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This is the bomb!!!!

In an effort to make this read easier, I've put together the following description of Summon Spirit Companion.  It combines information from Conjuration, Summon Spirit Companion, associated rules, and this FAQ.

Please critique.



• Effect: You conjure your spirit companion in an unoccupied square in the burst. The spirit lasts until you fall unconscious, until you dismiss it as a minor action, or until you use this power again.

• Occupies 1 Square:  Enemies cannot move through its space, but allies can, though they cannot stop there.  Spirit is a Conjuration:  Not an Ally, Enemy, or Creature.  Thus it cannot Flank or be Flanked, provoke Opportunity Actions, etc.    Does not provide Cover.
Occupied Space: If you don’t have enough movement remaining to reach a square you are allowed to be in, your move ends in the last square you could occupy.
Standing Up: If your space is occupied, you can shift 1 square, as part of this move action, to stand up in an adjacent unoccupied space. If your space and all adjacent squares are occupied, you can’t stand up.

• Unaffected by the Environment: Terrain and environmental phenomena have no effect on the conjuration. The conjuration does not need to be supported by a solid surface, so it can float in the air.

• Your Defenses: Your conjuration can be attacked or physically affected, it uses your defenses. The spirit can be targeted by melee or ranged attacks (as if it was a creature), although it lacks hit points. If a single melee or ranged attack deals damage to the spirit equal to 10 + one-half your level or higher, the spirit disappears, and you take damage equal to 5 + one-half your level. Otherwise, the spirit is unaffected by the attack.  Unless an attack specifically targets conjurations, only the attack’s damage (not including ongoing damage) affects the conjuration.

• Attacking with a Conjuration: You make the attack. Powers with the Spirit Keyword determine line of sight and line of effect from the conjuration, as if you were in its space.  If you are Marked, Prone, Dazed, etc. attacks through the Spirit are penalized.  Retribution effects for Marks will affect the Caster if the Spirit attacks.

• Movable Conjurations: When you take a move action, you can also move the spirit a number of squares equal to your speed.  At the end of your turn, the movable conjuration ends if you are not within range of at least 1 square it’s in (using the power’s range) or if you don’t have line of effect to at least 1 square it’s in. When you move a conjuration, you can’t move it through blocking terrain.  If you are Slowed, the Spirit can only move 2 as well.  If you are Immobilized, you may still take a Move Action to move the Spirit your normal Speed.  If you Run, you move your Speed +2, the Spirit moves your Speed.

• Death Ends: If you die, the conjuration ends immediately.

Oct 18, 2010 -- 8:38AM, Dougansf wrote:

In an effort to make this read easier, I've put together the following description of Summon Spirit Companion.  It combines information from Conjuration, Summon Spirit Companion, associated rules, and this FAQ.

Please critique.



• Effect: You conjure your spirit companion in an unoccupied square in the burst. The spirit lasts until you fall unconscious, until you dismiss it as a minor action, or until you use this power again.

Strike the "or until you use this power again."  New errata states you cannot use this power if your companion is present.

Occupied Space: If you don’t have enough movement remaining to reach a square you are allowed to be in, your move ends in the last square you could occupy.
Standing Up: If your space is occupied, you can shift 1 square, as part of this move action, to stand up in an adjacent unoccupied space. If your space and all adjacent squares are occupied, you can’t stand up.

Not sure why you are including this information here.  What does this have to do with conjurations?

• Death Ends: If you die, the conjuration ends immediately.

Kinda redundant, considering first bullet states it goes away when unconscious, (unless someone can figure out how to be conscious and dead at the same time).

Oct 18, 2010 -- 9:35AM, wizarddude wrote:

Oct 18, 2010 -- 8:38AM, Dougansf wrote:

In an effort to make this read easier, I've put together the following description of Summon Spirit Companion.  It combines information from Conjuration, Summon Spirit Companion, associated rules, and this FAQ.

Please critique.



• Effect: You conjure your spirit companion in an unoccupied square in the burst. The spirit lasts until you fall unconscious, until you dismiss it as a minor action, or until you use this power again.

Strike the "or until you use this power again."  New errata states you cannot use this power if your companion is present.

Occupied Space: If you don’t have enough movement remaining to reach a square you are allowed to be in, your move ends in the last square you could occupy.
Standing Up: If your space is occupied, you can shift 1 square, as part of this move action, to stand up in an adjacent unoccupied space. If your space and all adjacent squares are occupied, you can’t stand up.

