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Switch to Forum Live View Arcane Smackdown!!! Don't piss her off
3 years ago  ::  May 11, 2010 - 9:07PM #21
yargon
Date Joined: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 767
@crazymanrb Awesome - thanks for this...

It doesn't seem to be very much damage for a level 16 striker character, granted that is in a 5x5 grid but still I would have expected more.

as for the calculation for critical damage wouldn't you add in the DPR of the attack and multiply this by your chance of obtaining a crit.
  • Normal: 20.775 DPR + (20.775*(1/20)) = 20.775 + 1.039 = 21.814 DPR
  • Raging: 25.455 DPR + (25.455*(2/20)) = 25.455 + 2.546 = 28.001 DPR

Are you adding in the staff of ruin bonus because i think that the 1d4 +26 damage for balzing Starfall is using the +4 Quickbeam Staff of Defence
I'll check when i get back to my CB...

Any one know how I can up my damage at all?
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3 years ago  ::  May 12, 2010 - 9:13AM #22
crazymanrb
Date Joined: May 8, 2010
Posts: 15

Those numbers are using just the Quickbeam Staff of Defense for the damage bonus you listed in your first post. Adding the +4 staff of Ruin should bump up the damage of a normal hit by 4 to a total 32.5, and a crit would be bumped 59.5 (while not raging). Raging values would change to 36 and 63.

[(32.5*(12/19)) + (59.5*(1/20))] + (23.501*(1/20)) = 24.676 DRP while not raging
[(36*(11/18)) + (63*(2/20))] + (28.3*(2/20)) = 31.13 DPR while raging


Now while that does seem kinda low for a single target attack, the beauty of this move and crit combination is that when more enemies are burst area your chances of getting continuation crits go up dramatically. I think if there were two enemies in the zone it would look something like this

[(2)(32.5*(12/19)) + (2)(59.5*(1/20))] + [(2)(47.002*(1/20))] = 51.702 DPR against two targets while not raging
[(2)(36*(11/18)) + (2)(63*(2/20))] + [(2)(56.6*(2/20))] = 67.92 DPR against two targets while raging


This indicates that the move gets more effective the more targets there are in the zone, three targets give 81.079 DPR and 110.37 DPR, divide those last two numbers by three and you get 27.026 and 36.79 respectively. These are both greater than the single target DPR 24.676 and 31.13 further indicating that the move gets more effective when used against more targets.

Blazing Starfall DPR chart
As you can see things get pretty wacky as the number of enemies in the burst goes up, 25 enemies would give you 1303.2 DPR while not raging and 2476.3 DPR while raging.

Also these calculations only include you re-cirtting once, since you can fire it off any number of times upon a crit your potential damage could stack much higher than these numbers

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3 years ago  ::  May 12, 2010 - 6:26PM #23
yargon
Date Joined: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 767
Thanks for that crazymanrb... I knew i should have paid more attention in maths..

Given that the thundering blazing starfall is now burst 2 which is a 5x5 grid, that could include some considerable damage...

Each target has a chance of adding yet more crit triggered thundering blazing starfalls, thus the DPR would  go up even more.  I take it the curve of the graph would curve steeper?

What other AOE DPR builds could I compare it with?

Anything else anyone can add?

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3 years ago  ::  May 12, 2010 - 7:51PM #24
keithio
Date Joined: Apr 13, 2008
Posts: 512

May 12, 2010 -- 6:26PM, yargon wrote:

Thanks for that crazymanrb... I knew i should have paid more attention in maths..

Given that the thundering blazing starfall is now burst 2 which is a 5x5 grid, that could include some considerable damage...

Each target has a chance of adding yet more crit triggered thundering blazing starfalls, thus the DPR would  go up even more.  I take it the curve of the graph would curve steeper?

What other AOE DPR builds could I compare it with?

Anything else anyone can add?


Anyone with good math sense can tell how quickly the build explodes at more targets.

To be a bit more precise, my guesstimate was that at 10 targets, since each target has a 10% chance to generate an attack, each attack generates on average 1 more attack.  However, eventually you will have a run of bad luck, and it will end.  Expected DPR should be some very very large number.

Then at 11 targets, each attack generates 1.1 attacks, so the expected value becomes infinite.

I wrote a program to test my hypothesis:

Spoiler: Show


#include
#include
#include

#define TRIALS 50000
#define DEFENSE 28
#define TO_HIT 23
#define HIT_DMG 30.0
#define CRIT_DMG 30.0
#define TARGETS 25
#define CRIT_RANGE 2

int d20(void);
int TwoD20_Drop_Lowest(void);

int main(void){
    int i, j, k, attacks, roll;
    double DPR;
    
    srand((unsigned)time(NULL));
    
    for(j=1;j<=TARGETS;j++){
        DPR=0;
        for(k=0;k            attacks=1;
            while(attacks>0){
                for(i=0;i                    roll=d20();
                    if(21-roll<=CRIT_RANGE){attacks++;DPR+=CRIT_DMG;}
                    if(21-roll>CRIT_RANGE&&roll+TO_HIT>=DEFENSE) DPR+=HIT_DMG;
                }
                attacks--;
            }
        }
        printf("Targets - %d, DPR - %lf\n", j, DPR/TRIALS);
    }

    while(1);
    
    return(0);
}

int d20(void){
    return(rand()%20+1);
}

int TwoD20_Drop_Lowest(void){
    int i=d20(),j=d20();
    if(i>j) return(i);
    else    return(j);
}


The program simulates your attack by rolling virtual dice many times (50000 at the moment) and spits out the average result.

