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3 years ago ::
May 09, 2010 - 6:40AM
#101
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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That's exactly my point. The power says nothing about "as if it were being done by a Cleric power". The power IS healing as a cleric power. It IS NOT spending a healing surge as a cleric power.
Right. It's a healing cleric power that heals you as if you were spending a healing surge. If I had a feat that let me roll a saving throw every time I spent a surge, I would expect to get a saving throw if I used a power that told me to act as if I had spent one.
You wouldn't get one though, because it only triggers when one is spent.
In one of my original posts I asked if those who thought the as if applied if they should get the extra hp from Angelic Witness if they got hit with a CLW while adjacent to it. It's a similar situation. "When an ally adjacent to the angel spends a healing surge, he or she regains 4 extra hit points."
According to you and Fitz, you should because it's "as if" you spent one even though you didn't and the power's requirements are that you spent one.
The new rules trigger Healer's Lore when a power lets the target spend a healing surge. Ones that let you regain hp as if you spent a healing surge do not allow you to spend one and as such do not trigger healer's lore.
PHB 1
"Some powers (either your own or those of another character) allow you to heal as if you had spent a healing surge. When you receive such healing, you don’t actually spend a healing surge."
A nice sidebar clarification that spells out you don't spend a surge. So what that means is anything that triggers off spending a surge would not happen because you aren't spending a surge.
PHB 1
"When you spend a healing surge, you regain one-quarter of your maximum hit points (rounded down). This number is called your healing surge value. You use it often, so note it on your character sheet."
So the general rule is: you spend a healing surge, you regain 1/4 of your hp. So something like CLW that says you regain hp as if you spent a healing surge means that you regain your surge value, nothing more, nothing less without a specific rule to override it. The old Healer's Lore text supported gaining the extra hp because it only required that the power be a Healing keyword power. The new Healer's Lore text only says it happens when a cleric healing power lets the target spend a healing surge, which CLW does not. So Healer's Lore does not supercede the general rule.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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3 years ago ::
May 09, 2010 - 6:55AM
#102
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Compendium referencing for clarity, first. Cure Light Wounds:
Daily Divine, Healing
Standard Action Melee touch Target: You or one creature Effect: The target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge.
The trigger for Healer's Lore:
When you let a creature spend a healing surge to regain hit points with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword
RAW: Healer's Lore is not triggered by Cure Light Wounds, because the targetted creature did not spend a healing surge.
However the RAW does not support that current interpretation fully as it does not specify an exception to "as if" spending of healing surges. The raw must specify that healer's lore does not function with surgeless healing to actually accomplish that goal.
Most of your examples are straightforward, and there is no issue with the interpretation of how the 'as if' wording operates; they are effects that you are triggering on yourself, directly.
But there is also no actual issue with the wording of Cure Light Wounds (and the other 'as if' surgeless cleric powers). The ability is still used, the target still gains a surge's worth of healing, and this healing also triggers any personal surge-boosting from feats/items/etc. that the target has. This is why the ability has the "as if" wording, rather than "the target gains HP equal to its surge value".
However, the target does not spend a surge, so Healer's Lore is not triggered.
-Phaze
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3 years ago ::
May 09, 2010 - 11:37AM
#103
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2005
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Then with your logic, if I have implement expertise for the orb Orb (see below), and if I use a longsword as if it were an orb (correlon's Implement feature phb 171), I wouldn't gain the +1/+2/+3 bonus to my attack rolls. This type of logic is absurd.
Quoted from the Update Document for the PHB 2.
"Benefit: Choose a type of implement. You gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls with any implement power you use through that type of implement. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level."
Any time I use the longsword as an orb, be it holding or attacking with it, it will benefit from any specific game element that an orb would benefit from. Meaning I also would be able to use the wizard orb of imposition class feature while using the longsword as an orb.
Actually, the longsword only acts as if it were an orb when you are casting spells, so you'd (generally) have to be attacking with it (and get any feat bonuses to orbs then), but if just holding it you would not get any feat bonuses for orbs just for holding the orb.
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3 years ago ::
May 09, 2010 - 1:26PM
#104
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Date Joined:
Apr 24, 2002
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Actually, the longsword only acts as if it were an orb when you are casting spells, so you'd (generally) have to be attacking with it (and get any feat bonuses to orbs then), but if just holding it you would not get any feat bonuses for orbs just for holding the orb.
Aye, but that doesn't change the fact that its a longsword being used as an orb/staff/wand for the spell. Which according to the logic of some of the posters here, since an orb wasn't actually used in the casting of the spell, rather a substitute, then one should not benefit from orb/wand/staff-related bonuses or class features. Which is exactly the same manner they are saying that healer's lore works, which simply isn't the case.
Oh, and for the record, I seem to recall that a guy posted somewhere that he actually plays or knows gregB. And that he (gregB) was considering to update the wording again. If this matter really were clear-cut and dry like everyone proclaims it to be, why would he be considering that, or why does this discussion exist? Because some people realize that the wording isn't explicit enough to bar healer's lore from surgeless healing completely.