Not sure why you are including this information here.  What does this have to do with conjurations?

Because the spirit companion occupies its space.  This information is relevant for any enemies who happen to fall unconscious and have a spirit companion summoned on top of them.

• Death Ends: If you die, the conjuration ends immediately.

Kinda redundant, considering first bullet states it goes away when unconscious, (unless someone can figure out how to be conscious and dead at the same time).

Revenant Shaman ... although, technically, they still die but they remain conscious when they drop to 0 hp and they can be built to remain conscious until they fail (up to) 5 death saving throws.

Oct 18, 2010 -- 8:38AM, Dougansf wrote:

• Occupies 1 Square:  Enemies cannot move through its space, but allies can, though they cannot stop there.  Spirit is a Conjuration:  Not an Ally, Enemy, or Creature.  Thus it cannot Flank or be Flanked, provoke Opportunity Actions, etc.    Does not provide Cover.
Occupied Space: If you don’t have enough movement remaining to reach a square you are allowed to be in, your move ends in the last square you could occupy.
Standing Up: If your space is occupied, you can shift 1 square, as part of this move action, to stand up in an adjacent unoccupied space. If your space and all adjacent squares are occupied, you can’t stand up.

Quote from compendium:
Ending Movement: You can end your movement in an ally’s square only if  the ally is prone. You can end your movement in an enemy’s square only  if the enemy is helpless.

So you could stand on a prone ally, if you want to give him/her a free shift, when he stands up. Just remember that the SC is not your ally, so you cannot put it into a square of a prone (and conscious) ally.

Oct 18, 2010 -- 8:38AM, Dougansf wrote:

• Unaffected by the Environment: Terrain and environmental phenomena have no effect on the conjuration. The conjuration does not need to be supported by a solid surface, so it can float in the air.

The SC cannot fly, but it can move horizontally and vertically, without a solid surface, says Dragon 387.

Oct 18, 2010 -- 8:38AM, Dougansf wrote:

• Your Defenses: Your conjuration can be attacked or physically affected, it uses your defenses. The spirit can be targeted by melee or ranged attacks (as if it was a creature), although it lacks hit points. If a single melee or ranged attack deals damage to the spirit equal to 10 + one-half your level or higher, the spirit disappears, and you take damage equal to 5 + one-half your level. Otherwise, the spirit is unaffected by the attack.  Unless an attack specifically targets conjurations, only the attack’s damage (not including ongoing damage) affects the conjuration.

"Your Defenses" includes temporary bonuses and penalties, which is in opposition to summonings (which do not benefit from temporary bonuses and penalties you have). For example, the SC has +2 to all defenses against ranged attacks against enemies not adjacent to the shaman, if the shaman is prone.

Notes:
*The SC cannot be effected by conditions directly.
*So even if the shaman is prone, the SC does not count as being prone and does not grant CA to melee attacks.
*SC also cannot be pushed, pulled or slided.

Oct 18, 2010 -- 8:38AM, Dougansf wrote:

• Movable Conjurations: When you take a move action, you can also move the spirit a number of squares equal to your speed.  At the end of your turn, the movable conjuration ends if you are not within range of at least 1 square it’s in (using the power’s range) or if you don’t have line of effect to at least 1 square it’s in. When you move a conjuration, you can’t move it through blocking terrain.  If you are Slowed, the Spirit can only move 2 as well.  If you are Immobilized, you may still take a Move Action to move the Spirit your normal Speed.  If you Run, you move your Speed +2, the Spirit moves your Speed.

Movable Conjurations: When you take a move action [...]
This also includes all powers, that are of the type move action (even if you don't actually have the option to move, like when standing up). But you cannot move the spirit, if you convert your move action into a minor action (even if you use a power, that let's you move in any way).

Oct 18, 2010 -- 8:38AM, Dougansf wrote:

• Death Ends: If you die, the conjuration ends immediately.

@undrhil: "Dying" is not the same as "Death". So the spirit  should still be present, as long as a revenant shaman below 0 HP is  still conscious. Besides, there are other ways to stay conscious while  below 0 HP. I think there's a skill utility power that does something  similar (could be LV 16 endurance).
Or is there a way to stay conscious, while you are actually dead (below half bloodied value or failed 3 death saves)?

Has anyone verified that the OA rules still apply post-essentials?

