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Quick question on using Overwhelming Strike as your MBA.  On a number pad if I'm at 2 and my enemy is at 5, if he tries to shift to 9 and I use Battle Awareness to OA him, then shift into 6 and pull him into 2, does he lose his shift action entirely, or does he get to shift somewhere else now?  What if he'd been trying to shift into 4 and I had pulled him down to 2?

Thx, and love the thread Auspex.  Turned me from a "hmmm, looks like a neat class" to "zomggottaplayonegottaplayone" player.

Sep 20, 2010 -- 12:54AM, LagomorpPrime wrote:

Quick question on using Overwhelming Strike as your MBA.  On a number pad if I'm at 2 and my enemy is at 5, if he tries to shift to 9 and I use Battle Awareness to OA him, then shift into 6 and pull him into 2, does he lose his shift action entirely, or does he get to shift somewhere else now?  What if he'd been trying to shift into 4 and I had pulled him down to 2?

Thx, and love the thread Auspex.  Turned me from a "hmmm, looks like a neat class" to "zomggottaplayonegottaplayone" player.

Since the shift action does not require you to stipulate a designation square the target can still use his shift as far as I'm aware.

However, if Battle Awareness is triggered because of an attack on an ally this trick can be used to slide the target so that the target of his/her/its attack is now out of reach, thereby invalidating the attack!

IgFa is correct, of course

Also, thank you very much for the kind words!

Sep 20, 2010 -- 1:10AM, Ignis_Fatuus wrote:

Sep 20, 2010 -- 12:54AM, LagomorpPrime wrote:

Quick question on using Overwhelming Strike as your MBA.  On a number pad if I'm at 2 and my enemy is at 5, if he tries to shift to 9 and I use Battle Awareness to OA him, then shift into 6 and pull him into 2, does he lose his shift action entirely, or does he get to shift somewhere else now?  What if he'd been trying to shift into 4 and I had pulled him down to 2?

Thx, and love the thread Auspex.  Turned me from a "hmmm, looks like a neat class" to "zomggottaplayonegottaplayone" player.

Since the shift action does not require you to stipulate a designation square the target can still use his shift as far as I'm aware.

However, if Battle Awareness is triggered because of an attack on an ally this trick can be used to slide the target so that the target of his/her/its attack is now out of reach, thereby invalidating the attack!

the enemy does not loose his action right ?
it is merely 'need to be redone' as if it never occurred in the first place.

he could shift and then re-attack, if he had a move and a standard action left. 

?

Sep 20, 2010 -- 11:19AM, Master_Madred wrote:

the enemy does not loose his action right ?

Actually, he does. Unlike the shift action, the attack action has you designate a target. The interrupt interjects itself between this chosing of the target and the actual attack roll so that it makes the rest of the attack impossible. But, since the attack was already initiated it is lost. This means both the power and the action are used. When used cleverly, interrupts can be very powerful!

Similarly, it's possible for you to invalidate a shift, but you need a lot of help from terrain/other creatures.  Using the number keypad again, imagine you are at 2, the enemy is at 5, and squares 3,4,5, and 6 are all difficult terrain.  Also, all squares "down" from the keypad are blocked.  Now, if the enemy tries to shift back, you can hit him, shift to 1, slide him to 2, and now he cannot shift unless he can ignore difficult terrain or was shifting more than 1 square.  In this case, he would simply lose his move action.

t~

Something that occured to me when meddling with my char for our next Delve...

A charging crit with RRoT can one-shot an Artillery / Lurker across all levels, and pulp any other non-Brute hard enough to die with the next hit.
--> A Gith Rrathmal can prep a crit and also makes a very good Avenger and gets access to the required Fullblade (or theoretically Executiner Axe) easily.
--> If you can gain some invisiblity TEONT you can use it to open the combat and give any mob within about 20sq a...
HEADSHOT !

Now there's the problem getting that invisibility on encounter basis:
-- Feytouched Armor is great, but requires Leather / Hide. *
-- Veil of the Moon is a U6, but sadly requires Sehaine. (Also requires a feat, but that does give a good benefit in our combo.)
-- Some MC swap, but might block an important slot. Assassin works well enough though, as you can also get some extra dmg from Shroud / a sweet Teleport, training in Stealth and access to my perma hide trick. (See Alpha's CO Mods thread.)
* Good for doing it on Barbs - they're better at charging, and the free MBA on crits makes up for the lack of RRoT. Sadly Giths don't make good Barbs.

Action sequence would by like this, given that you spotted your enemies as scout:
T -2: Become invis, move closer, Oath.
T -1: move closer, Trace Chance, RRoT.
--- You become visible again.* ---
T 0: Charge for a HEADSHOT !
* Depending on your DM's ruling that might or might not give you a surprise round. As long as you made your stealth checks I'd rule that it does - if not the mobs know that there's something out there, although you still can pull the combo and finish it on the first regular combat turn.
Oh... and you better have some good defenses prepared of the retaliation.

Thoughts ?

Sep 27, 2010 -- 4:37AM, langeweile wrote:

Something that occured to me when meddling with my char for our next Delve...

A charging crit with RRoT can one-shot an Artillery / Lurker across all levels, and pulp any other non-Brute hard enough to die with the next hit.
--> A Gith Rrathmal can prep a crit and also makes a very good Avenger and gets access to the required Fullblade (or theoretically Executiner Axe) easily.
--> If you can gain some invisiblity TEONT you can use it to open the combat and give any mob within about 20sq a...
HEADSHOT !

Nice idea! You could actually do all of this in one turn, every encounter:
- Minor: Oath (in epic as a free action due to Vengeful Declaration, leaving you a move for positioning)
- Minor: RROT
- Standard: Trace Chance
- Action point: Charge!
- Free: Symbol of Victory (every uneven encounter of the day)

If you don't want to spam Symbol of Victory every other encounter, you could also use Temporal Armor and one Symbol of Victory but you would be limited to 5 encounters (AP/SV/AP/TP/AP)...

True true. But I wanted to keep it free of APs and such - just using true encounter resources. And I don't expect any juicy target to be served on such a silver platter.
If done right and you get surprise, you could even bury another mob before it acts on T1 (or bury just any one Elite) using OS & FA & RS, thus without any external help, each encounter - which is pretty rad. It gets even easier by Epic when you can use a Greater Ring of Invisibility.
Oh... and I really like the image of a zealous Avenger charging out of nowhere to cut his target in half with a single blow.

But I also wager that a RRoT powered and twinked charge with a regular AP OS-charge as follow-up does about as much as Trace Chance & AP charge. A somewhat different build, but IMHO more flexible and less resource intensive all together - but you're much more of an expert there.

Anyway, some numbers on the TC & RRoT & OS-charge combo: (2 OS + 3 HC + 6 Vicious) * 12 + 3 * 6 HH + 10 OC + 12 RoG + 2 * 9 Wis + 6 item + 3 enh + 4 feat = 203 dmg
A level 30 Artillery has an expected value of 18 + 30 * 6 = 196 hp. Sweet !

Random thoughts:
-- If you can apply your Oath during the surprise round and have Relentless Stride, you get a free teleport attack. Everybody has a regular turn during surprise - surprised targets just don't get actions. Very vicious with above combo and Holy Blessing.
-- My estimates are, due the high number of MBAs / OS in the attacks, that during Paragon and probably even Epic you should first try to get some Bracers of Mighty Striking before upgrading to the on-tier Iron Armbands of Power. 8x 4 > 11x 2.

Sep 27, 2010 -- 6:24AM, langeweile wrote:

True true. But I wanted to keep it free of APs and such - just using true encounter resources. And I don't expect any juicy target to be served on such a silver platter.

At the very least the AP version provides a nice alternative when you aren't able to surprise the target (like in my party where we almost always talk a bit with our enemies or are surprised ourselves), you'll want the Symbol of Victory anyway!

If you go for the invisibility version you could combine Shadowflow Armor with Distracting flare (minor intensive though) or grab Astral Cloak in paragon.

Oh... and I really like the image of a zealous Avenger charging out of nowhere to cut his target in half with a single blow.

That is what mine does every round! I love Zealout's Veil: every charge is a Surprising Charge!!

But I also wager that a RRoT powered and twinked charge with a regular AP OS-charge as follow-up does about as much as Trace Chance & AP charge. A somewhat different build, but IMHO more flexible and less resource intensive all together - but you're much more of an expert there.

