmological setup is stupid trash.
Good = altruistic and putting the needs of others before yourself consistently. Evil = selfish and putting your needs above others all the time. Lawful (which I always rename "Ordered" in my campaigns) = Disciplined and upholding a law or code (either their own or the rule of the land, which they make their own), Chaos = Spontaneous and not beholden to any hard set of laws or codes. Those definitions have never changed, not once. Show me a line in any of the core books which indicates otherwise. People often misread Lawful/Chaotic because it's an unfamiliar concept and the wording on Lawful is misleading (it does not necessarily mean a character is beholden to Laws if those Laws conflict with their own sense of Order). Not sure how you think one can act Ordered and Chaotic at the same time... That's like saying Acting and Improv are the same thing.
Also, you're confusing the creators of the alignment system with the authors behind any given setting, which is not the same. When the authorship changes, that can mean that an entire character will change, as was the case with your example...
For Duke Rowan, in the material in which he was given the CG alignment, his description was quite CG and keeping with that definition. His alignment has changed, either because his character was expanded on and because the original CG alignment didn't really hold with those new embellishments, or because he actually changed as a character (I would vote probably a bit of both). The only person who is going to consistently know the alignment of a character is the creator of that character, as they're the only ones who are going to actually know the totality of the character's reasoning for what he does. What seems like a good act might actually be an evil one if it was done entirely out of the desire for an increase in personal power, even if it helps everyone else too. Creating a rebellion to overthrow a tyrant might seem like a chaotic act, but if the person leading it is doing it because he thinks that the tyrant's laws are unjust and conflicting with their sense of Order, than it's a Lawful one.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2010 - 5:14PM
#663
|
Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2008
|
Who is it insulting to? I in no way advocated it. If a person so sensitive to something that he takes offense where none is there to be taken, then he needs therapy for his problem. The answer is not to remove the non-offense.
The answer is to not bring things into discussions that have no place in them, especially something that could be seen as controversial as the past repression and racism of slavery. It's bad taste. It's low character. It's uncalled for. It has NO place in a game discussion forum. If you feel that you have to drop non-sequitor statements such as that to carry on a conversation, then perhaps it is you who needs therapy.
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2010 - 5:35PM
#664
|
Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2004
|
Though I do believe the subject of Slavery does come up in various campaigns. Within the Dark Sun setting durring 2nd Edition, it was a given that the enslavement of peoples was going on, a harsh reality among many.
I, like the other posters, do not understand why one would bring it up in relation to the current conversation, however, and I have to question why it was broached.
Terms you should know... Spoiler:
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
Show
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks.
* Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank.
* Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture.
* Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things.
* Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2010 - 6:10PM
#665
|
Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2006
|
Utterly meaningless garbage? Your opinion sure, but that's a matter of taste, not any kind of "objective fact" any more than I could say that any given cosmological setup is stupid trash.
Good = altruistic and putting the needs of others before yourself consistently. Evil = selfish and putting your needs above others all the time. Lawful (which I always rename "Ordered" in my campaigns) = Disciplined and upholding a law or code (either their own or the rule of the land, which they make their own), Chaos = Spontaneous and not beholden to any hard set of laws or codes. Those definitions have never changed, not once. Show me a line in any of the core books which indicates otherwise. People often misread Lawful/Chaotic because it's an unfamiliar concept and the wording on Lawful is misleading (it does not necessarily mean a character is beholden to Laws if those Laws conflict with their own sense of Order). Not sure how you think one can act Ordered and Chaotic at the same time... That's like saying Acting and Improv are the same thing.
An example? Let's try Third edition.
We are aware that especially if you've been playing this game for a long time, you personally probably have an understanding of what you think Law and Chaos are supposed to mean. You possibly even believe that the rest of your group thinks that Law and Chaos mean the same thing you do. But you're probably wrong. The nature of Law and Chaos is the source of more arguments among D&D players (veteran and novice alike) than any other facet of the game. More than attacks of opportunities, more than weapon sizing, more even than spell effect inheritance. And the reason is because the "definition" of Law and Chaos in the Player's Handbook is written so confusingly that the terms are not even mutually exclusive. Look it up, this is a written document, so it's perfectly acceptable for you to stop reading at this time, flip open the Player's Handbook, and start reading the alignment descriptions. The Tome of Fiends will still be here when you get back.
…
There you go! Now that we're all on the same page (page XX), the reason why you've gotten into so many arguments with people as to whether their character was Lawful or Chaotic is because absolutely every action that any character ever takes could logically be argued to be both. A character who is honorable, adaptable, trustworthy, flexible, reliable, and loves freedom is a basically stand-up fellow, and meets the check marks for being "ultimate Law" and "ultimate Chaos". There aren't any contradictory adjectives there. While Law and Chaos are supposed to be opposed forces, there's nothing antithetical about the descriptions in the book.
