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3 years ago ::
May 11, 2010 - 8:47AM
#21
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Scott: "Illusionists are available as a wizard build presented in Arcane Power."
Not a problem. The Arcane power source is the 'generalist' power source that dabbles in anything and everything, from 'Divine' healing to 'Shadow' necromancy to 'Elemental' fireballs. Its the way should be.
However, the other power sources, like Psionic, Divine, Shadow, Elemental, and Primal, are 'specialist' power sources. If the 'Illusionist' becomes a class, it would specialize in mental effects and force-construct effects, thus be Psionic.
"Illusion, and mental effects in general, are more traditionally associated with witches."
The medieval Norse viking-style 'witch' (seidr) is strictly telepathic, definitively Psionic with 'second-sight' clarivoyance and precognition (spa), and 'mindforce' (hugr) manipulation, including illusion via the manipulation of perceivable reality (ginning).
Anyway, obviously 'mental effects in general' SHOULD be associated with the Psionic power source.
"Things Not Meant For Mortals To Understand, ie, arcane power source."
Actually, as far as Wizards go, the Arcane power source is precisely what 'mortals' can 'understand': the intelligible protoscientific laws and formulas that govern the multiverse.
Arcane is protoscientific technology, including cutting-edge research. Note Wizard and Artificer.
Psionic is the power of the mind, including mysticism of consciousness and presence. Note Psion and Monk.
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3 years ago ::
May 11, 2010 - 12:57PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2007
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Why would you think of some kind of psychic witch instead of the shifty old crone that works in poisons and potions and makes deals with the dead or devils? Wizards typically being associated with either madness or dark powers indicates that it's not meant for mortals to understand, and carries consequences for those that try. Granted, this makes less sense in a world like Forgotten Realms, but it's great for a world steeped in superstition. Even though psionics and the Far Realm seem to go hand in hand, a lot of the actions of humans in Lovecraft's work when it comes to rituals is distinctly arcane; it's our pathetic and ignorant way of trying to cope with the insanity of Whatever They Are. In that sense, arcane magic could just be crude psionics.
However, I don't get where you think certain power sources are "specialists." They're the how, not the what. As I mentioned, divine, primal and psionic powers (your "specialist" powers) can accomplish what arcane can accomplish (as in, you could have a party of all divine/all primal/all psionic/all arcane, and each party could do everything the other parties can do). Martial can also do anything they do, mechanically, if plausibly presented. We only have one shadow class and I admittedly don't know much about it; but elemental, which is unused at this time, could easily lead (including heal) and control in addition to strike and defend. Classes have something other than power sources in their design, and that's their role. There is no shoehorned "should" with what power source can fulfill what role, only a "OK, how do we make that work?"
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3 years ago ::
May 11, 2010 - 8:05PM
#23
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Scott: "Wizards typically being associated with either madness or dark powers indicates that it's not meant for mortals to understand."
The flavor that you describe - the 'madness' of 'dark powers' that 'mortals' arent 'meant to understand' - pertains to the flavor of the Farrealm. Which associates intimately with the Psionic power source, arguably moreso than with Arcane. So even *if* Illusion uses Farrealm flavor, even then, Illusion is *still* well within the provinance of the themes of Psionic.
As far as the Arcane Wizard goes, you grant indirectly, in the official high-fantasy campaign settings, like Forgotten Realms, the Arcane power source does master powers that *are* for mortals to understand. So, that undermines your argument, where Arcane must monopolize mental effects because they are 'madness'. (It wasnt a very good argument anyway.) Psionic is awesome for madness flavor too.
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3 years ago ::
May 12, 2010 - 12:11AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2007
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So, that undermines your argument, where Arcane must monopolize mental effects because they are 'madness'.
My argument is that no power source can monopolize anything; or more accurately, every power source can do everything. Additionally, that psionics are weird from a thematic standpoint (in addition to the mechanics) and very unlikely to catch on with Essentials' primary target audience even with standard mechanics.
Druids and wizards are so iconic that anyone can tell them apart, like an elf and a dwarf, even if the player is new to fantasy. Wizards and sorcerers (words that are interchangeable to most people) are more like elves and eladrin, you have to be familiar with D&D to tell the difference. Wizards and psions are like elves and devas; you can tell them apart, but what the hell is a deva?
Ultimately, the supernatural will almost always be attributed to magic before psionics. Jedi are more prevalent (and probably better understood) in our culture than psionics or even psychics, if you want to use a non-D&D term.