Regretably I never had the pleasure of using RRoT. Quick numbers on my Ardent Champion Gouge Charger if she would have it, gives a DPR of 206 (80 normal charge damage + 101 RRoT damage + 25 average real crit damage) so that is about comparable to what you had...

And yes this idea screams Holy blessing + Relentless Stride!

My only gripe with Rrathmal of Tempus is that for a build so focused on OA/Charges - loosing Power of Skill really sucks.

Sep 27, 2010 -- 7:29AM, Merchant_of_Shadows wrote:

My only gripe with Rrathmal of Tempus is that for a build so focused on OA/Charges - loosing Power of Skill really sucks.

That is a very good point (unless you are as lucky as Auspex, whose DM gave Tempus the Skill domain...)

*nod* I've been able to work with RRoT + Power of Skill for a bit now, though I have actually spent more table time with RRoT + Melee Training.

The TC + RRoT + Charge trick is nice, and potentially devastating.

Personally, I generally dust my first 2 targets in 2 turns each, anyway. BUT... not everyone does, and it is a very appealing 'Nova' of sorts. Interestingly, for a Githzerai... it may actually gain steam with a Rending Execution Axe. TC guarantees you the free action swing, which offsets the lost attack from using TC as your Standard action. The difference in cost would be... spending 1 more feat slot, and losing 1 point of static damage. In the end, though, the cost goes toward killing targets quickly, which is what it's all about.

Ehhh... hrm...

unarmored agility
melee training/Power of Skill (if your DM agrees to PoSkill from Tempus)
Weapon Prof (Exe)
Versatile Expertise
Weapon Focus
RRoT

no MC feat needed for Rrathmal, so it looks like you'd be good to go.

TC, RRoT, AP --> overwhelming strike, (free) overwhelming strike, (free) symbol of victory

pretty wicked.


Due to the nature of Symbol of Victory, you could replicate that sequence 3/3 encounters of an LFR workday-- you just use the Symbol once/day, since it's only there to cover the 1/3 enc where you don't have an AP without it.

Sep 27, 2010 -- 7:43AM, Ignis_Fatuus wrote:

Sep 27, 2010 -- 7:29AM, Merchant_of_Shadows wrote:

My only gripe with Rrathmal of Tempus is that for a build so focused on OA/Charges - loosing Power of Skill really sucks.

That is a very good point (unless you are as lucky as Auspex, whose DM gave Tempus the Skill domain...)

is it uncommon for DMs to do this?

The game I run and the game I play in allow any domain to Divine characters as long as it makes sense. (No life domain for the Raven Queen unless you have a REALLY good story)

We have not noticied any unbalancing problems with it.

It quite clearly says in Divine Power that you can worship more than one God, and get Domains from all of them...

Sep 28, 2010 -- 11:53PM, SadisticFishing wrote:

It quite clearly says in Divine Power that you can worship more than one God, and get Domains from all of them...

In this case you will probably have to explain to your DM what the binding factor between these gods is.

As I play in a homebrew world it was a matter of convincing my DM that the Skill Domain fit my character's goddess, which was easily done...

Well, if you can do that, you just have to add something from the purview of Sehanine (Moon and whatsoever) - then you can get a U6 Enc to make you invisilbe TEONT and pull that trick from surprise each encounter...

Being an Avenger means that (almost) by definition you worship the power of Skill. Melee Weapon Training itself, as well as all your class powers, are using your wisdom (skill, faith, or both) to attack with a ginormous weapon that you might barely be able to carry.

It's really easy to say that your church and another's shared a monastery, and that one bit was dedicated to Ioun, and so... Skill!

Sep 29, 2010 -- 12:54PM, SadisticFishing wrote:

Being an Avenger means that (almost) by definition you worship the power of Skill. Melee Weapon Training itself, as well as all your class powers, are using your wisdom (skill, faith, or both) to attack with a ginormous weapon that you might barely be able to carry.

It's really easy to say that your church and another's shared a monastery, and that one bit was dedicated to Ioun, and so... Skill!

Bingo.

The way I presented it was by explaining that most of the 'Warpriests' of Tempus were basically Fighters with very rudimentary Ritual Casting ability, with a few actual Battle Clerics sprinkled in, and a lot of attendant (non casting/no character class) priests. Those who take up the job of the Avenger are sent off to receive special training, and emphasize strength of will (Wisdom, and accessing divine might > physical might), and skill (Dex, discipline with their weapons of choice).

If only LFR worked that way...

Sep 29, 2010 -- 4:42PM, Dielzen wrote:

If only LFR worked that way...

LFR doesn't allow that? That actually surprises me. I would have thought that LFR would allow this, or the multi-deity option.

Nope, strictly by-the-book CB, one deity per character.

Sep 29, 2010 -- 4:53PM, RuinsFate wrote:

Nope, strictly by-the-book CB, one deity per character.

Well, using CB as a rules reference is never smart. Does anyone have an actual rules reference here?

EDIT: Also, your gold rated options are very hard to read. Maybe a darker shade?

Sep 29, 2010 -- 5:18PM, Grey_Warden wrote:

Well, using CB as a rules reference is never smart. Does anyone have an actual rules reference here?

I was being sardonic.

For the actual case: The LFR Character Creation Guide, ver 1.99, specifically, pg 3, 2nd column, bottom paragraph; "Characters that have a divine class or multiclass option must choose one (and only one) living deity for their character."

Bolded emphasis mine.

Sorry, hard to tell over the internet.

Well alright then, thanks for the reference.

You're welcome.

I know that material from third party publishers is generally frowned upon in CharOp land, but I recently bought some of the Buck-A-Batch pdf's from Creation's Edge Games and although many of these items are either broken, cornercase or unclearly written, I did come across one ring that I wanted to share with my fellow avengophiles both because of it's appropriate name and its actual usefulness for (pursuit) avengers:

Avenging Ring Show

If you like it, go and buy the pdf, it's only 1 dollar...

Nifty ring, but you need to be a revenant to use the last power...

Sep 30, 2010 -- 8:02AM, mellored wrote:

Nifty ring, but you need to be a revenant to use the last power...

And the fact that my avenger is a revenant is probably the reason why I missed that!

But yeah, that should've been an interrupt (or maybe a free or no action?)

Sep 30, 2010 -- 8:16AM, Ignis_Fatuus wrote:

Sep 30, 2010 -- 8:02AM, mellored wrote:

Nifty ring, but you need to be a revenant to use the last power...

And the fact that my avenger is a revenant is probably the reason why I missed that!

Mine too.  Though i'm having a real debate as to weather i still want to go with Horizon Walker as my PP (darkvision, extra move action with AP, Wis based encounter teleport, + Wis to death saves and surge value, not quite useless powers), or take a more strikery one and take the new +5 to death saves feat, or to take Horizon Walker AND the new feat to ensure i'll never need healing.

Decisions decisions....

Sep 30, 2010 -- 8:46AM, mellored wrote:

Sep 30, 2010 -- 8:16AM, Ignis_Fatuus wrote:

Sep 30, 2010 -- 8:02AM, mellored wrote:

Nifty ring, but you need to be a revenant to use the last power...

And the fact that my avenger is a revenant is probably the reason why I missed that!

Mine too.  Though i'm having a real debate as to weather i still want to go with Horizon Walker as my PP (darkvision, extra move with AP, Wis based encounter teleport, + Wis to death saves and surge value, not quite useless powers), or take a more strikery one and take the new +5 to death saves feat, or to take Horizon Walker AND the new feat to ensure i'm not down.

Decisions decisions....

Yeay, I saw your build! Can't say mine is as unkillable.  She started out as an eladrin but she was incompletely raised so I went for Revenant instead. By that time, however, my character's career was already decided for, so I didn't really have room for any of the cool avenger feats...

Regarding the Horizon Walker I'm going to say something that has no place on this board: I really dig its flavor, especially for a revenant (reminds me a bit of the Unsounded comic).

Disciple of Death is the feat, requires 13 wis (easy as pie for any avenger lol). It mentions the Raven Queen in the flavor text, but no requirement on worship.

I finally get to level up my elf pursuit avenger. Going to 12th level, so I'm looking at a feat. She's multiclassed as a fighter (Battle Awareness), and I've just noticed the Striking Resurgence feat, which lets you forgo the defense bonus when you take your second wind in order to take a MBA as a free action. And since I've got Power of Skill, that means MBA = Overwhelming Strike. So this feat would mean that taking my second wind would no longer mean sacrificing an attack.

