Community

Recently there has been much gnashing of teeth and scratching of claws in ##4e on IRC about interpretations of energy keyword inheritance rules.  I was personally hoping these to be settled by May errata, but alas, it was not to be.  These center around questions about when a keyword can be inherited due to new energy damage added to a power, in situations such as:

1) When a critical hit adds energy damage to a power.
2) When energy damage is added on top of a power by a feat, an item, a PP ability, or a buffing power.
3) When a post-attack Striker damage effect such as Sneak Attack or Warlock's Curse applies energy damage.

Which of these acts, if any, adds keywords to a power for use with feats such as Radiant Advantage and Winter's Touch?  It certainly has been a thorny debate, and I'd like to try to get a CO consensus here, using both our own logic and attempting to Divine answers from Custserv.  I'm going to post my own Custserv conversation which I had just after the March errata, and I encourage others to post their own and bring up any points they wish in the quest to better understand energy keyword relationships.

The relevant rules were first printed on pg 276 of the PHB and then updated on page 17 of this document www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdatesArchive...

I asked Custserv :

There's been some confusion lately about how keyword-replacement  elemental powers on Weapons interact with elemental damage riders from  various sources.

The least complicated example involves using a  Frozen Whetstone on a Radiant Weapon with Radiant damage activated.  A  Frozen Whetstone causes any successful attack with the weapon to deal an  "extra" 2 cold damage.  As discussed in the recent errata, a Radiant  Weapon causes "all damage dealt by the weapon" to be radiant damage.

Do  attacks with the Weapon deal the normal amount of radiant damage, and  an extra 2 cold damage (therefore having the radiant and cold keywords),  or do attacks deal the normal amount of radiant damage+2 (and have only  the radiant keyword)?  The question seems to depend on if the whetstone's damage is sourced by the weapon, or  specifically the whetstone.

In a related example, an Artificer  with the Battle Engineer Paragon Path (Ebberon Player's Guide pg 59)  uses the Utility 12 power Fleeting Dweomer on a Radiant Weapon held by  his Ranger friend, and chooses to apply extra fire damage.  Does the  Weapon deal Radiant damage with a Fire rider, or Radiant damage plus the  bonus damage, also converted to radiant?  Is the Artificer effectively  the source of the fire damage, only causing it to trigger whenever the  Radiant weapon hits? 

If a monster has a special ability with  negative consequences for damaging it (example: any creature that  damages the monster takes 3d6 damage), does the Artificer also take  damage when the Ranger shoots the monster, due to being the source of the fire damage?

Lastly,  if the same Artificer instead applied his Fire typed fleeting Dweomer  to a Flaming Weapon, and then the Flaming weapon was used to attack a  creature vulnerable to fire, would the creature take double  vulnerability damage due to the flaming weapon and fire rider being  separate pools of fire damage?

The crux of what all these come  down to, is do "extra damage" elemental riders count as separate pools  of damage with their own different sources, or does a damage rider get  folded into the attack it is used with and lose its original source  (possibly another creature)?

Thanks for helping out with these  rather tricky questions.

Troy replied, on March 4th:

1. Do attacks with the Weapon deal the normal amount of radiant  damage, and an extra 2 cold damage (therefore having the radiant and  cold keywords)...

A. Correct.

2. an Artificer with the  Battle Engineer Paragon Path (Ebberon Player's Guide pg 59) uses the  Utility 12 power Fleeting Dweomer on a Radiant Weapon held by his Ranger  friend, and chooses to apply extra fire damage?

A. Same as  above, it would do X radiant damage + the fleeting dweomer's int  modifier in the other kind of damage.

3. If a monster has a  special ability with negative consequences for damaging it (example: any  creature that damages the monster takes 3d6 damage), does the Artificer  also take damage when the Ranger shoots the monster, due to being the source of the fire damage?

A, The  source of the damage is who's dealing the damage, not the artificer.

4.  Lastly, if the same Artificer instead applied his Fire typed fleeting  Dweomer to a Flaming Weapon, and then the Flaming weapon was used to  attack a creature vulnerable to fire, would the creature take double  vulnerability damage due to the flaming weapon and fire rider being  separate pools of fire damage?

A. No in the end it's one source,  so they'll only take the vulnerability once.

Please let me know  if you need anymore help!

Please include the name of the agent and the date of reply when possible, as it may help us disentangle any contradictions our divining may produce.

Hmmm, from Dielzen's Q:

Kelly, May 6th

I apologize for the  confusion.  When you use the Orb of Harmonic Agony  with a power that  does blast or burst damage (but does not do thunder  damage or does not  have the thunder damage keyword) and you get a  critical hit, the  critical damage is added after the power's damage (it  is added on top of  the power's damage).  It does not add the thunder  damage type to the  keywords for the power and you would not be able to  retroactively  increase the size of the power's blast or burst.  So you  would not be  able to use Resounding Thunder to increase the size of the  blast or  burst when you do a critical hit with the Orb of Harmonic  Agony.

It does not add the thunder  damage type to the  keywords for the power

I wonder why not.  As you make the attack roll(s) for the power, are the keywords locked in somehow, preventing further changes?  There is nothing about this in the rules, but it would clarify things if there was.  Would this mean any effect that is applied as a result of a "when you hit" or a "when you make a successful attack" doesn't change keywords? (Crits, Sneak attack, Curse, Painful Oath, Frozen Whetstone).  Confusing the matter further, some of these effects (whetstones, Painful Oath) could concievably help with dealing half damage on a miss, and would presumably be dealing energy damage in these cases. (Does Painful Oath/Frozen Whetstone deal half damage on a Miss when used with a Miss: Half  Attack Power?)

Note that this would not exclude keywords with language such as "your attacks deal _ extra damage", as seen in Malec-Keth Janissary level 16 ability, Fleeting Dweomer of the Battle Engineer PP, and the post-errata Weapon of Summer.