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 Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A Blurred Step Stopping Movement?
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2010 - 12:33PM #121
Tsuul
Date Joined: Apr 4, 2002
Posts: 755

Apr 16, 2010 -- 12:23PM, Tsuul wrote:

Rules consistency POV:
Shift into an invisible hidden opponents square (an opponent you didn't know was there), and the end result is the same, you [aparantly] remain in your square and you lose your movement (all of it). The end result is the same, even though there is a process to it that involves you leaving your square and getting shunted out, interrupt style.

Ughh, this reminded me. The shift that is interrupted by the Battlemind isn't invalidated. The enemy is still allowed to shift into the square now occupied. He just gets shunted out and all his movement is removed. Via the Moving into Occupied Squares rules.
But I think I am alone on this interpretation...

"Oh bother." sighed Pooh as he chambered another round.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2010 - 12:34PM #122
Galkasaur
Date Joined: Jun 3, 2009
Posts: 2,058

Apr 16, 2010 -- 12:23PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

I see the nuance. It hasn't Shifted yet. No, in fact it has started Shifting, but hasn't moved yet, from one square to another, that's for sure. What's a Shift ? A movement of one square. He hasn't completly Shifted yet. If he had Shifted, the Battlemind couldn't enter in his square. You keep missing this.

I disagree with you relating equating shifting and moving. Shifting, moving, and teleporting are ways of arriving at a square. Shift, Move, and Crawl are actions that grant you a specified distance you can travel with a particular type of movement.

To somewhat highlight what myself and other posters have been trying to get across. Let's say there is an interupt power that functions when an enemy shifts away from you. You clearly know what square that enemy is moving to because the power only functions if the enemy is going to be further away from you, it would not function if he were going to stay adjacent to you. However, because the power is an interupt it is still hitting that enemy before he is actually away from you and whatever its consequences may be that enemy did try to enter that square away because that is what provoked the attack.

BS is really no different than that scenario. Until there is shifting to a square there is no use of the power. Shifting is not some action that the creature is contemplating it is a way of moving to another square.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2010 - 12:47PM #123
FitzNighteyes
Date Joined: Jun 10, 2002
Posts: 8,989

Apr 16, 2010 -- 12:23PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

It hasn't Shifted yet. No, in fact it has started Shifting, but hasn't moved yet, from one square to another, that's for sure. What's a Shift ? A movement of one square. He hasn't completly Shifted yet. If he had Shifted, the Battlemind couldn't enter in his square. You keep missing this.

If he hasn't shifted yet, he hasn't triggered the Battlemind's power.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2010 - 7:27PM #124
Artoomis
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1,755
I think CustServ is wrong on this one BUT it makes the power work like it should in that it prevents escape by a shift.

I thiink a rules update to allow the action to be a free action (reaction) once per turn would be better.   That way no oddball precedent needs be set that might very well have unintended consequences.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2010 - 9:15PM #125
zgrose
Date Joined: Apr 5, 2004
Posts: 2,544
This is hardly the first shift on immediate interrupt, btw. The first At-Will perhaps.

Weave Through the Fray (Ranger Utility 6) from PHB1 is essentially all the same pieces of the recipe.
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2010 - 11:02PM #126
Artoomis
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1,755

Apr 16, 2010 -- 9:15PM, zgrose wrote:

This is hardly the first shift on immediate interrupt, btw. The first At-Will perhaps.

Weave Through the Fray (Ranger Utility 6) from PHB1 is essentially all the same pieces of the recipe.

Except with a clearly different goal - that being to stay AWAY from the enemy, out of melee.  Whether it works depends upon how much movement the enemy has remaining.  Given that the ranger gets to shift multiple squares (up to wisdom modifier), odds are he'll be able to stay out of melee combat once per encounter using that power.

# Weave Through the Fray

You  dodge through the thick of the fight, denying your foes a chance to pin  you down in one spot.