The only thing is: my weakness is status effects. If I get stunned/dazed/immobilized/whatever, I'm generally stuck. I've got no resistances and no saving throw bonuses.

Oct 1, 2010 -- 4:29AM, pukunui wrote:

I finally get to level up my elf pursuit avenger. Going to 12th level, so I'm looking at a feat. She's multiclassed as a fighter (Battle Awareness), and I've just noticed the Striking Resurgence feat, which lets you forgo the defense bonus when you take your second wind in order to take a MBA as a free action. And since I've got Power of Skill, that means MBA = Overwhelming Strike. So this feat would mean that taking my second wind would no longer mean sacrificing an attack.

The only thing is: my weakness is status effects. If I get stunned/dazed/immobilized/whatever, I'm generally stuck. I've got no resistances and no saving throw bonuses.

That is indeed a nice feat, but if you want something to better deal with status effects you might wanna look at Superior Will from HotFL, it gives a scaling bonus to will and free saves against stunned and dazed. I'm also quite fond of my new Flowform Armor and my Boots of Free Movement...

Oct 1, 2010 -- 4:41AM, Ignis_Fatuus wrote:

That is indeed a nice feat, but if you want something to better deal with status effects you might wanna look at Superior Will from HotFL, it gives a scaling bonus to will and free saves against stunned and dazed. I'm also quite fond of my new Flowform Armor and my Boots of Free Movement...

That feat does sound nice. I haven't got access to the new Essentials stuff, though. I went with Acrobat Boots and Sylvan Cloth Armor when I made my character.

Oct 1, 2010 -- 4:51AM, pukunui wrote:

That feat does sound nice. I haven't got access to the new Essentials stuff, though.

It was sneak-previewed here.

Oct 1, 2010 -- 4:56AM, Ignis_Fatuus wrote:

Oct 1, 2010 -- 4:51AM, pukunui wrote:

That feat does sound nice. I haven't got access to the new Essentials stuff, though.

It was sneak-previewed here.

That's pretty nice. Something to think about. Too bad it's not in the CB yet (not that I've updated mine in a while anyway).

Oct 1, 2010 -- 5:04AM, pukunui wrote:

That's pretty nice. Something to think about. Too bad it's not in the CB yet (not that I've updated mine in a while anyway).

The CB didn't actually update last month anyway, and it remains to be seen when and if this month will see updates...

Hullo there. Couple things I'm curious about...

First, I have to express my utter bafflement that Defensive Advantage is not mentioned in this thread, or in the main Avenger wiki. I can certainly understand it not being right for every build, but considering how easy it is for Avengers to get CA, I'm just stunned that no one has even mentioned it. Seriously, I did a thread search 4 times, didn't get a hit. Am I missing something about it? It seems like a feat that should at least be getting discussed. Not a criticism...just baffled.

On that topic, I'm looking for ways to increase my defense. I have a level 11 Githzerai Storvakal build, who currently has a 27 AC base (28 w/Boots of the Fencing Master). It looks good, but it seems like the generic number for that level. I have Unarmored Agility, +3 armor, 19 Dex...is there any way (outside of Improved Armor of Faith, which I just don't feel is worth the feat right now) to up it further? And more importantly, is that a decent number for, essentially, a defender at that level?

I'd also suggest adding Deliverance of Faith to the level 6 utility powers...getting your surge value in temp hitpoints every encounter strikes me as way better than anything else available at that level.

Finally, I'd like to express my sincere thanks, from myself and on behalf of my playgroup, for the work you gentlemen have put into these build threads. They've been invaluable for us in both creating characters and playing the game. Your collective work has greatly added to the enjoyment we're currently getting out of D&D4e. So, you know, tip of the cap, and all.

Oct 10, 2010 -- 5:17AM, Bach_The_Fox wrote:

Hullo there. Couple things I'm curious about...

First, I have to express my utter bafflement that Defensive Advantage is not mentioned in this thread, or in the main Avenger wiki. I can certainly understand it not being right for every build, but considering how easy it is for Avengers to get CA, I'm just stunned that no one has even mentioned it. Seriously, I did a thread search 4 times, didn't get a hit. Am I missing something about it? It seems like a feat that should at least be getting discussed. Not a criticism...just baffled.

Very good point, especially given how nicely it combines with Deadly Draw...

On that topic, I'm looking for ways to increase my defense. I have a level 11 Githzerai Storvakal build, who currently has a 27 AC base (28 w/Boots of the Fencing Master). It looks good, but it seems like the generic number for that level. I have Unarmored Agility, +3 armor, 19 Dex...is there any way (outside of Improved Armor of Faith, which I just don't feel is worth the feat right now) to up it further? And more importantly, is that a decent number for, essentially, a defender at that level?

Let's see: a fighter of that level with plate proficiency has AC 30 while a melee ranger with hide proficiency has AC 25, you are currently somewhere in the middle. Most things available to you to increase your AC now will be conditional (Defensive Advantage, Invigorating Charge, Bloodthread Armor, Cloak of Displacement) or increase your AC by 1 (IAoF, Hafted Defense), in epic you'd have access to more powerful items like Ring of Teros or Shadow Band).

Oct 10, 2010 -- 5:17AM, Bach_The_Fox wrote:

First, I have to express my utter bafflement that Defensive Advantage is not mentioned in this thread, or in the main Avenger wiki.

I apparently just missed it.  I don't think I'll rate it highly, because it's easy enough to move your AC off the d20 already, and it's harder to guarentee you have CA for defensive purposes than offensive ones.  But I'll try and add it to the wiki anyway.

Defensive Advantage is kind of a weird one for me. I find that it's kind of hit or miss, and with the amount of great feats available to Avengers nowadays, I can't justify spending a feat slot on it.

Deliverance of Faith is a ridiculous thing for me to have missed, because I'm such a big fan of it, I often use backgrounds to gain Religion Class Skill/training for non-Divine characters so that they can grab it. Thanks for pointing out that I hadn't included it. It has been added.

Alright, first try at a character. This guy is one of two I'm considering for a 3 PC party starting at Paragon. Be gentle, I know he's not the most original idea.

Spoiler: Show

My goal with Theren is to fulfill both a Defender and Striker role. He's not quite there as a Defender -  primarily because I don't have Censure's Grip yet - but I think he is a strong Striker right out of the box.

DPR (according to this program)
- At-Will (Overwhelming Strike, w/CA): 35.22
- Encounter Nova (Angelic Alacrity, Fury's Advance, AP Chains of Censure w/CA): 109.96
- Daily Nova (Aspect of Might, AP Chains of Censure, Fury's Advance w/CA): 120.73

Defenses
- Begins each encounter with 23 temp hps (Deliverance of Faith)
- +1 AC and Reflex from Boots o' tha Fencin' Masta, active most of the time. AC:28, Fort: 20, Reflex 23, Wil 24
- Iron Mind possibly cancels one hit per encounter.
- Saves on AP

Approach Powers
- No OAs on Charge
- Angelic Alacrity, Distracting Flare, Wings of Vengence
- And if I get lucky, Fey Strike Dagger could teleport one unlucky critter within 10 squares into the middle of my group on the first turn.

Defender Powers (needs help)
- Punishment: Battle Awareness, Censure of Pursuit, Bond of Foresight
- Sticky: Chains of Censure, manuevering from Overwhelming Strike

I've focused on encounter utility powers, in an effort to keep from getting tapped out. In the Heroic game I'm currently GMing, I've noticed my players depends pretty heavily on their Dailies (Utility and Attack), and are generally scrambling to take an extended rest when they use them. Ideally, I would never use two of my dailies unless we were facing a solo or paticularly nasty elite (Bond of Foresight, maybe Temple of Shadow).

You may notice I went with Acrobatics over Athletics. Why? One word: Parkour. Flip over monsters, run up walls, and generally look awesome. Creatively using stunts satisfies the little Feng Shui nut in me. I almost didn't take Wings of Vengence, just so I wouldn't have that as a fall back. But there wasn't another level 10 Utility that I really liked (not trained in Endurance). Also: having wings is cool.

According to the 10 Rules of Party Optimization thread, Theren satisfies B1, B4, B5, B6, C7, and aspires to fulfill A1 and A3, though I'd let you gentlemen be the judge of that. I suppose I'm not a super nova-machine, but that thread's rules are a bit biased towards the even Avenger DPR.