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3 years ago ::
May 12, 2010 - 10:34AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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MrMyth: "the only reason it isn't considered essential, is due to fringe mechanics, rather than the flavor of Psionics itself"
For the most part, 4e ensures appropriate quasi-medieval flavor for all its core content, and for Psionic got rid of the technobabble flavor. So, pseudoscientific flavor doesnt exist and isnt an issue.
That's only really true in theory, though. For many players, Psionics will remain psuedoscientific in flavor, and thus, divorced from the core fantasy elements of D&D.
I'm not arguing whether or not is should be, I'm just saying that is the way it is from the perspective of many, and that perspective is why it isn't in a product like D&D Essentials... not because of the mechanics.
As it is, many will feel that Psionics is still 'something different', and that core elements of illusion/psychic magic can be preserved via arcane magic as the domain of wizards and bards.
Haldrik, at this point, I'm not sure what you are arguing. Are you saying that we are incorrect when we claim that many D&D players will continue to view Psionics as slightly removed from the core fantasy elements of the game? Are you claiming that because 4E works harder to incorporate it into the default setting of the game, the existing preconceptions of countless players has evaporated overnight? Or are you just saying you wish those perspectives would change, so that Psionics could take a place in a product like D&D Essentials?
The last part, I don't disagree with - I think Psionics does have a place in the game, and 4E has done a good job of making it fit conceptually with the rest of the game. I just don't think everyone's view of it will change that quick. And its lack of place in D&D Essentials is a reflection of that, not a result of having 'fringe mechanics'. If you really don't believe that - if you think ascottbay and I are outright lying when we claim that many players don't view psionics as fundamentally fantasy as druids - then I really don't think there is anything for us to say to convince you.
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3 years ago ::
May 12, 2010 - 1:07PM
#26
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Myth: "Are you claiming that because 4E works harder to incorporate it into the default setting of the game, the existing preconceptions of countless players has evaporated overnight? Or are you just saying you wish those perspectives would change, so that Psionics could take a place in a product like D&D Essentials?"
*smirk* Something like that.
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3 years ago ::
May 12, 2010 - 1:55PM
#27
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For me, the flavors of the Jedi and the Force and of the Psionic power source are near identical.
What themes of magic does the Force cover? Medieval-esque, scholastic, mage-knights and mage-sages, innate intuitive power, mysticism of consciousness and presence, mental effects, telepathy, precognition, scrying, thought control, charm, domination, suggestion, psychic damage, illusion, force effects, telekinesis, energy control, levitation, flying, force constructs, soul projection, bodily aura, etcetera, etcetera. It is the same themes as Psionic.
If WotC decided to discontinue the term 'Psionic power source' and replaced it with the 'Force power source' it would be a difference in name only.
(I just pretend references to midichlorians arent happening.)
Of course, 'Force' flavor isnt the only flavor that resonates with Psionic, but it is a central one. Other Psionic flavors include the Lovecraftian unraveling-reality flavor that inspires the Farrealms and Aberrants. Historical Medieval themes can include: the psychic witches of the Vikings as vicious telepaths who kill their enemies with suggestions and illusions, and as revered prescients whose foretellings save their communities from surprising dangers, Daoist monks who wield the bodily aura and who unite with the aura of the universe, Hindu gurus as philosophers of the mind, Jewish kabalists who unite human and universal wisdom, and so on. Where there is a will, there is a way.
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3 years ago ::
May 12, 2010 - 2:00PM
#28
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Scott: "My argument is that no power source can monopolize anything; or more accurately, every power source can do everything."
So ... the Psionic power source can do Illusions.
So, it is ok if the Illusionist class uses the Psionic power source.
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3 years ago ::
May 15, 2010 - 2:55AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jul 10, 2007
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I think you'll find that, while psionics can replicate the powers of illusionists, the illusionist class is inextricably tied to the arcane power source. That's just the way that most people envision the ullusionist class.
Don't believe everything you think 
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3 years ago ::
May 15, 2010 - 9:43AM
#30
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Jamison: "The illusionist class is inextricably tied to the arcane power source. That's just the way that most people envision the ullusionist class."
Theres nothing 'inextricable' about it.
In previous editions, the only magic power sources were Divine and Arcane. But now ...
The Primal power source can extricate the bulk of the nature-magic themes from the Divine and Arcane power sources for its own thematics.
The Shadow power source can extricate the bulk of the necromantic themes from the Divine and Arcane power sources for its own thematics.
The Psionic power source can extricate the bulk of the psychic-force magic themes from the Divine and Arcane power sources for its own thematics.
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