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3 years ago ::
May 03, 2010 - 9:57PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2008
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To those following the progress of this thread, I'm not letting it die. I'm in the midst of a hectic stretch at work, and will be chipping away at this slowly between now and Thursday. I'm off Friday & Saturday, so there should be a lot more going on this weekend.
Thanks for your patience.
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3 years ago ::
May 03, 2010 - 10:25PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jul 30, 2008
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Please delete your title and repost it as "Playing D&D - (Striker) Tactics 101" !  So much good info that soo many people neglect... And while I never was fond about Avengers, Pursuit or any other, these examples alone made me respect them quite some more.  I'd just disagree one thing. Under the assumption that Soldiers and Brutes are about equally dangerous in their offense, I think Avengers are much better to go after Soldiers before Brutes, because... 1) The high Soldier Defenses make not that much of a difference for you, particularly in comparison to your allies. 2) You already mentioned higher crit frequency. Soldiers suffer more there, because they have less base HP and also you relatively crit more often (say 20% of all hits instead of 15% of all hits on Brutes). 3) Because Soldiers have better defenses, they are harder to control by imposing conditions and thus should be killed before Brutes.
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3 years ago ::
May 04, 2010 - 4:29AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2008
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Please delete your title and repost it as "Playing D&D - (Striker) Tactics 101" ! So much good info that soo many people neglect...
And while I never was fond about Avengers, Pursuit or any other, these examples alone made me respect them quite some more. 
I'd just disagree one thing. Under the assumption that Soldiers and Brutes are about equally dangerous in their offense, I think Avengers are much better to go after Soldiers before Brutes, because... 1) The high Soldier Defenses make not that much of a difference for you, particularly in comparison to your allies. 2) You already mentioned higher crit frequency. Soldiers suffer more there, because they have less base HP and also you relatively crit more often (say 20% of all hits instead of 15% of all hits on Brutes). 3) Because Soldiers have better defenses, they are harder to control by imposing conditions and thus should be killed before Brutes.
Those are all valid points, and things that I've considered during my time playing.
Ultimately, one of the things I realized about Soldiers was that their threat level is extreeeeemely low the vast majority of the time. They tend to simply be annoying, and they're really not going to burst anything down, because their damage per hit is usually something like, 1d8+6, without big crits, encounter powers, or recharges. Brutes, on the other hand, pose a huge problem if the dice are toasty.
The rare exceptions are out there, of course-- the Battle Wight Commander I referred to being a prime example. This guy deals small damage, but he immobilizes, weakens, *and* rips a surge-- on his basic attack. When effects like that show up, things change fast.
I may ammend this over time, but this is actually where I started out at a point where I shared your view on the matter, and slowly went the other direction, landing where I'm at now.
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3 years ago ::
May 04, 2010 - 4:44AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jul 30, 2008
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Fair point. Maybe I'm just an old, evil DM and always skip over those mobs when building encounters. My Soliders might not always deal big damage, but if they're on you, you'll hate them. If not for the constant damage, that waits to be exploited, than for being grabed and pulled, slowed and prone. And for me including just that one Lurker with the high recharge, big damage power, who hides until he can finish off that squishy as the most inopportune moment.
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3 years ago ::
May 04, 2010 - 8:33AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Sep 27, 2009
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To those following the progress of this thread, I'm not letting it die. I'm in the midst of a hectic stretch at work, and will be chipping away at this slowly between now and Thursday. I'm off Friday & Saturday, so there should be a lot more going on this weekend.
Thanks for your patience.
I look forward to the next update. I play Defenders or variations thereof almost exclusively, but when the day arrives I'm granted the role of Striker, I will be playing a Pursuit Avenger. I love everything about the role and play style.
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3 years ago ::
May 05, 2010 - 8:16PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2007
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I'd just disagree one thing. Under the assumption that Soldiers and Brutes are about equally dangerous in their offense, I think Avengers are much better to go after Soldiers before Brutes, because... 1) The high Soldier Defenses make not that much of a difference for you, particularly in comparison to your allies. 2) You already mentioned higher crit frequency. Soldiers suffer more there, because they have less base HP and also you relatively crit more often (say 20% of all hits instead of 15% of all hits on Brutes). 3) Because Soldiers have better defenses, they are harder to control by imposing conditions and thus should be killed before Brutes.
OK a rejoinder to your first two points.
First, in general your expected damage output WILL be going down versus soldiers due to more misses. For critvenger builds these aren't really a problem because these additional misses came from your non-crits (note to ardent champs: you have to hit for your doubles to crit, so this doesn't apply to you like it does the 19-20 crit range builds). For everyone else, it's roughly a % reduction in average damage for the same reason that the Expertise feats are a boost. Soldiers compensate for higher defenses with lower hit points and damage output than brutes; Avengers usually do benefit a bit from this tradeoff compared to other classes, as you point out.
But the second issue is to me fatal. All things being equal, a good striker should be focus-firing. So while you might be only slightly reduced in your damage output, your pals now have a dilemma. If they assist you on your target, the group will take longer to take down the Soldier than the Brute because they're missing more (giving the Brute more turns to use his burstier attacks). If they do not, then both monsters stay up longer because you're spreading out damage (the soldier is tanking you!), and also because you're less likely to get bonuses from ally powers and flanking. Brutes and soldiers are usually both on the front line, so you're as likely to be well-situated to fight one as the other.
Obviously, this doesn't matter if you're off-tanking, or in cases where a particular soldier is more dangerous than a particular brute in a particular encounter. Those are situational. The general rule should be to get the kill count up, because "dead is the best status effect" and "teamwork is the best DPR buff". Avengers who take their targets off for solo killing obviously excepted.
I do agree with point number three, as long as that soldier is doing something more than dishing out a little damage every round.
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3 years ago ::
May 06, 2010 - 12:15AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2009
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I'd just like to say THANK YOU! The guide (so far) is awesome! Great read, as some have said, for even those not planning to play a pursuit avenger! I'm in the midst of trying to decide what to roll for my current campaign, and this single handedly made me decided on a pursuit avenger! Can't wait to see it finished off!
Thanks again :D
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3 years ago ::
May 06, 2010 - 12:35AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2008
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Thanks!
I'm glad people are enjoying what's up there so far, and I'm looking forward to being off Friday and Saturday to work some more on it. I think I should be able to finish the initial draft of the content by next Friday around lunch time.
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3 years ago ::
May 06, 2010 - 12:36AM
#39
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I'm definitely copying your layout for my healic handbook. So you know that :P
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός
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3 years ago ::
May 06, 2010 - 6:42AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2010
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Great Guide. I'm currently playing a pursuit avenger, and it looks like I've still got a lot left to optimize on it.
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