Thoughts? Am I fulfilling my dual role well enough? I probably won't be the only defender in the party, but I'd like to be able to function as if I was. Outside of Censure's Grip, how can I increase my Defender side (defenses, stickyness, punishment) between here and 16? Or, if it turns out I need to be more of a striker, how could I ramp up my damage?

Oct 13, 2010 -- 8:52AM, Bach_The_Fox wrote:

Thoughts? Am I fulfilling my dual role well enough? I probably won't be the only defender in the party, but I'd like to be able to function as if I was. Outside of Censure's Grip, how can I increase my Defender side (defenses, stickyness, punishment) between here and 16? Or, if it turns out I need to be more of a striker, how could I ramp up my damage?

I think it looks decent, but Auspex knows about the defende site of things then I do

Some ideas to improve your defensiveness: take Warpriest as a Paragon Path, you lose access to Battle Awareness but you gain a lot defenderwise. You could also take Psychic Lock and a Githyanki Silver Weapon...

Heh, I was all WTF!?...until I read the 16F on Warpriest. That is awesome, but I don't know if it's worth the damage cut from Storvakal/Power Attack synergy AND Battle Awareness. Definitely worth thinking about though. Psychic Lock/GSW is probably not worth sacrificing the Jagged's crits, even if wielding a Githyanki weapon is interesting from an RP perspective.

Oct 13, 2010 -- 9:14AM, Bach_The_Fox wrote:

Heh, I was all WTF!?...until I read the 16F on Warpriest. That is awesome, but I don't know if it's worth the damage cut from Storvakal/Power Attack synergy AND Battle Awareness. Definitely worth thinking about though. Psychic Lock/GSW is probably not worth sacrificing the Jagged's crits, even if wielding a Githyanki weapon is interesting from an RP perspective.

Yeah that 16F almost makes you into a real defender. Battle Awareness could be substituted by some Strikebacks or a Backlash Tatttoo. Regarding the damage loss from the power attack penalty, one way to solve it would be by only taking minor action and immediate encounter powers so thay you can use Overwhelming Strike each turn, this will not only let you mark, but with Deadly Draw this will also get you combat advantage to compensate for power attack's penalty!

You could always opt for the Silver Weapon once you get to level 21 when you take Hand of Divine Guidance (which is always better than Jagged because of its mediocre crit damage).

I am considering taking Monastic Disciple on my avenger for fluff purposes and was wondering how to make the best use out of it.
CB summary Show

The feat allows me to use a ki focus or my melee weapon as an implement for avenger powers which is nice in its own right. The flurry of blows is decent  - while it does less damage compared to battle awareness, it is sure damage without the need to hit and it can be used on demand without waiting the enemy to trigger it.
Would the blurred strike ki focus allow me to use a 2 flurry of blows per encounter during my overwheling + fury advance rounds or it doesn't work like that?
What is everyone's oppinion on shrouding glood as a mean of enforcing a censure of pursuit bonus? Is it good is a concealment is easy to come by?

The more I think about it, the more I like Warpriest. It makes Censure's  Grip mostly superfulous, and ALL of its powers are useful. Losing the  Power Attack bonus from Storvakal is nothing in comparison...but losing  out on a skill really hurts my character concept. Is there any way to  get into Warpriest, and still maintain my current skills? Or some way to  swap/gain another skill that doesn't involve a feat?

@Merchant_Of_Shadows: I think  you could use it 2x encounter, but not more than once per  round (right  there in the Flurry of Blows power description). Shrouding  Gloom seems  pretty worthless...you need cover/concealment anyways to  make a Stealth  check normally. All its gaining you is action economy.

Oct 15, 2010 -- 8:39AM, Bach_The_Fox wrote:

The more I think about it, the more I like Warpriest. It makes Censure's  Grip mostly superfulous, and ALL of its powers are useful. Losing the  Power Attack bonus from Storvakal is nothing in comparison...but losing  out on a skill really hurts my character concept. Is there any way to  get into Warpriest, and still maintain my current skills? Or some way to  swap/gain another skill that doesn't involve a feat?

Background.

I'm already abusing that for Thievery, sadly (build is a page back). Acrobatics or Thievery are the odd ducks out atm...and I'd rather not loose either. Doubling up on Religion (or gaining Heal) is a bummer to get a Cleric Multiclass.

Oct 13, 2010 -- 12:16PM, Merchant_of_Shadows wrote:

I am considering taking Monastic Disciple on my avenger for fluff purposes and was wondering how to make the best use out of it.
The feat allows me to use a ki focus or my melee weapon as an implement for avenger powers which is nice in its own right. The flurry of blows is decent  - while it does less damage compared to battle awareness, it is sure damage without the need to hit and it can be used on demand without waiting the enemy to trigger it.
Would the blurred strike ki focus allow me to use a 2 flurry of blows per encounter during my overwheling + fury advance rounds or it doesn't work like that?

Blurred Strike wouldn't work because you can only use Flurry of Blows once per encounter.  Unlike a full monks, once you use it it's gone.  I'd use FOB as a way to maintain your Oath to slide adjacent foes away.

The best thing about Monastic Disciple with your charachter is it allows you to take Zuoken's centering, so you get a BIG hp boost by basing HP on wis, and a big mobility boost by basing athletics on wis.

Oct 15, 2010 -- 9:05AM, jtaylor wrote:

Blurred Strike wouldn't work because you can only use Flurry of Blows once per encounter.  Unlike a full monks, once you use it it's gone.  I'd use FOB as a way to maintain your Oath to slide adjacent foes away.

The best thing about Monastic Disciple with your charachter is it allows you to take Zuoken's centering, so you get a BIG hp boost by basing HP on wis, and a big mobility boost by basing athletics on wis.

Ooh, I'm wrong. But Zuoken's Centering is so right.

The more I look at it, the less I like Storvakal as a PP. It's mostly junk past the PA benefit. So I'm mostly looking at 3 PP's right now.

Warpriest gives me a full mark ability at level 16, has decent powers, could free up a feat (likely won't need Censure's Grip). Downside, I lose a skill and Battle Awareness.

Ardent Champion lets me retain Battle Awareness, and is the best damage PP I've seen for my build. However, it doesn't help with my defender side much, and lacks flavor.

Ghostwalker is another option that gives me a great defense boost in concealment, a good entrance feat, and access to Zuoken's Centering. Makes me far tougher and has great powers, but doesn't help with damage at all.

EDIT: More me wrongness. @Merchant of Shadows: Shrouding Gloom would let you use stealth with just concealment, not total concealment, so it's pretty good if your going heavy into stealth...and would work great if you're heading towards concealment-all-the-time Ghostwalker.

re: Defender secondary--

I think you'll be surprised how little effort you need to put into it. One of the most common complaints from new Avenger players is, "I never get my Pursuit bonus!" The obvious implication is that Censure of Pursuit is a very effective control feature.

Despite being 1/enc, Battle Awareness actually helps in this regard. Once the DM sees what happens when he gives you BA triggers, it becomes a very powerful disincentive for moving away from you. Censure's Grip, Power of Earth, elements that make your OAs more potent... these types of things simply serve to increase your ability to do something you're already good at.

As long as your playstyle puts you adjacent to your target, and you're using Overwhelming Strike to put yourself between your target and your allies, you're going to be pretty good at this.

Note-- one of the fun things about Storvakal is the Power Attack benefit means your OAs and Immediates hit extra hard, as well.

Hey Auspex7, mind going over my build?  It could use a second opinion, paticularly for the higher level power selection.  I've played very little epic to know the difference between theroetical and practical.

Oct 15, 2010 -- 7:32PM, mellored wrote:

Hey Auspex7, mind going over my build?  It could use a second opinion, paticularly for the higher level power selection.  I've played very little epic to know the difference between theroetical and practical.

sure thing, man. I'll check it out.

Bond of Foresight 5d

I've had this one for a bit now, and after about 10 modules (LFR), I'm training out of it.  I think I've gotten that extra hit twice, and never had it do nothing.  Odds are high that I'm unable to make an OA due to other enemy actions, or there's another target in range to hit.  If the creature was marked by me, this might have more use, but without a way to have it target me, it often falls flat.

I will say that, playing a Avenger|Swordmage (censure of retribution), the two classes synergize SOOOOOOO well. You can pull your AC to pretty ridiculous levels (though not wholey necessary). But I will say that although I rather dislike that Censure of Retribution only gives me extra damage upon being "hit", it still works great in conjunction with marking (and multi-targets are even better for getting triggers). Crazy teleporting is amazing too- I am so insanely mobile that it ruins traditional encounter setup and makes the slow, immobilize, and restrain condition pretty much not exist. With superior will and being Githzerai, even stun and daze are unlikely to effect me.