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3 years ago ::
May 09, 2010 - 2:16PM
#105
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Actually, the longsword only acts as if it were an orb when you are casting spells, so you'd (generally) have to be attacking with it (and get any feat bonuses to orbs then), but if just holding it you would not get any feat bonuses for orbs just for holding the orb.
Aye, but that doesn't change the fact that its a longsword being used as an orb/staff/wand for the spell. Which according to the logic of some of the posters here, since an orb wasn't actually used in the casting of the spell, rather a substitute, then one should not benefit from orb/wand/staff-related bonuses or class features. Which is exactly the same manner they are saying that healer's lore works, which simply isn't the case.
Oh, and for the record, I seem to recall that a guy posted somewhere that he actually plays or knows gregB. And that he (gregB) was considering to update the wording again. If this matter really were clear-cut and dry like everyone proclaims it to be, why would he be considering that, or why does this discussion exist? Because some people realize that the wording isn't explicit enough to bar healer's lore from surgeless healing completely.
I don't think anyone is saying the current wording is definitive and clear-cut, they're saying that the interpretation provided by GregB is the one they're listening to (rather than hashing it out amongst ourselves).
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3 years ago ::
May 09, 2010 - 2:50PM
#106
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2003
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Its' pretty cereal and explicit to me.
"As if" means "as if." Healer's Lore applies to CLW as written.
But... Healer's Lore does not look like it is supposed to work with surgeless healing, so the correct interpretation to use (not really RAW) is that Healer's Lore does not apply to CLW.
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3 years ago ::
May 09, 2010 - 4:07PM
#107
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Aye, but that doesn't change the fact that its a longsword being used as an orb/staff/wand for the spell. Which according to the logic of some of the posters here, since an orb wasn't actually used in the casting of the spell, rather a substitute, then one should not benefit from orb/wand/staff-related bonuses or class features. Which is exactly the same manner they are saying that healer's lore works, which simply isn't the case.
Erm, no. The issue isn't that substitution doesn't work in situations like these. It's that the substitution occurring references a target spending a healing surge, which is a clearly defined act that doesn't involve healer's lore in any way. If you have a attack power whose hit line says "the target creature takes damage as if your ally had attacked it" you don't add in your own weapon focus to that damage calculation.
<Ioun> they're apparently making a MolIsCool pp
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3 years ago ::
May 09, 2010 - 6:03PM
#108
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Its' pretty cealr and explicit to me.
"As if" means "as if." Healer's Lore applies to CLW as written.
But... Heler's Lore does not look like it is supposed to work with surgless helaing, so the correct interpretation to use (not really RAW) is that Healer's Lore does not apply to CLW.
You're certainly entitled to your argument, however, those of us arguing that Healer's Lore does not apply to CLW are not at all arguing from an RAI perspective. In contrast, we are specifically saying RAW it does not apply and that the 'as if' is simply comparing itself to the healing surge value of the recipient with any bonsues they would normally have that increase their healing surge value, which does not include Healer's Lore because of how it is worded.
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3 years ago ::
May 09, 2010 - 7:09PM
#109
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2003
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Its' pretty cealr and explicit to me.
"As if" means "as if." Healer's Lore applies to CLW as written.
But... Heler's Lore does not look like it is supposed to work with surgless helaing, so the correct interpretation to use (not really RAW) is that Healer's Lore does not apply to CLW.
You're certainly entitled to your argument, however, those of us arguing that Healer's Lore does not apply to CLW are not at all arguing from an RAI perspective. In contrast, we are specifically saying RAW it does not apply and that the 'as if' is simply comparing itself to the healing surge value of the recipient with any bonsues they would normally have that increase their healing surge value, which does not include Healer's Lore because of how it is worded.
RAW can be read either way. "As if" means "as if" is the stronger argument, but still, either way is RAW. That leaves one to fall back upon RAI to see how one should rule.
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3 years ago ::
May 09, 2010 - 7:09PM
#110
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2003
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Its' pretty cealr and explicit to me.
"As if" means "as if." Healer's Lore applies to CLW as written.
But... Heler's Lore does not look like it is supposed to work with surgless helaing, so the correct interpretation to use (not really RAW) is that Healer's Lore does not apply to CLW.
You're certainly entitled to your argument, however, those of us arguing that Healer's Lore does not apply to CLW are not at all arguing from an RAI perspective. In contrast, we are specifically saying RAW it does not apply and that the 'as if' is simply comparing itself to the healing surge value of the recipient with any bonsues they would normally have that increase their healing surge value, which does not include Healer's Lore because of how it is worded.
RAW can be read either way. "As if" means "as if" is the stronger argument, but still, either way is RAW. That leaves one to fall back upon RAI to see how one should rule.
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