As far as i know, the rules about conjurations have not changed. The only thing new, is the errata to "call spirit companion", that you cannot use that power while the spirit is still present. So the spirit still does not provoke OAs.

Also remeber that the spirit is not a creature, so the only actions it can take, are those described under "conjuration" (none) and in the power "call spirit companion". So the only legal way to move the spirit is while the shaman moves himself.

In other words, the spirit cannot shift, climb, swim, etc.. So unless they change this, it would be ineffective if the SC provoked OAs (or it could be abused to waste enemy OAs on the SC, sothat the shaman himself or other allies move some enemies).

Nov 7, 2010 -- 8:25AM, Locksley wrote:

Has anyone verified that the OA rules still apply post-essentials?

While I don't think the rules have changed for OAs, there are a couple things which matter for the Spirit Companion's opportunity action. Post essentials, "leaving a square" is defined to include forced movement, specifically "willing or unwilling."  (Rules Compendium, p. 200).

Normally forced movement does not fulfill the trigger for opportunity actions (Rules Compendium, p.212). However, the Spirit's Wrath power is an opportunity action with a trigger of "An enemy leaves a square adjacent to your spirit companion without shifting." Given the above definition, a case could certainly be made that forced movement would satisfy the trigger for that opportunity action because that specific power trumps the general rule.

Now, I don't think that's what the designers intended, but the power could be read that way due to the specific use of the words "leaves a square" combined with the definition. I don't think that it's out of keeping to make the call in this case that forced movement wouldn't satisfy the trigger based on this intent, but the English major in me does have to admit that the other side is a valid reading of the rules as such.

Thoughts? 

Nov 9, 2010 -- 4:27AM, NomadMWE wrote:

Nov 7, 2010 -- 8:25AM, Locksley wrote:

Has anyone verified that the OA rules still apply post-essentials?

While I don't think the rules have changed for OAs, there are a couple things which matter for the Spirit Companion's opportunity action. Post essentials, "leaving a square" is defined to include forced movement, specifically "willing or unwilling."  (Rules Compendium, p. 200).

Normally forced movement does not fulfill the trigger for opportunity actions (Rules Compendium, p.212). However, the Spirit's Wrath power is an opportunity action with a trigger of "An enemy leaves a square adjacent to your spirit companion without shifting." Given the above definition, a case could certainly be made that forced movement would satisfy the trigger for that opportunity action because that specific power trumps the general rule.

Now, I don't think that's what the designers intended, but the power could be read that way due to the specific use of the words "leaves a square" combined with the definition. I don't think that it's out of keeping to make the call in this case that forced movement wouldn't satisfy the trigger based on this intent, but the English major in me does have to admit that the other side is a valid reading of the rules as such.

Thoughts? 

That's more or less the same as the pre-Essentials rules on Move.  However, in the previous ruleset, there was a bullet under Forced Movement stating forced movement doesn't provoke OA's.  (I don't have RC to verify that exception is still there, but I'd be very surprised if it weren't.)

Nov 9, 2010 -- 5:30AM, Tichrimo wrote:

That's more or less the same as the pre-Essentials rules on Move.  However, in the previous ruleset, there was a bullet under Forced Movement stating forced movement doesn't provoke OA's.  (I don't have RC to verify that exception is still there, but I'd be very surprised if it weren't.)

It's still in there, just in a slightly different location.

I think the issue that I've heard on this is that specific trumps general - and in this case, the specific power stating "leaves a square" as a trigger, where "leaves a square" has a specific definition including forced movement, well.

Like I said, it's probably not what was intended (and if I were running the game, I wouldn't have an issue making the call that forced movement wouldn't trigger that power) - if the wording was "moves without shifting" I don't think the issue I've heard about would be there.

Nov 9, 2010 -- 5:41AM, NomadMWE wrote:

Nov 9, 2010 -- 5:30AM, Tichrimo wrote:

That's more or less the same as the pre-Essentials rules on Move.  However, in the previous ruleset, there was a bullet under Forced Movement stating forced movement doesn't provoke OA's.  (I don't have RC to verify that exception is still there, but I'd be very surprised if it weren't.)

It's still in there, just in a slightly different location.

I think the issue that I've heard on this is that specific trumps general - and in this case, the specific power stating "leaves a square" as a trigger, where "leaves a square" has a specific definition including forced movement, well.

Like I said, it's probably not what was intended (and if I were running the game, I wouldn't have an issue making the call that forced movement wouldn't trigger that power) - if the wording was "moves without shifting" I don't think the issue I've heard about would be there.

