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3 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2010 - 1:21PM
#131
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Date Joined:
Sep 15, 2006
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Prior to the talk on here, I, including my group, and from the responses here, others took that a damage die is a single die rolled, and not the same as weaspon dice. However that also wasn't commented on when i got my reply.
The rules are pretty clear that "damage die" is the damage listed in the weapons table.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2010 - 1:28PM
#132
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The rules are pretty clear that "damage die" is the damage listed in the weapons table.
Just wanted to back that up with the Compendium.
Each size category larger than Medium increases the weapon’s damage die by one size.
One-Handed
1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10 -> 1d12 -> 2d6 -> 2d8 -> 2d10
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3 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2010 - 1:50PM
#133
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Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2009
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Update to my understand of weapon die is taken and I am ok with that. Just look it literally as 1 die and will update my group as well since they all said the same, and as per what the response was from the CSR, I will let my group know. Good talk everyone 
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3 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2010 - 1:52PM
#134
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Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2009
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But I guess if for what ever reason Brutal is rulled at a later date that reroll powers like luckbenders trumps brutal itself, then the 1d12 brtual 2 doesn't equal 1d10+2 only with reroll take the second result if it is lower.
If brutal still works after it is ruled later with an update, then I may just have my group do the 1d10+2 for brutal 2 on a 1d12.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2010 - 3:42PM
#135
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But I guess if for what ever reason Brutal is rulled at a later date that reroll powers like luckbenders trumps brutal itself, then the 1d12 brtual 2 doesn't equal 1d10+2 only with reroll take the second result if it is lower.
If brutal still works after it is ruled later with an update, then I may just have my group do the 1d10+2 for brutal 2 on a 1d12.
Seriously, get yourself a d10 and *alter* the 1 and the 2 to read "11" and "12" with paint or something, and use it for a game. It will change your life!
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3 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2010 - 4:21PM
#136
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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Luckbender: Reroll one damage die, using the second result even if it is lower.
Brutal: When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value
The second "result" for luckbender isn't completed until you have done any rerolls from Brutal. Brutal requires that you reroll any die less than the brutal value to determine the result of rolling damage die.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2010 - 6:10PM
#137
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Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2009
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Go back a few pages and see the answer from the CSR. It was left open ended both "right" and "wrong" and isn't cut and dry simple.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2010 - 6:51PM
#138
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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Go back a few pages and see the answer from the CSR. It was left open ended both "right" and "wrong" and isn't cut and dry simple.
I read it. But given it's CustServ, I chose to disregard it.
It's not cut and dry, but I think the language is far more in favor of my (and others here) interpretation than yours.
I see where your argument is coming from, but given that Luckbender refers to a result, I think you are missing the intent of the word. It doesn't just have to mean "the exact roll". Your interpretation is too literal, and if you took it too far could mean you don't even apply any modifiers to the damage (since that is part of determining the result of a damage roll).
Also, you are arguing specific vs general (incorrectly IMO since they are both specific rules), but it could just as easily be treated the other way around if it is a specific vs general arguement. Generally you use the second roll. But specifically if it is below the brutal value, you reroll it.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2010 - 8:20PM
#139
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Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2009
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All I was saying for RAW was brutal on a weapon is more specific then not brutal on a weapon. However, luckbenders saying take the second roll result even if it is lower is more specific then brutal. If this is possibly correct RAW and from customer service not telling me I was wrong, then thats all. I as a player would argue as you state RAI (IMO but you state as RAW), but as i explained before...
"The second "result" for luckbender isn't completed until you have done any rerolls from Brutal. Brutal requires that you reroll any die less than the brutal value to determine the result of rolling damage die."
If this is true, then there would be a timing sequence to fall back on in the rules so it isn't assumed or interpret the intention. Roll a die, the result is what you see, but before that result officially occurs brutal is allowed for rerolling, I am ok with that but no one said that is when brutal occurs officially by ruling. There is no timing definition. There is only a property to a weapon that applies to many weapons, and a power the applies to a specific roll. But through this thread I did agree that a weapon dmg on mordenkrad is 2d6 and not 1d6 as a weapon die is the full weapon die(dice for mordenkrad)
When I DM I RAW all rulings that pertain to an individual, and RAI or house rule anything that is universal if there is such a situation. When I play a char in a game I argue RAI or RAW all the time to best help me out but as a DM that would be unfair to one person over another and cause bad blood. This has worked for me for the last 15 months... So its not like I am trying to tell you that you and everyone else is wrong, but that RAW as brutal doesn't apply on luckbenders is a seen RAW and taking Intent out, is a logical conclusion or I am sure CSR's would of shut me down.
The customer service response by not telling me I am wrong means that it is up to RAI for brutal to kick in or not kick in or it is RAW for brutal to kick in or not kick in, but since I stated it as brutal didn't kick in on a luckbenders and referenced it as RAW and was not shot down, then the only way that could occur is if RAW lends credence to what I did(as per my example). But RAW can be both? Not hard to imagine. Am I wrong? not by the CSR. Am I right, well I was only told that a game developer would update the rules because of this. My only "assumption" is that it would be ruled to allow the reroll of brutal after luckbenders. (only my assumption, if the new ruling says brutal doesn't allow reroll, then suck, but is as per intended then). So you may ask why not rule it this way anyways.... again for fairness to the 5 other party members who don't use brutal, I only rule RAW when it applies to individuals. Not fair doesn't mean hurt dmg output, but by choosing RAI for one situation and not another.
No where did I tell anyone else that running the game that brutal shouldn't be rolled on a luckbenders reroll or other powers that say reroll the dmg and take the second result even if it is lower. Only that I stopped one of my players per my reading of RAW of the 2 abilities and for the record was technically not told by 2 CSR's that I was not wrong. The first CSR didn't even reply and put it up to the second level. I guess third level is a game designer. Do I see your point yes, never once said I didn't, only that i ruled from what i saw was RAW and was told by the CSR reps I was not wrong.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 26, 2010 - 9:02PM
#140
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All I was saying for RAW was brutal on a weapon is more specific then not brutal on a weapon. However, luckbenders saying take the second roll result even if it is lower is more specific then brutal. If this is possibly correct RAW and from customer service not telling me I was wrong, then thats all. I as a player would argue as you state RAI (IMO but you state as RAW), but as i explained before...
I'll reiterate my earlier comment that that is not a good example of specific beats general. Good examples of specific beats general are when the general rule is actually referenced, powers allowing stealth at otherwise improper times are often good examples.
I would say the general rule is you roll a dice once and that's the result. Both Brutal & Luckbender are specific exceptions to this general rule because there is not a general rule that you reroll dice. Therefore, the question becomes how these specifics interact with one another. That's the problem with characterizing as specific beats general when you don't have a reason to believe either property/item is referencing the other.
As pointed out, if you are treating it as specific beats general there is nothing to indicate which one is specific and which one is general precisely. Yes, you point to Luckbender's line about having to keep the second roll, however, an equally valid RAW reading is that Brutal says to reroll until a result is above the Brutal value. From there it obviously goes down into a RAI issue because you start debating what the roll is, etc, etc.
Anyways, if the discussion is continuing to go on why is either Brutal or Luckbender the general rule and why isn't the general rule simply that you don't reroll, with there being numerous specific exceptions to this general rule; elven accuracy, second chance, brutal, luckbender, oath of enmity, etc, etc. At least in my estimation that seems like much more of a general rule complete with all kinds of exceptions.
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