After playing both a censure of retribution and pursuit Avenger, I much prefer pursuit because I actually find it a bit easier to trigger, and it doesn't really punish you by triggering (my big quip about ret).

Oct 22, 2010 -- 4:58PM, Dielzen wrote:

Bond of Foresight 5d

I've had this one for a bit now, and after about 10 modules (LFR), I'm training out of it.  I think I've gotten that extra hit twice, and never had it do nothing.  Odds are high that I'm unable to make an OA due to other enemy actions, or there's another target in range to hit.  If the creature was marked by me, this might have more use, but without a way to have it target me, it often falls flat.

I have had a couple people tell me that they haven't gotten much value out of BoF, and I'm always surprised. For me, using it generally happens on T2. Since I typically single out an outlying frontliner as my first target, I basically get the OA trigger all the time. Now that I think of it... the only reason I've failed to get the OA trigger has been when I've caught a big crit on the attack itself, and buried the target.

With the trigger being, "When the target hits or misses you or shifts", I find it to be extremely consistent against any melee baddie. Simply put, they either attack you, or they provoke by moving away.

Oct 22, 2010 -- 6:16PM, Auspex7 wrote:

Oct 22, 2010 -- 4:58PM, Dielzen wrote:

Bond of Foresight 5d

I've had this one for a bit now, and after about 10 modules (LFR), I'm training out of it.  I think I've gotten that extra hit twice, and never had it do nothing.  Odds are high that I'm unable to make an OA due to other enemy actions, or there's another target in range to hit.  If the creature was marked by me, this might have more use, but without a way to have it target me, it often falls flat.

I have had a couple people tell me that they haven't gotten much value out of BoF, and I'm always surprised. For me, using it generally happens on T2. Since I typically single out an outlying frontliner as my first target, I basically get the OA trigger all the time. Now that I think of it... the only reason I've failed to get the OA trigger has been when I've caught a big crit on the attack itself, and buried the target.

With the trigger being, "When the target hits or misses you or shifts", I find it to be extremely consistent against any melee baddie. Simply put, they either attack you, or they provoke by moving away.

Generally I do an outlier as well, but the problem is I use my daily/AP stuff on T1, and tend to kill stuff on round 1 and I favor the big hit of AoMight -- Angelic Alacrity+AoMight+Fury's Advance+Horc racial -- if that doesn't kill on T1 (rare), a simple at-will on T2 does the job, unless it's a solo, in which case there are other targets in range.  I'm going to try Executioner's Cloak for a while and get back to you.

Sequence may be part of the difference, then.

For me, attacks-by-turn typically look like this:

1. charge 1st target.

between T1 & T2, I may catch a Strikebacks trigger.

2. Daily power of choice. Depending on which Daily I use, I either RRoT with it, or plan on using Fury's Advance after it. When I use Bond of Foresight, I typically throw FA in afterward.

between T2 & T3, Relentless Stride triggers, so I get a hit in, and start T3 adjacent to my 2nd target.

3. AP turn.

Because I use Bond of Foresight on T2, I basically get an extra attack/OA trigger every use. I am also often able to generate extra damage with Temple of Shadows. By starting adjacent on T2, I get to attack before I take my move action. So... Temple of Shadows --> Shift + Hide check.

Hi everyone,

I'm late to the party, but wanted to chime in with some quick questions/comments:

First of all, this is a great guide, for all the reasons others have mentioned.  I'd especially like to point out that this is the least-argumentative Char-Op thread I've read in quite a while, and possibly the least-biased towards specific strategies.

In other words, lots of genuine good advice is being shared, and not so much "omg abuse this cheeze, ur fine."  A delightful blend of reasonable optimization, interesting tactical discussions, and enjoyment of the game & RP aspects.  So, thank you everyone who's contributed! 



Anyway, I've got an avenger build I'd like to start in the next few months, but it's different enough from other builds that I thought I'd share.

First of all, I enjoy optimizing a few silly things, then finding ways to make use of my weird skill sets.  Secondly, I personally despise crit-fishing, and generally dislike cheeze.
Having said that, I've never played a Striker before, and have been salavating at playing an Avenger since PHB2 came out.


Objective 1: Flavor as an Assassin/avenger, dedicated to Erathis.  She upholds the ideals of justice, and woe to those who willingly break the law. 
Also: Do Not Run From The Police, It Won't End Well.

Objective 2: Perception, Insight, Stealth, and Thievery. 
Become the pinacle of investigative prowess.

Objective 3: OMG, so much teleportation.  Flavored as shadow walking most of the time.


Party Build: I know one other player wants to be a Genisi Swordmage, we'll have a Seeker, and probably a Warlord.  No idea about the 5th player.  From past experience with a L6 one-shot, I know that an Avenger + Swordmage team is... just plain evil.  If we focus-fire, it becomes "Attack avenger and get shanked, or chase swordmage and be eviscerated."
We'll probably have the weirdest front-line ever, but we should have the mobility to be ANYWHERE at any time. 

Blink: Eladrin Avenger/Assassin, Oathsworn, Demigod Show

On Teleporting: Show

Oct 24, 2010 -- 3:21PM, DragonsWrath wrote:

Granted, it still leaves me vulnerable to stun/daze, but it should still help enormously.

Superior Will (feat from Heroes of the Fallen Lands) can solve that one for you!

By the way, how do you MC both into assassin and warlock?




EDIT: I too seem to have been struck by the monster that eats the last letters of usernames....

Welcome to the thread :3
And I entirely agree- the Avenger community is awesome... and honestly factors into part of the reason I like them so much.

In regards to your build- I really like it, especially the flavor, and I can certainly see the fun of mixing it up with the swordmage for teleport madness. As a teleport based Avenger|Swordmage (which, tactically speaking, is by far the most fun I've ever had with any character), I can tell you now, you won't regret it :D

Some things I noticed in your build that you might want to consider: With Painful Oath, you likely won't need the Radiant enchantment, so it frees up that for something like Rending or Jagged (granted you're not a crit fisher, just stating 2 common choices), since the radiant damage bonus won't stack with IAoP either. It's not a huge deal in the end, honestly, as it does open up your arms slot, but it's something to look at.

You mention being vulnerable to Stun/daze, and I have a solution. I suggest getting Superior Will, which lets you make a save against stun and daze at the beginning of your turn, on top of giving you a 2/3/4 will increase (which most stuns and dazes target anyways). Throw the fort and reflex equivalents on top of this as well, and it should be quite nice defensively.
As far as the extra feats you are considering, in my experience, Deadly Draw is rarely utilized. I don't plan on getting Improved Armor of Faith at all, honestly... unless I somehow find I don't have any better options left. As it is, you also open up a lot of possibility for Radiant Mafia by being an Avenger... but as you'd like to avoid Cheese, I won't mention anything unless upon request. If you have the stats for it, getting Deadly Axe might be nice. Also, you should definitely pick up Hand of Divine Guidance at lvl 21. It gives you an enhanced crit range without any real prerequisites. It just assumes you are targetting your OoE (which you should be anyways).

Where you could use guidance is in power selection. I'll say that after geting lvl 13 and nabbing Crimson Stride... I am in love. With multiple teleport boosters (you can wear 2 rings of eladrin passage btw), you can basically take an enemy almost 10 squares away, teleport to them, whack them, and teleport back and throw him between you and your swordmage. All in one action. It's pretty friggin awesome, honestly. With all your teleporting, you may even want to pick up a ring of personal gravity. Its daily item power is pretty brutal.

Edit: Ignis is right about having 2 multi-classes. Long gone are the days of Windrise Ports, so that likely won't work. You'll probably either need a background that will allow Thievery and dump Assassin, or get rid of Warlock.... I'll assume it will likely be the former

Another crazy suggestion as a teleporter... stick to just using a 1h weapon and offhanding a Staff of the Traveler. Your damage will take a very slight dive (roughly 1-2 damage on At-Wills pre-21), but it turns all of your shifts into teleports. Crazy synergy with Overwhelming Strike (attack, and teleport up to 4 spaces away with 2 eladrin rings and mark of passage), plus it'll work alongside Aspect of Agility and other shift actions- which Avengers have plenty of. This takes away the need for Ethereal Sidestep, and could free up 3 feat slots because of that.

And the last letter monster has consumed me as well.

Thanks for the tips!