By that logic, wouldn't normal OA's also be triggered by forced movement?  

Nov 9, 2010 -- 5:52AM, Tichrimo wrote:

By that logic, wouldn't normal OA's also be triggered by forced movement?  

Good call!

...I mean, I know what the player of the Shaman will say in response, but that's pretty much the logic I needed to be able to feel completely comfortable in my argument. Thanks!

An opportunity action is not an opportunity attack.  Opportunity action in and of itself has no pre-defined trigger.  An opportunity attack otoh is a specific subset of opportunity actions that everyone can take.  Opportunity attacks, not opportunity actions, have the specific trigger (an adjacent enemy makes a ranged or area attack or leaves an adjacent square) that explicitly exempts forced movement, shifting, and teleportation.

Having said this, In RC (p 212) Forced Movement has the bullet: "No Opportunity Actions triggered: When a target is pulled, pushed, or slid, it does not trigger opportunity actions, such as opportunity attacks, that are triggered by movement."

In RC (p 214) teleportation also has the bullet: "No Opportunity Actions triggered: When a target teleports it doesn't provoke opportunity actions, such as opportunity attacks, that are triggered by movement."

The shaman's opportunity action features ARE triggered by enemy movement.  So while teleportation and forced movement also involve an enemy leaving a square adjacent to the spirit companion, they shouldn't trigger per the above RAW.  I think a strong indication for RAI also exists based on previous errata to Agile Opportunist feat and Spitting Cobra Stance power from Opportunity Action triggers to Immediate Reaction triggers. 

Unlike opportunity actions, there is no prohibition in Rules Compendium to immediate actions being allowed to trigger from forced movement or teleportation (which is why Agile Opportunist and Spitting Cobra Stance do not violate RAW).  But immediate actions are only permitted once per round, and less abusable as such.

I don't play a Shaman myself (or have summoning capabilities), so my apologies if the answer to this question is self-evident. The description of Call Spirit Companion says "The spirit lasts until you fall unconscious or until you dismiss it as a minor action." however like other summoned creatures, the spirit companion disappears when the encounter is over, correct? Naturally it would be beneficial to already have the spirit companion in place on the battlefield before the combat begins (in case the Shaman rolls a poor initiative) however we've been playing such that the spirit companion disappears at the end of encounters (even though the Shaman was never unconscious nor was the spirit dismissed) and cannot make its appearance on the battlefield until the Shaman's first turn.

Nov 12, 2010 -- 2:55PM, HandsomeP wrote:

I don't play a Shaman myself (or have summoning capabilities), so my apologies if the answer to this question is self-evident. The description of Call Spirit Companion says "The spirit lasts until you fall unconscious or until you dismiss it as a minor action." however like other summoned creatures, the spirit companion disappears when the encounter is over, correct? Naturally it would be beneficial to already have the spirit companion in place on the battlefield before the combat begins (in case the Shaman rolls a poor initiative) however we've been playing such that the spirit companion disappears at the end of encounters (even though the Shaman was never unconscious nor was the spirit dismissed) and cannot make its appearance on the battlefield until the Shaman's first turn.

The SC is not a summoning, but a conjuration. While this does not influence the answer to your question, it's an important distinction.
There's no reason, why the SC would disappear at the end of combat (unless the shaman dismisses it or the DM say so). As you already pointed out, "call spirit companion" makes no mention of the end of combat. And even if the SC would disappear at the end of combat, nothing stops the shaman from re-calling him outide of combat. In that way, call spirit companion is similar to some of the wizards cantrips (light or mage hand), which can also be used outside of combat, because they don't require you to attack an enemy.

Just be aware, that most civilians don't really like ghosts, so it might be a good idea to not call it inside towns or cities, outside of combat.

Suppose you have two SCs out via Summon Spirits.  If you cast Healing Spirit, can the secondary heal be doubled by affecting targets adjacent to (or near, if you have the feat) each SC?

Thanks,

..Ron

With Spirit Summons it should apply to both SCs and I think it would be fine to apply the extra healing to two different PCs or maybe heal the same PC twice if the SCs were both next to him.

The power states "When an effect applies to creatures adjacent to your spirit companion, that effect applies to creatures adjacent to both spirit companions."  The extra healing is listed as part of the effect of healing spirit.  "Effect: The target can spend a healing surge. If the target does so, one ally adjacent to your spirit companion, other than the target, regains 1d6 hit points."