I'd comment more but I'm not sure if you're going for the "adherence to self" rules for law (which are bunk) or the "Laws of the Land" rules for law, which can work, but aren't part of any D&D setting.
Also, you're confusing the creators of the alignment system with the authors behind any given setting, which is not the same. When the authorship changes, that can mean that an entire character will change, as was the case with your example...
For Duke Rowan, in the material in which he was given the CG alignment, his description was quite CG and keeping with that definition.
The only thing that wasn't in his INITIAL writeup was the part about murdering playwrites. Everything else is in his original statblock.
If alignment is such an easy tool for people to use, why wasn't this caught in editing?
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2010 - 7:04PM
#666
|
Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2006
|
The fact is, Alignment is not what it was in the past, and is only a tool for some rather than an overcompassing cosmic sides.
This statement goes is in direct opposition to what 4ed claims alignment is.
how so? not 2 pages back you showed that according the alignment rules of 4E an unaligned person can do whatever they want, worship any God and not join the ""rah, rah club", so it seems that the alignment system is exactly what you want just pick "unaligned" and all your problems vanish.
In 4E alignment is a tool for those who want to use it, and ignorable for those who do not, seems like a great way of doing it to me.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2010 - 7:46PM
#667
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
The fact is, Alignment is not what it was in the past, and is only a tool for some rather than an overcompassing cosmic sides.
This statement goes is in direct opposition to what 4ed claims alignment is.
how so? not 2 pages back you showed that according the alignment rules of 4E an unaligned person can do whatever they want, worship any God and not join the ""rah, rah club", so it seems that the alignment system is exactly what you want just pick "unaligned" and all your problems vanish.
In 4E alignment is a tool for those who want to use it, and ignorable for those who do not, seems like a great way of doing it to me.
Since you ask. Below is from 4ed alignments.
Alignments are tied to universal forces bigger than deities or any other allegiances you might have.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2010 - 10:04PM
#668
|
Date Joined:
May 10, 2010
|
@ DaidojiTaidoru
That's not an example, that's a restatement of your original point with a quotation taken out of the core rulebooks. Order and Chaos as described in the book I would argue are inherently antithetical. One is motivated by a desire for things to be ordered and maintains a disciplined outlook on the world (statements like, "All things happen for a reason") while the other thrives on things being much more murcurial and has a very spontaneous outlook on the world (statements like, "God plays dice with the universe"). There's really no overlap between the two. Many (eastern especially) myths depend on those two forces opposing each other.
If you can think of an action that can be motivated by both a desire to keep order and make things stable as well as to promote disorder and upset stability, I'd love to hear it. Again it's not the action itself that is lawful or chaotic, it's the motivation behind it.
The only thing that wasn't in his INITIAL writeup was the part about murdering playwrites. Everything else is in his original statblock.
I have the book right in front of me and no it doesn't. Nothing in the description that introduced him in the Player's Guide is out of line for a CG character.
It isn't until the Faction War (which I also have) in which the character begins behaving outside of that initial description (and in quite a villainous fashion such that I would probably have given him a good hard Neutral Evil to Chaotic Evil).
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2010 - 11:44PM
#669
|
Date Joined:
Jan 28, 2007
|
@ Maxperson: Try this link, Appeal To Tradition, it applies to arguments that rest on, "That's the way it has always been." Because it has always been a part of D&D, and is a good tool for those players that need it, and for the DM.
Oh, well then we should bring slavery right back. I'm sure lots of slave owners thought slaves made good tools. I'm sorry, but "That's the way it has always been." is a losing argument.
You are way over the line, Max. This post isn't even an argument; it's just a shock statement without any true coherence and adds nothing. I think you can do better. 
It is a Reductio Ad Absurdum, though I wish Maxperson picked something less political to attach it to.
For a full argument either way, you must weigh the positives and negatives.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jun 09, 2010 - 4:03AM
#670
|
|
|
I looked up the definition of frequent and it says on a regular basis. What is not in any definition I saw of frequent, was population playing into it. 5 murders a day is in my opinion frequent. If I drank 5 sodas a day, I would be drinking soda frequently. It would be irrelevant that 100 million other people also drank soda. It would be irrelevant that 20 million drank more per day than I do.
All your data shows is that people die in car accidents MORE frequently than are murdered. that increase doesn't show that 5 murders a day is infrequent. The population of the U.S. and the number of States in the U.S. does not reduce those murders to infrequent. 5 per day is simply 5 per day and that is, in my opionion, frequent.
But the problem is that you are talking about people but your example of how you drink soda is irrelevant because you are not people.
People =/= Person
If we are talking about People then we can look at statistics to get a good idea of what People are doing.
And it turns out that "Good people will almost never murder"
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
Show
"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
|
|
|