I should also mention that this idea started to congel after the WotC Avenger/Assassin article a few months ago.  Although most of the build options presented then were 'meh' the concept and flavor was made of Win.


Oh, I'm aware of superior will.  My Wizard (currently L20) should wind up with a Will in the high 50's.  He's Sage of the Ages, and does not want anyone messing with his head!  :P
I didn't bother adding it to my list, since I already knew about it and won't be forgetting about it.  Thanks for the reminder though. 

Staff of the Traveler is funny too, but I prefer my Urgrosh.
On the other hand, I didn't even think of two eladrin rings! 

I completly overlooked the Radiant keyword granted by Painful Oath.  Wow.  Way more awesome than I thought at first glance.  I'll have to look at another magic weapon then.  Hopefully something cheaper.  Frightful weapon?  Maybe just make my Primary weapon the teleport version?

I didn't even notice Windrise Ports had been changed!  I can see why, but it was kind of cool...  I've had this basic framework built for quite a while, and started fleshing out the idea when I realized how perfect the character would be for our next DM's setting.
Not sure what to do about the change though.  I'll probably have to drop the Assassin multiclass, or talk to my DM.  We're pretty open-ended, as long as nobody tries to break the game.  On that note, I'm kind of surprised Warlocks are the only ones with an at-will teleport, considdering all the other classes that use it.

I'm fine on powers, this guide has covered that pretty well.  I basically deleted the entire section because I didn't have any questions.




Two other things I've noticed, but nobody pointed out:

Scabbard of Sacred Might is a great item for a backup dagger: draw the item as a free action, and an encounter power to make it radiant damage.  It's level 10, but probably a great pick during late Paragon as a "sure, why not" item.

Dark Clover and Brightleaf items are both reagents with a Free Action consumable power. 
Dirt cheap late in the game, they grant the target vulnerable 5/10/15 to necrotic or radiant.
While using these constantly would be quite cheezy, I could see carrying around 3-4 of each at all times, for use during boss battles. 
Painful Oath would just be that more brutal. 

Note that while painfull oath adds radiant, it only does so 1 attack per turn.  So there's still use for a radiant weapon.

Oct 24, 2010 -- 5:13PM, mellored wrote:

Note that while painfull oath adds radiant, it only does so 1 attack per turn.  So there's still use for a radiant weapon.

This is especially important if you are spamming Fury's Advance or Soulforge Hammering or are an Ardent Champion...

I was recently looking through the previews for Essentials, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and something came to mind would the at-will power Dual Weapon Attack be better than Twin Strike for Dilettante Power poaching.  Basically it allows you to make an additional Melee Basic Attack with your off hand, if you hit with your main hand.  

I think this could be rather good, and might due even more damage than the Traditional twin strike build, since your getting to add an attribute to the damage roll?  This could be even more destructive if you through in the valenar weapon training feat. . . 

Nov 9, 2010 -- 4:13PM, Citadel97501 wrote:

I was recently looking through the previews for Essentials, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and something came to mind would the at-will power Dual Weapon Attack be better than Twin Strike for Dilettante Power poaching.  Basically it allows you to make an additional Melee Basic Attack with your off hand, if you hit with your main hand.  

I think this could be rather good, and might due even more damage than the Traditional twin strike build, since your getting to add an attribute to the damage roll?  This could be even more destructive if you through in the valenar weapon training feat. . . 

At the very least, it looks like it is worth exploring. I'd be curious to see someone build one out!

Also, any new thoughts on the half-elf now that they can get +wis? And the feat Cunning Stalker from HotFK seems perfect for avengers.. getting CA against enemies that noone is adjacent other than you.

Nov 9, 2010 -- 4:53PM, Roofshadow wrote:

Also, any new thoughts on the half-elf now that they can get +wis? And the feat Cunning Stalker from HotFK seems perfect for avengers.. getting CA against enemies that noone is adjacent other than you.

Half Elf is officially one of the best races for an Avenger (Twin Strike, possibly Dual Strike, Howling Strike, etc). Drow are also now fantastic-- Dex/Wis, and with Cloud of Darkness leading to fun with Censure of Pursuit fun.

Nov 9, 2010 -- 4:29PM, Auspex7 wrote:

Nov 9, 2010 -- 4:13PM, Citadel97501 wrote:

I was recently looking through the previews for Essentials, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and something came to mind would the at-will power Dual Weapon Attack be better than Twin Strike for Dilettante Power poaching.  Basically it allows you to make an additional Melee Basic Attack with your off hand, if you hit with your main hand.  

I think this could be rather good, and might due even more damage than the Traditional twin strike build, since your getting to add an attribute to the damage roll?  This could be even more destructive if you through in the valenar weapon training feat. . . 

At the very least, it looks like it is worth exploring. I'd be curious to see someone build one out!

Dual Weapon Attack is not a level 1 at-will (it is an at will gained at level 1 as part of a class feature), and should be incompatible with Dillettante.

I decided to accept the challenge from Auspex7, however to be honest I am not very good at this, so I am quite sure I missed some important tricks.  Please post any modifications that improve the build. . . 

Dual Weapon Attack Avenger
Name: Krod Mandoon (Watching on Netflix later )
Class: Avenger, Multi-Class Ranger
Class Feature: Oath of Retribution (My first attempt at this oath.)
Paragon Path: Adroit Explorer, (2 action points and additional encounter powers, yes please!)
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Strength: 11, Constitution: 19, Dexterity: 11, Intelligence: 18, Wisdom: 22, Charisma: 9

AC: 34, Fort: 31, Reflex: 32, Will: 33
HP: 147, Surges: 11, Surge Value: 36

FEATS (I know I ran out of heroic feat slots. . . )
Level 1: Power of Skill
Level 2: Martial Dilettante (Retrained at 10 to Versatile Master)
Level 4: Unarmored Agility
Level 6: Valenar Weapon Training
Level 8: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 10: Adept Dilettante
Level 11: Painful Oath
Level 12: Deadly Draw
Level 14: Power of Strength
Level 16: Improved Defenses
Level 18: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 20: Two-Weapon Defense
(I would take Two Weapon Opening, but with Free action errata it doesn't work with Dual weapon Strike.)

POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Bond of Pursuit
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Dilettante: Dual Weapon Attack
Avenger encounter 1: Raging Tempest (Great for charges, since you hit hard then follow up even harder)
Avenger daily 1: Strength of Many
Avenger utility 2: Avenger's Resolve
Avenger encounter 3: Fury's Advance (You can use this TWICE!!!, due to Paragon Path)
Avenger daily 5: Menacing Presence
Avenger utility 6: Cloaked Steps
Avenger encounter 7: Inexorable Pursuit
Avenger daily 9: Blade of Repulsion
Avenger utility 10: Wings of Vengeance (Flying is cool)
Avenger encounter 13: Weaving Blades
Avenger daily 15: Aspect of Fury
Avenger utility 16: Temple of Seclusion
Avenger encounter 17: Warding Blade
Avenger daily 19: Vengeful Recovery

Equipment
Armor: Flowform Armor +4
Main Hand Weapon: Dual Scimitar of Harmony +4 (this isn't defined as a free action so it still works.)
Off Hand Weapon: Dual Scimitar (other end)
Neck Slot: Brooch of Shielding +4, DR 15
Arm Slot:  Iron Armbands of Power +4
Basic Melee Attack
Overwhelming Strike: +22 to hit, 1d6+21 damage, +5 stacking situational damage until EONT.
66% chance to normal hit on a level 20, 7.5% chance to get a Critical hit

46.17 or so damage versus a level 20 monster if its your oath target.  

(I factored in the critical hits, and the extra attacks generated, with an average of a level 20 monsters relevant defense, if you were not attacked.)

P.S. Please check my math with Char Builder, I may have missed something. . .   

Dual Weapon Attack is not a level 1 at-will (it is an at will gained at level 1 as part of a class feature), and should be incompatible with Dillettante.

Certainly looks like a poachable power to me, with your logic you can't choose Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike either because their class features? (if posting the power violates anything I apologize and will edit.)

The problem is that power has no level, while the two Warlock powers you mentioned both have a level (1)

Yeah it's a shame that Dual Strike won't work, getting Overwhelming Strike after hitting with the first attack could have been pretty godly!

Nov 9, 2010 -- 4:53PM, Roofshadow wrote:

And the feat Cunning Stalker from HotFK seems perfect for avengers.. getting CA against enemies that noone is adjacent other than you.