I read this quote in another post referring to the rules compendium, "A close power's range rarely matters. If it is ever relevant, the number given for the size also functions as the range"  Can someone confirm that and give me a page number so I can put up a final update to the spirit companion range question?

Page 103.

For the first time, i found a way to have the SC shift:

Shifting Spirit

Updated the movement entry:
Q: How fast does my SC move?  Can it Shift?  What happens  when I am slowed?  What happens if I am immobilized?  What about  difficult terrain?

A: It moves up to your move speed  when you take a move action.  It probably can not shift normally (no  rule says it can), but for the most part that does not matter since it  does not provoke OA (there is a feat that lets githzerai's spirits  shift, when they shift).  If you are slowed, you movement drops to 2 and  therefore your SC can only move 2.   Immobilization does not cause you  to loose your move actions and technically does not reduce your  speed, so you should be able to move it, but ask your DM.  Page 220 of  PHB2 says conjurations are not effected by difficult terrain.

And thanks DybrarH, I checked that page in the book store a couple of days ago

Nov 9, 2010 -- 5:52AM, Tichrimo wrote:

By that logic, wouldn't normal OA's also be triggered by forced movement?  

Not at all. The rules on OAs, movement and forced movement are all general rules.  Under normal circumstances, they are how you would rule something.

Specific rules were made to bypass general rules, so the powers could have the effect and flavor that was intended. The wording on the Spirit Companion's OA trigger is intentionally worded differently than the wording of provoking.

If they did not intend the Spirit Companion's OA to be triggered on forced movement, then they should errata the power and remove the trigger of "leaves a square without shifting" and replace it with "moves without shifting". This would bring it in line with normal OAs, with the exception of not triggering from "using ranged attacks while adjacent to the SC".

I updated the flanking question to include cover.

Q: Can my SC flank or provide cover?

A: Not normally because it is not an ally.  The power stalker's strike let it flank, which implies that it normally can't flank.  The power (Massive Companion) and feat (Stone Heart Spirit) let it provide cover, which again implies it normally does not.

Nov 23, 2010 -- 9:36AM, Arkarian wrote:

Nov 9, 2010 -- 5:52AM, Tichrimo wrote:

By that logic, wouldn't normal OA's also be triggered by forced movement?  

Not at all. The rules on OAs, movement and forced movement are all general rules.  Under normal circumstances, they are how you would rule something.

Specific rules were made to bypass general rules, so the powers could have the effect and flavor that was intended. The wording on the Spirit Companion's OA trigger is intentionally worded differently than the wording of provoking.

If they did not intend the Spirit Companion's OA to be triggered on forced movement, then they should errata the power and remove the trigger of "leaves a square without shifting" and replace it with "moves without shifting". This would bring it in line with normal OAs, with the exception of not triggering from "using ranged attacks while adjacent to the SC".

In both cases, for forced movement orteleportation, the rule is that the  target doesn’t provoke opportunity actions for leaving its starting position.  I don't see the trigger of call spirit companion as overriding that.  (If it were an override, they'd need to specifically say "...even if this movement normally doesn't provoke opportunity actions..." or something similar.)

P.S.  Your proposed errata wouldn't actually clarify anything, since "move" means "leaving one square to enter another": we'd be in more or less the same quandry. 

Nov 23, 2010 -- 10:02AM, Tichrimo wrote:

In both cases, for forced movement orteleportation, the rule is that the  target doesn’t provoke opportunity actions for leaving its starting position.  I don't see the trigger of call spirit companion as overriding that.  (If it were an override, they'd need to specifically say "...even if this movement normally doesn't provoke opportunity actions..." or something similar.)

P.S.  Your proposed errata wouldn't actually clarify anything, since "move" means "leaving one square to enter another": we'd be in more or less the same quandry. 

This power is not a creature. It does not threaten. Enemies can't provoke OAs from it, or else they would provoke when using ranged attacks while adjacent to it.

 It is an at will conjuration. It follows the rules for damage from conjurations and zones. Wall of Fire deals damage to adjacent creatures "at the start of their turn", but since it's a higher level daily it's automatic. Call Spirit Companion deals damage on a trigger, "leaves a square without shifting" and only after a sucessful attack roll.

This attack roll also uses your opportunity attack against that target for the turn. It was balanced with multiple limiters to prevent it from being too powerful as a 1st level at will class feature. Without the use of your OA against that target you could recieve multiple attacks, whenever the target was moved adjacent to the SC and then moved away.

