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Switch to Forum Live View Dirty Deeds... Done Dirt Cheap: The Rogue's Handbook
3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2010 - 7:37AM #31
Estlor
Date Joined: May 11, 2009
Posts: 305
[minor hijack]

Is anyone else of the mindset that if so many skills (etc) are gold... gold as a rating tool is cheapened to the point where you should take everything down a step and stick to the red-purple-black-blue-sky blue theme.

I mean, yeah, I get it.  Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery... they're all important to a rogue.  But gold is like, I don't know, this is TEH BEST EVAR!!!, and it just becomes overkill.  Especially for skills (stealth, thievery) you're forced to take.  You're a rogue.  You have to have them.  Dex is your primary stat.  You have to boost it.  Ergo, you're always good at those.  Are they then truly gold?  If they are, that tells me I should go out of my way to spend additional resources to boost them.  Stealth is gold for a cunning sneak, yes, but is it really gold for an artful dodger?  How about a brutal scoundrel?  It's nice yes, but so good I should go out of my way to be better than the best at it?  No.

Also, does making a class's primary stat gold really mean anything?  "Boost this every chance you can get," yes, but the fact that all my powers are Dex vs XYZ and do + Dex mod damage will tell me that on its own.

I don't know.  Personal preference, but gold is way overused on this board these days.  Gold means everyone should always take this no matter what because you're a foold not to.  Gold means this is better than everything else, almost to a game-breaking level.

[/minor hijack]

Nothing personal, LDB.  You do good, thorough work.  It's just like some of your initial ratings are so given to hyperbole with all the gold that it becomes meaningless.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2010 - 7:57AM #32
Awesomologist
Date Joined: Sep 24, 2009
Posts: 1,825

Mar 31, 2010 -- 7:10AM, Armisael wrote:

*Debates whether to shoot Awesomologist or give him a cookie*

...Ah, what the hell. for you!



Yay! Cookies!

Mar 31, 2010 -- 7:37AM, Estlor wrote:

[minor hijack]

Stuff about gold rating

[/minor hijack]



While not specific to this issue, yes Gold should be used sparingly. Like for Acrobatics, all it really does is reduce falling damage and provide access to skill powers, which are mostly weaker versions of powers Rogues already have. Athletics is a more useful skill in game just out of sheer utility.

Host of the HTL Podcast Series: http://www.holdtheline.com/media/category/htl-podcast.6/
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2010 - 8:01AM #33
Mengu74
Date Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 3,232
For the skills, I actually can see a rogue without acrobatics (maybe a dragonborn or goliath). And for hybrid rogues, I can see leaving out either stealth or thievery. So for what it's worth, sky blue is probably more appropriate as a top rating for skills.

Edit: We're picking nits here though. Who really cares what the rating is for a skill, you get what you think you'll use more of. This stuff can be highly campaign specific. Skill ratings are the one rating I pay the least attention to in these handbooks. I do sometimes look at them if I can't decide what to pick for my last skill, to see if I've missed some obvious benefit, like the note on needing intimidate for rattling.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2010 - 8:08AM #34
Sefrit
Date Joined: Aug 27, 2009
Posts: 172
Given the utility powers that require training in Acrobatics to select, I'd say a gold rating for Acrobatics is appropriate. Those requiring Acrobatics are some of the best utility powers the class has.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2010 - 8:18AM #35
AlphaAnt
Date Joined: Aug 18, 2007
Posts: 737
No Acrobatics, no Combat Tumbleset. Rogues have 13 Utility Powers and 13 Attack Powers that require Acrobatics. Good enough for Gold for me.
Yes, I am a defender apologist.
A Rock and a Hard Place: A Warden Handbook
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2010 - 8:18AM #36
Sefrit
Date Joined: Aug 27, 2009
Posts: 172
For those curious, the following Rogue class powers require training in Acrobatics to select:

Fox's Gambit - Encounter 1
Handspring Assault - Daily 1
Acrobatic Strike - At-Will 1
Acrobati's Blade Trike - Encounter 1
Hop Up - Utility 2
Tumble - Utility 2
Darting Strike - Encounter 3
Surefooted Retort - Daily 5
Sidestep Stance - Utility 6
Vault Position - Utility 6 (also requires Athletics)
Ignoble Escape - Utility 6
Slice Free - Encounter 7
Sneaky Roll - Utility 10
Combat Tumbleset - Utility 10
Ceartain Freedom - Utility 10
Close Quarters - Utility 10
Ripple Effect - Daily 15
Defensive Roll - Utility 16
Tumbling Strike - Encounter 17
Escape Artist's Gambit - Encounter 17
Somersault Dodge - Utility 22
Wall Crawl - Utility 22 (also requires Athletics)
Dazzling Acrobatics - Utility 22
Reaching Blade - Daily 25
Acrobatic Assault - Daily 25
A murder of One - Daily 29
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2010 - 8:38AM #37
lordduskblade
Date Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 8,387
OK, comments! Let's address them.