This depends a bit on censure (worthless for unionists) and party tactics (I often flank with our fighter for Battle Awareness tricks and the combination of his RoS and my Slashing Storm) but at the very least it's an interesting alternative for Deadly Draw (for which the set-up becomes more of a nuisance the better striker you are).

Nov 9, 2010 -- 8:07PM, Dielzen wrote:

The problem is that power has no level, while the two Warlock powers you mentioned both have a level (1)

Right.

Dilettante: At 1st level, you choose a 1st-level at-will attack power from a class different from yours. You can use that power as an encounter power.

It needs to be a level 1 power.

Nov 10, 2010 -- 5:31AM, mellored wrote:

Nov 9, 2010 -- 8:07PM, Dielzen wrote:

The problem is that power has no level, while the two Warlock powers you mentioned both have a level (1)

Right.

Dilettante: At 1st level, you choose a 1st-level at-will attack power from a class different from yours. You can use that power as an encounter power.

It needs to be a level 1 power.

this is indeed what i meant, much more eloquently, and without the aid of NyQuil.

Hey Auspex, out of curiosity, how would a Human Pursuit Avenger/Ardent Champion/Eternal Seeker w/a Fullblade fare? I'm contemplating designing one for a little side project.

Nov 12, 2010 -- 6:53PM, Tech-Priest wrote:

Hey Auspex, out of curiosity, how would a Human Pursuit Avenger/Ardent Champion/Eternal Seeker w/a Fullblade fare? I'm contemplating designing one for a little side project.

Depends on the feat and power choices you make. They can be fantastic.

Eternal Seeker jumps out at me. Are you looking at that for the AP benefit at L24, or are you planning on jacking Strength, and poaching attacks from Barbarian?

Does this Avenger build sound alright, feat wise?  And what paragon  would fit best?  As far as epic, I've got to go with Eternal Seeker,  since by epic things tend to teleport and I want the swordmage's  Shackled Warding

I spend the heroic tier doing preliminary work:
Level 1: Unarmored Agility
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Deadly Draw
Level 6: Improved Armor of Faith
Level 8: Power of Skill
Level 10: Avenging Resolution

Now,  I've had fun with deadly draw and my overwhelming strike, so far, but  for the first time since 4E came out, I wish I had rogue abilities.   What do I do with all this combat advantage?  MCing Rogue is really not  feasible.  So;
Level 11: Censure's Grip
Level 12: Defensive Advantage

So  now I've got you right where I want you.  For Torm's sake, I'm  officially a mugger.  What's this, a radiant weapon?  Feel the power of  my glowing blade!
Level 14: Exposing Oath
Level 16: Painful Oath

Now, I know how the CA card is played, so
Level 18: Uncanny Dodge
Level 20: Paragon Defenses

Hey, get back here, and fight me face to face...
Level 21: Oath Strike
Level 22: Flanking Maneuver
Level 24: Vengeful Declaration

Take that and that and that...
Level 26: Hand of Divine Guidance
Level 28: Overwhelming Critical

What else do you need to finally take out Orcus?
Level 30: Epic Fortitude
Just to be safe...

I dislike all of the paragon choices, so far.  Also, can I get more out of my combat advantage?

Nov 13, 2010 -- 2:41AM, darkling2k8 wrote:

Does this Avenger build sound alright, feat wise?  And what paragon would fit best?  As far as epic, I've got to go with Eternal Seeker, since by epic things tend to teleport and I want the swordmage's Shackled Warding

I spend the heroic tier doing preliminary work:
Level 1: Unarmored Agility
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Deadly Draw
Level 6: Improved Armor of Faith
Level 8: Power of Skill
Level 10: Avenging Resolution

Now, I've had fun with deadly draw and my overwhelming strike, so far, but for the first time since 4E came out, I wish I had rogue abilities.  What do I do with all this combat advantage?  MCing Rogue is really not feasible.  So;
Level 11: Censure's Grip
Level 12: Defensive Advantage

So now I've got you right where I want you.  For Torm's sake, I'm officially a mugger.  What's this, a radiant weapon?  Feel the power of my glowing blade!
Level 14: Exposing Oath
Level 16: Painful Oath

Now, I know how the CA card is played, so
Level 18: Uncanny Dodge
Level 20: Paragon Defenses

Hey, get back here, and fight me face to face...
Level 21: Oath Strike
Level 22: Flanking Maneuver
Level 24: Vengeful Declaration

Take that and that and that...
Level 26: Hand of Divine Guidance
Level 28: Overwhelming Critical

What else do you need to finally take out Orcus?
Level 30: Epic Fortitude
Just to be safe...

I dislike all of the paragon choices, so far.  Also, can I get more out of my combat advantage?

Personally, I would get Fullblade in their somehow, worth the feat in so many ways.  Paragon defenses has been replaced by a heroic tier feat called improved defenses that scales (+1/+2/+3).  In fact, improved armor of faith can probably be pushed off if taken at all and replaced with fullblade prof.

Nov 12, 2010 -- 9:40PM, Auspex7 wrote:

Nov 12, 2010 -- 6:53PM, Tech-Priest wrote:

Hey Auspex, out of curiosity, how would a Human Pursuit Avenger/Ardent Champion/Eternal Seeker w/a Fullblade fare? I'm contemplating designing one for a little side project.

Depends on the feat and power choices you make. They can be fantastic.

Eternal Seeker jumps out at me. Are you looking at that for the AP benefit at L24, or are you planning on jacking Strength, and poaching attacks from Barbarian?

Honestly, I just sort of chose something @ random that seemed to fit.

However, now that you mentioned barbarian, I was actually thinking of doing a charger build - is that wise/worth it with this type of build? How would it be done?

Nov 13, 2010 -- 6:56AM, Tech-Priest wrote:

Nov 12, 2010 -- 9:40PM, Auspex7 wrote:

Nov 12, 2010 -- 6:53PM, Tech-Priest wrote:

Hey Auspex, out of curiosity, how would a Human Pursuit Avenger/Ardent Champion/Eternal Seeker w/a Fullblade fare? I'm contemplating designing one for a little side project.

Depends on the feat and power choices you make. They can be fantastic.

Eternal Seeker jumps out at me. Are you looking at that for the AP benefit at L24, or are you planning on jacking Strength, and poaching attacks from Barbarian?

Honestly, I just sort of chose something @ random that seemed to fit.

However, now that you mentioned barbarian, I was actually thinking of doing a charger build - is that wise/worth it with this type of build? How would it be done?

Charger avengers are some of the most powerful if not the most powerful.  I would check out the full avenger guide (community.wizards.com/charop/wiki/Avenge...) for some good info on charge builds.

Nov 13, 2010 -- 6:56AM, Tech-Priest wrote:

Nov 12, 2010 -- 9:40PM, Auspex7 wrote:

Nov 12, 2010 -- 6:53PM, Tech-Priest wrote:

Hey Auspex, out of curiosity, how would a Human Pursuit Avenger/Ardent Champion/Eternal Seeker w/a Fullblade fare? I'm contemplating designing one for a little side project.

Depends on the feat and power choices you make. They can be fantastic.

Eternal Seeker jumps out at me. Are you looking at that for the AP benefit at L24, or are you planning on jacking Strength, and poaching attacks from Barbarian?

Honestly, I just sort of chose something @ random that seemed to fit.

However, now that you mentioned barbarian, I was actually thinking of doing a charger build - is that wise/worth it with this type of build? How would it be done?

It depends on what level your starting at.

Eternal seeker taking Barbarian charge powers (including howling strike) is very strong, but you need Str, which doesn't work well in heroic.

I'd like to start him from the ground up, so he'd need to be functional @ all levels...

Human seems like the race I'll be going with, though I've set nothing in stone yet.

I'm still at a loss as to what'll offer the best choices for the entire build.

Nov 13, 2010 -- 2:41AM, darkling2k8 wrote:

Does this Avenger build sound alright, feat wise?

Some random suggestions:

• Improved Armor of Faith isn't really that strong anymore since the nerf, I don't think you need it
• Like Airpower suggested: get a superior weapon like a fullblade, executioner's axe or gouge
• Why do you have Avenging Resolution? Are you planning on using a Falchion? In that case ignore the point above. If not: Avenging Resolution is probably a trap
• No multiclass feat?
• Painful Oath is way too good to be delayed until level 16, take this at level 11
• Overwhelming Critical isn't all that strong, on average it's a mediocre bonus to damage

Nov 13, 2010 -- 6:56AM, Tech-Priest wrote:

However, now that you mentioned  barbarian, I was actually thinking of doing a charger build - is that  wise/worth it with this type of build? How would it be done?