As for my wording, oh well, it was bad. The power does needs to be clarified though, if it's not the designers intent to trigger off forced movement and teleportation. Either that or leave it as it is and tell people it works. 

Nov 23, 2010 -- 12:24PM, Arkarian wrote:

Nov 23, 2010 -- 10:02AM, Tichrimo wrote:

In both cases, for forced movement orteleportation, the rule is that the  target doesn’t provoke opportunity actions for leaving its starting position.  I don't see the trigger of call spirit companion as overriding that.  (If it were an override, they'd need to specifically say "...even if this movement normally doesn't provoke opportunity actions..." or something similar.)

P.S.  Your proposed errata wouldn't actually clarify anything, since "move" means "leaving one square to enter another": we'd be in more or less the same quandry. 

This power is not a creature. It does not threaten. Enemies can't provoke OAs from it, or else they would provoke when using ranged attacks while adjacent to it.

 It is an at will conjuration. It follows the rules for damage from conjurations and zones. Wall of Fire deals damage to adjacent creatures "at the start of their turn", but since it's a higher level daily it's automatic. Call Spirit Companion deals damage on a trigger, "leaves a square without shifting" and only after a sucessful attack roll.

This attack roll also uses your opportunity attack against that target for the turn. It was balanced with multiple limiters to prevent it from being too powerful as a 1st level at will class feature. Without the use of your OA against that target you could recieve multiple attacks, whenever the target was moved adjacent to the SC and then moved away.

As for my wording, oh well, it was bad. The power does needs to be clarified though, if it's not the designers intent to trigger off forced movement and teleportation. Either that or leave it as it is and tell people it works. 

One more crack at this: since using spirit's wrath/fangs/etc. is an Opportunity Action, it follows the general rules for Opportunity Actions, meaning (amongst other things) it is not triggered by forced movement or teleportation.  Since spirit's wrath/fangs/etc. does not specifically override those general rules, they are assumed to be in play when adjudicating the trigger.

Opportunity Actions have no inherent triggers. The spirit OA triggers on leaving a square in general, minus shifting which has no immunity to OAs. Teleportation is a specific type of movement which specifically does not trigger OAs that would occur for leaving a square. If that does not make it prevent the OA from leaving a square adjacent to a spirit, what could it apply to?

Hi guys. I'm a new D&D player and I happened to pick the Shaman class. This forum has been very useful for learning how the shaman works. I just have a couple of questions that could use clarification.

Do I need line of sight on the space where I summon my SC or does it just need to be within 20 squares? For instance if I'm on an elevated platform, can I summon the SC in a space below the platform that I cannot see? My DM would not let me do this.

Do I need to maintain line of sight with my SC to keep it from disappearing or can I move it behind walls or move myself behind walls without it going away? I'm assuming my DM thinks the spirit would disappear, but I don't think it should have to disappear.

Thanks! 

Hi Beldbearhand, welcome to the forums!

Your DM is partially right. Whenever you use a power, you must have at least line of effect to the target(s) (except the power says otherwise). See page 273 of PHB (players handbook 1) for more info about LoS (line of sight) and LoE (line of effect). I guess this is also somewhere in the RC (rules compendium), but i don't know where.

So you cannot call your SC below a platform you stand on.

What happens if the spirit moves out of range (20 squares) or out of sight? That's determined by the "conjuration" keyword, the power "Call Spirit Companion" has. So you can move your SC below the platform and attack (see "spirit" keyword, most shaman power have) targets there, during your turn. But as soon as your turn ends, your SC disappears, if it's still out of range and/or out of LoE.

See page 1 of this FAQ for rule sources, regarding the keywords.

It says the spirit companion occupies a square and enemies cannot move through it.  However, can Huge enemies move through it (possibly provoking Spirit Shield) since they're two size categories larger?  Our Shaman just asked this and I ruled yes, they can since it's implied that the companion is Medium, but I'd like other opinions.

@Siegfried: That's an interesting question, never thought about that. Creatures can move though enemies spaces two size categories larger or smaller than themselves (with OAs), but the spirit is not creature. It's a conjuration, that occupies one square. So i guess rules wise, the huge creature couldn't pass through the spirits space, because it's not an enemy (as with all non-creatures).

Though as DM i would rule, that it's possible.