Encounter        Martial
Immediate Interrupt      Personal

Trigger: An enemy moves adjacent to you

Effect: You can shift a number of squares equal  to your Wisdom modifier.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2010 - 3:43AM #127
Plaguescarred
Date Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 16,564
Ok. After looking into it again, i came to a different conclusion. Only fools don't change their mind ...

If a Trigger contains a destination with a movement and another one none, they aren't suppose to happen at different time when Interrupted. I know movement interrupted happens before they move, wether it's Combat Challenge or Blurred Step interrupting a Shift, the situation is the same, just different outcome. The enemy is still adjacent when jumping in.

Now, knowing Interrupts should all happen at the same timing, i hardly see why then one could Interrupt knowing where the enemy is going and not the other. For this reasons, i believe that if you started moving and get Interrupted, this whatever the Move Action, everyone will be able to acknowledge where you are going and where will be your next step. I didn't find anything specifying this in the Rules for Speed, Shift, Walk or other movement, but i assume that when you start to leave a square, it's to enter another even if you're interrupted before resolving your movement and leaving your actual square.

Now going with this, i think the Rules on Occupied Squares should prevail, resulting in an invalid movement being occupied by a creature you can't enter into (taken that it is not Helpless or two Size smaller or larger than you) and the move would end in the last square you could occupy legally. And if you had more than 1 square of movement remaining when Shifting (Strike and Move, Long Step etc.), you'd be allowed to continue Shift wherever you want.

So that square of movement would be lost, pushing you back into the last space you were.

Yan
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2010 - 5:24AM #128
SirBrettski
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2007
Posts: 44
I think Blurred step would cause you to lose 1 square of shifting.

In order for any kind of movement to actually happen you need to decide where you're going. Interrupts, as I understand them, have two features

-they take place AFTER you DECIDE what to do
-they take place BEFORE you ACTUALLY do it

This is why players use interrupts as responses to actions even though they may never actually take place in the game world. You can't really be interrupted unless you've actually decided and commited to a course of action.

And you can't really decide to shift without choosing a square.

A common experience when I have while playing looks like this:

A: I do this
B: I can use an interrupt when you do that
A: Oh... I forgot you could do that
B: Do you still want to do that then?
A: Not really, can I do something else instead?
B: sure

I think anyone playing with reasonable people have had this experience. Interrupts aren't a "rewind" as some people describe them. They just take place when someone commits to taking the action.

I don't see how someone can argue that they've decided to shift, but have not decided which square to shift to. You haven't really decided to shift then, have you?
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2010 - 7:02AM #129
Galkasaur
Date Joined: Jun 3, 2009
Posts: 2,058

Apr 17, 2010 -- 3:43AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

Ok. After looking into it again, i came to a different conclusion. Only fools don't change their mind ...

If a Trigger contains a destination with a movement and another one none, they aren't suppose to happen at different time when Interrupted. I know movement interrupted happens before they move, wether it's Combat Challenge or Blurred Step interrupting a Shift, the situation is the same, just different outcome. The enemy is still adjacent when jumping in.

Now, knowing Interrupts should all happen at the same timing, i hardly see why then one could Interrupt knowing where the enemy is going and not the other. For this reasons, i believe that if you started moving and get Interrupted, this whatever the Move Action, everyone will be able to acknowledge where you are going and where will be your next step. I didn't find anything specifying this in the Rules for Speed, Shift, Walk or other movement, but i assume that when you start to leave a square, it's to enter another even if you're interrupted before resolving your movement and leaving your actual square.

Now going with this, i think the Rules on Occupied Squares should prevail, resulting in an invalid movement being occupied by a creature you can't enter into (taken that it is not Helpless or two Size smaller or larger than you) and the move would end in the last square you could occupy legally. And if you had more than 1 square of movement remaining when Shifting (Strike and Move, Long Step etc.), you'd be allowed to continue Shift wherever you want.

So that square of movement would be lost, pushing you back into the last space you were.

I'm not 100% sure I understand your reasoning, however, it's good to see you change your mind =)