For the output to accurately model your sorc, I would need a few variables.

1) HIT_DMG - Your average damage to a single target on a single hit (I input this as 30)
2) CRIT_DMG - Your average damage to a single target on a single crit (I input this as 60)
3) TO_HIT - Your bonus to hit (I input this as 23)

Here is the output with those numbers:

Targets - 1, DPR - 26.465400
Targets - 2, DPR - 59.989800
Targets - 3, DPR - 102.345000
Targets - 4, DPR - 160.113600
Targets - 5, DPR - 240.427200
Targets - 6, DPR - 359.103600
Targets - 7, DPR - 557.165400
Targets - 8, DPR - 948.451800
Targets - 9, DPR - 2163.465600
Targets - 10, DPR - 996188.122800

The margin of error with 1-9 targets is quite small.  The value for number 10 however is very unpredictable and to obtain an accurate result you'd really have to compute it rather than simulate it.

The program takes a very, very long time to compute #10, and forever to compute #11.  This is because #11 is infinite.  If you watch the number of attacks it has remaining to evaluate with 11 targets the number just goes up and up and up.

Of course, real targets would eventually die.  I simply assumed them all to have infinite HP.  It would not be difficult to make a more realistic model which takes the HP of each target into consideration, but I don't see the point.

edit - Someone tell me how to stop the forums from eating parts of my code.

D&D 4e Party Roles For Dummies:

Striker    - Smack the enemy
Defender   - Get smacked by the enemy
Leader     - Make it impossible for your party to lose
Controller - Make it impossible for the enemy to win
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3 years ago  ::  May 12, 2010 - 8:06PM #25
yargon
Date Joined: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 767
Thank you keithio, you have proven mathmaticaly just what I thought... interesting to see that although the build doesn't do much in the way of actual single target DPR, the over all effect is impressive.

Now with this as my main attack routine, coupled with the white lotus master riposte, i think it would function more than sufficient as a pure AOE striker.

Thank you all

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3 years ago  ::  May 12, 2010 - 9:50PM #26
Jack of All Trades
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2005
Posts: 841

This really cool at-will combination pretty much frees up all of your powers to focus solely on single target dpr.

Can you break down where the +26 damage comes from? 

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3 years ago  ::  May 13, 2010 - 12:40AM #27
yargon
Date Joined: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 767

May 12, 2010 -- 9:50PM, Jack of All Trades wrote:


This really cool at-will combination pretty much frees up all of your powers to focus solely on single target dpr.

Can you break down where the +26 damage comes from? 



According to the CB the 24 damage is broken up in to:

  • +6 Charisma bonus
  • +4 Enhancement
  • +7 Sorcerous Power (Str)
  • +2 Feat bonus - Weapon Focus(Staff)
  • +1 Bonus - Siberys Shard of the Mage
  • +4 Superior Impliment bonus - Quickbeam staff

I also get +2 for damage against Bloodied targets.

The 26 i think was that I was including the bonus for a thundering weapon from the Quickbeam staff, but it looks like thats been included ( i think it should be +3, and not +4) so the CB could be wrong...

Don't forget with White Lotus Master Reposte I get to add my CHA to the damage again, hit or miss, as well as fireing off another Thundering Blazing Starfall.

As to using single target powers, I've not done much looking in to the other powers really, I did look at any close burst and blast powers thunder powers just to get the resounding thunder feat to kick in more and to maximise my chances of gettign crits by hitting as many targets as i could.

If you have any suggestions I'm listening.
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3 years ago  ::  May 13, 2010 - 3:43AM #28
langeweile
Date Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Posts: 1,550
Yey for math and the first Monte Carlo I see on the forums.
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3 years ago  ::  May 14, 2010 - 3:06PM #29
yargon
Date Joined: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 767
OK now I'm looking out for a good Epic destiny for Megan, and perhaps a better load out of equipment and powers to take her to 30th...

cheers
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3 years ago  ::  May 25, 2010 - 6:21PM #30
yargon
Date Joined: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 767
Still looking at what epic destiny to take, as i'm now gettign closer
thinking about these:
  1. Storm Sovereign
  2. Darklord
  3. Mythic Spirit
  4. Fury of the Wild

What do people think, which are both in theme and also most optimal for the build?
Do you have any other suggestions?

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