@CriticalBastard: No problem.

@Tygell: It looks solid, but 11 Constitution sets off the squishiness alarms in my head. 6 healing surges is a bit too low for a Striker IMHO. I'd be looking at Con 12, Wis 12, Cha 14.

@Awesomologist: Hey, an image gallery sounds like a great idea. I'll probably shuffle things around to accomodate it (I likely don't need 2 posts for Sample Builds). I'll probably do the same thing with the Warlord. Thanks!

@Awesomologist, Mengu74: Also, don't forget that a lot of Utility powers on the Rogue's own list require training in certain skills. Therefore, Acrobatics becomes more important because a lot of mobility Utilities use it. For example, you can't take Ignoble Escape if you don't have Acrobatics, and you can't take Fleeting Ghost if you don't have Stealth, and I consider these prime powers. Ignore skills at your own peril as a Rogue.

@Ytterbium_Dragon: My initial thoughts exactly. However, my debates with Litigation yesterday had him providing multiple reasons why there was really no reason at all to select the class feature from an optimization point of view: severe MAD (Dexterity for attack/damage rolls, Strength for the Ruthless Ruffian rider, Con 19 for Bludgeon Mastery, Charisma for some other riders and minor effects).

To boot, you spend all that work carefully crafting your Ruthless Ruffian, only to see a Bastard Sword Rogue (or any other Rogue, really) spank you in the DPR department. To top it all off, the Ruthless Ruffian doesn't have a monopoly on Rattling powers: anyone who picks them up and has the Intimidate skill trained can hand out the -2 to hit. It's strictly worse than the other options, frankly.

@Estlor: It's a matter of taste, really. I think the things that are rated Gold are done so to make sure you know that I consider them very important. If you already knew that, more power to you: I still consider it important to repeat it.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2010 - 8:43AM #38
LinkGaetz
Date Joined: Sep 9, 2009
Posts: 88

I'm not sure why an AD would bother to take piercing strike. Unless you know the monster has a low (< AC - 2) reflex the DPR difference from sly flourish is minimal. Besides, once you hit paragon the Deft Blade feat makes piercing strike completely worthless.


I'd rather take acrobatic strike, which received an unfairly low rating in the last handbook. Shifting one square before or after attacking makes it typically more useful than even an unbuffed deft strike for a melee-focused rogue. If you're two squares away from an enemy you can usually charge it anyways. And unless you're immobilized or have some reason not to want to shift, it's strictly more useful than clever strike.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2010 - 8:48AM #39
Caeric
Date Joined: Jun 16, 2007
Posts: 1,677
Heh. I didn't know you made this already. I just made a brief imploring post in the other Rogue guide. Well, anyway.

Thanks for doing this. I don't suppose you'd be interested in implementing that idea I proposed for your Fighter or Warlord guide some month or two ago? Where I suggested you put something like:

Power Name: Description. Blah blah blah.
Artful Dodger | Brutal Scoundrel | Cunning Sneak | Ruthless Ruffian


Remember that? Even if you don't, I suggest you use it. Whenever you want to add "oh, and this power works well with this magic item or this combo," you can instead just add those words as sort of "keywords" with a rating beneath the power's rating in superscript. What say you?

Also, consider giving Flash of the Blade some small special blurb in one of the opening sections, because taking that feat definately is a defining choice for how your rogue plays. There are a couple feats like that, I think, otherwise.

I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2010 - 9:03AM #40
Kharanax
Date Joined: Jun 3, 2001
Posts: 197
I find myself preferring Clever Striker to Acrobatic strike. Using a shift to get into a flanking position may frequently place your rogue in greater danger than just attacking.

Furthermore, some monsters (often soldier-types) will punish shifts kind of like a fighter.

Clever strike lets you deal your damage safely from right beside the tank, where the tank can use their powers to protect you more easily, and reduces your exposure.

In case you need multiple shifts (or shifting multiple squares), there are plenty of rogue powers that include or grant shifts on a per-encounter base.

Acrobatic Strike would make a nice 4th at-will (rated dark blue, IMHO), but I would not place as strictly better than Clever Strike (dark blue or sky blue) because Clever Strike reduces your level of exposure, and shifting one square won't guarantee you combat advantage against Large or larger targets, whereas Clever Strike simply requires another ally adjacent to the target.
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