Avengers are very good chargers because they have one of the best MBAs in the game! The archetypal build I created for kilpatds' handbook can be found here and uses most of the tricks that are available as well as several alternatives, if you have any particular questions regarding charging avengers don't hesitate to ask question's here or pm me, because I'm utterly in love with them!

Hey, thanks I_F! Check your PMs when you get a chance, I'm still trying to sort out the build.

• Improved Armor of Faith isn't really that strong anymore since the nerf, I don't think you need it
• Like Airpower suggested: get a superior weapon like a fullblade, executioner's axe or gouge
• Why do you have Avenging Resolution? Are you planning on using a Falchion? In that case ignore the point above. If not: Avenging Resolution is probably a trap
• No multiclass feat?
• Painful Oath is way too good to be delayed until level 16, take this at level 11
• Overwhelming Critical isn't all that strong, on average it's a mediocre bonus to damage

How about this?

FEATS
Level 1: Unarmored Agility
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Deadly Draw
Level 6: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
Level 8: Power of Skill
Level 10: ??????????
Level 11: Exposing Oath
Level 12: Painful Oath
Level 14: Censure's Grip
Level 16: Defensive Advantage
Level 18: Uncanny Dodge
Level 20: Improved Defenses
Level 21: Oath Strike
Level 22: Flanking Maneuver
Level 24: Vengeful Declaration
Level 26: Hand of Divine Guidance
Level 28: ????????????
Level 30: Epic Fortitude

I  pushed my three CA paragon feats back, which makes me a little less  worried about what to do with the CA, to move Painful Oath up.  I did  take Exposing Oath first, 'cuase my DM tends to metagame, and if he  knows I'm gonna do a lot of radiant damage, I will be facing creatures  with resistances.  Now that the true merit of avenging resolution has  been pointed out to me (good trick with the falchion) and don't plan on  taking the falchion (6-8 dmg, meh) what would be a good feat at level  ten?  And Overwhelming Critical really is the fighter's job, so now I  have a hole there, too.  Was taking it as a filler, really.  Don't see  anything that good at 28 or 30.
Also, still havn't seen a paragon path worth playing.  Serene Initiate seems, ah... ok... but kinda redundant.
'No multiclass feat?'  My stats are
Str 12, Con 15, Dex 25, Int 12, Wis 25, Cha 15 at level 30,
I'm  not cut out for Fighter or Pally, and the rogue is already nerfed  before coming into the class from another.  Would you (or anyone)  suggest a multiclass feat?

Nov 14, 2010 -- 1:56AM, darkling2k8 wrote:

How about this?

Are you already locked into your stats? Because your charisma', intelligence and costitutionseem rather high and those points might better be put in strength to qualify for battle awareness (fighter MC) or maybe even power attack in epic. If you can't change the stats anymore (if I remember correctly you are already playing this character, right?) then iteresting MC feats would be cleric for a bit of extra healing an feats like radiant advantage or MC warlock for starfire womb.

Other feats you take at level 10 are weapon focus or oath strike, this would also clear your level 21 slot for hand of divine guidance which you will want as soon as you can get it.

Improved Will might be a very very nice feat to put in that open epic slot, and you might wanna have a look at Long Step, which is a nicer epic mobility feat then flanking maneuver.

Have you considered Ardent Champion for your paragon path? It is really very good! Or if you MC cleric you could look at radiant servant...

Nov 13, 2010 -- 11:42AM, Ignis_Fatuus wrote:

• Why do you have Avenging Resolution? Are you planning on using a Falchion? In that case ignore the point above. If not: Avenging Resolution is probably a trap

Avenging resolution isn't exactly a trap, but it does do very little without multiple dice.  So if you just using a fullblade (+.25 damage) it's not worth it, but for a charge build using a maul, which rolls many d6 (+.5 damage for each dice), it's definatly worth it.

Edit: Falchon + Avenging resolution (6.5 damage) = Fullblade (6.5 damage).  Though the falchon falls a bit behind on a crit, even when you use resolution on the crit dice.

Nov 14, 2010 -- 8:53AM, mellored wrote:

Avenging resolution isn't exactly a trap, but it does do very little without multiple dice.  So if you just using a fullblade (+.25 damage) it's not worth it, but for a charge build using a maul, which rolls many d6 (+.5 damage for each dice), it's definatly worth it.

Edit: Falchon + Avenging resolution (6.5 damage) = Fullblade (6.5 damage).  Though the falchon falls a bit behind on a crit, even when you use resolution on the crit dice.

Yeah I'm sorry, I should have been a bit more nuanced, there are several weapons that can benefit quite a bit from avenging resolution (and I love the fact that the feat added falchion to the list of optimizable avenger weapons). I just had a feeling that the feat was overestimated in this case...

Spot Weakness was updated to only boost one damage roll, which might warrant a color downgrade. Also, Deliverance of Faith is listed under u2, but I think it's a u6.

I'm back in the 4e game and am looking for some help bumping up my old 12th level PC all the way to 26th. The main issue is having to replace some of my current powers. There are definitely some good ones at the higher levels, but I also like the ones I've got now and don't really want to replace them ...

See here for more: my avenger.

I went ahead and calculated the DPR for the Avenger sample build on the first page in order to help other visualize the DPR of the build.

Huge math from excel below:
"excel math" Show  
You can download the excel here.

I'm fairly confident up to the point of the black line.

I haven't been able to figure out the formula to calculate roll twice % chance to hit. Which prevents me from calculating deadly draw. For now I have the #s manual.

These calculations assume you get a new vanguard weapon at each level available (3,8,13, etc). And a new horned helm at 16,16,26.

The censure of pursuit column is really easy to pull off if you have a defender - stand behind the mob who is facing the defender and then overwhelming strike(or charge in our case to overwhelming0, sliding each of you back 1. the mob moves to the defender - bam - dmg.

Relevent levels:
level : DPR
1 : 18.056
6 :  27.279
11 :  36.82
16 : at least 44.086
21 : at least 45.721
26: at least 52.747
30: at least 51.919

If anyone is able to help refine my numbers please go ahead~!

Radiant Servant got Daggermaster'd, so the 19-20 crit range is no longer a useful feature for Avengers

I already removed it and Warpriest from the wiki/comphrensive handbook.  (A7's not been around much, so maintaining this handbook may be tricky)

Something I dont completely understand about your comments regarding the morninglord PP. Players gain +1 to all stats at level 11. Why do I need to start with 12 charisma, instead of just 11 (becomes 12 after the bump) doing so would allow a 16(wis),16(dex),13 (str),11(cha),10,10 array........

Auspex, I look forward to the day when you fill out the "Gear n stuff" section of your handbook.


J

That day is unlikely the ever come around. This thread is pretty old and A7 has been away from the boards for quite a while

This thread really helped me hit the ground running when a friend asked me to fill in at level 20 for a player who was moving away. I understand that Auspex hasn't been around, but in the off chance that this is of interest to anyone, I'd love to hear opinions.

I'm playing a Rrathmal of Tempus-style Pursuit Avenger and I've been using this combo with and without charging.

Sep 27, 2010 -- 5:29AM, Ignis_Fatuus wrote:

Sep 27, 2010 -- 4:37AM, langeweile wrote:

Something that occured to me when meddling with my char for our next Delve...

A charging crit with RRoT can one-shot an Artillery / Lurker across all levels, and pulp any other non-Brute hard enough to die with the next hit.
--> A Gith Rrathmal can prep a crit and also makes a very good Avenger and gets access to the required Fullblade (or theoretically Executiner Axe) easily.

Nice idea! You could actually do all of this in one turn, every encounter:
- Minor: Oath (in epic as a free action due to Vengeful Declaration, leaving you a move for positioning)
- Minor: RROT
- Standard: Trace Chance
- Action point: Charge!
- Free: Symbol of Victory (every uneven encounter of the day)

Works like a charm.

Now Auspex7 had rated the feat Epic Resurgence pretty low, but when used with the above combo, you get your Trace Chance back thus setting you up for another crit. Symbol of Victory gets you back your Action Point. Deadly Draw and Censure's Grip keep the bad guy next to you unless they want to provoke another Overwhelming Strike. Throw in a couple War Rings and an Aquamarine Solitaire and your OoE dies pretty quickly.