Question from me: Think of a half-elf shaman (WIS 18), with the new racial power Knack for Success.

Spoiler: Show

Isn't it a bit overpowered if such a shaman uses knack for success and speak with spirits, to gain +8 to any skill check (as two minor actions) starting at LV 1?

Thread necromancy!

I have a strange situation... Odds are, one of the players of the PbP game I'm running elsewhere reads this forum, so if it's you... STOP READING! :P

...

Anyway, here's the situation: Party has a shaman that likes to send his SC as sort of a forward scout, ahead of the rest of the group, just in case something jumps out at it (most of the enemies haven't been particularly bright so far, so they may not tell the difference between the ghost-like SC and a real threat).

So the shaman summons the SC to position "A" and asks it to move to position "B". Problem is that, along the way and including position "B", there's an illusory floor and a deep pit (which has not been detected by the party... yet). If something falls through it, the illusion does remain.

So it's a definite loss of Line of Sight, and an arguable loss of Line of Effect, so by my understanding of the rules that would make the SC disappear if it did in fact fall through the floor.

Questions then relating to this:

1) Does it fall? My understanding is that an SC could fly since it's not a "real" creature. If the shaman isn't aware of the environment, and isn't aware that a "real" creature would fall under those circumstances, and the creature has no senses of its own, does it know that it should fall or does it simply walk across the surface because it thinks its solid?

2) How would this actually look? SC falls through the floor and... nothing? Or does it simply blink out? Does it walk over the ground as if it was solid? Does it refuse to move?

3) When an SC blinks out, how much does the shaman know about the circumstances regarding that? In the above example, would the shaman know that the SC began to fall, fell out of view and blinked out, or does he simply know that something happened... but isn't sure what?

Jan 1, 2011 -- 8:23PM, DLIMedia wrote:

Thread necromancy!

I have a strange situation... Odds are, one of the players of the PbP game I'm running elsewhere reads this forum, so if it's you... STOP READING! :P

...

Anyway, here's the situation: Party has a shaman that likes to send his SC as sort of a forward scout, ahead of the rest of the group, just in case something jumps out at it (most of the enemies haven't been particularly bright so far, so they may not tell the difference between the ghost-like SC and a real threat).

So the shaman summons the SC to position "A" and asks it to move to position "B". Problem is that, along the way and including position "B", there's an illusory floor and a deep pit (which has not been detected by the party... yet). If something falls through it, the illusion does remain.

So it's a definite loss of Line of Sight, and an arguable loss of Line of Effect, so by my understanding of the rules that would make the SC disappear if it did in fact fall through the floor.

Questions then relating to this:

1) Does it fall? My understanding is that an SC could fly since it's not a "real" creature. If the shaman isn't aware of the environment, and isn't aware that a "real" creature would fall under those circumstances, and the creature has no senses of its own, does it know that it should fall or does it simply walk across the surface because it thinks its solid?

2) How would this actually look? SC falls through the floor and... nothing? Or does it simply blink out? Does it walk over the ground as if it was solid? Does it refuse to move?

3) When an SC blinks out, how much does the shaman know about the circumstances regarding that? In the above example, would the shaman know that the SC began to fall, fell out of view and blinked out, or does he simply know that something happened... but isn't sure what?

As per the rules for Conjurations, the spirit companion is not affected by environmental stuff, so it would just move over the illusory floor as if it was a solid floor.  The shaman would get no indication that there is anything amiss.

When a spirit companion goes away, I don't think the shaman gets any real info from that, aside from "the spirit companion has dispersed" or something.  There is a Shaman utility power that allows the spirit companion to move farther than 20 squares from the shaman and allow the shaman to sense things from the spirit companion's square.

Spoiler: Show

I agree with undrhill.  The SC would not fall because SCs can move vertically and is not subject to the environment according to published materials.  Whether or not the SC could report back what is going on, I would assume no because the default assumption is it can not make skill checks or report back to the shaman, but it is a DM call.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. This should prove interesting...

If the shaman shifts as a move action, can the spirit companion move it's full speed?  It seems that it could, but an alternate ruling could only allow the SC to move 1.

Jan 3, 2011 -- 8:45AM, sobchak wrote:

If the shaman shifts as a move action, can the spirit companion move it's full speed?

It can move your full speed because of the wording of call spirit companion: "When you take a move action, you can also move the spirit a number of squares equal to your speed." Speed is defined in PHB1 as the potential number of spaces your character "can move up to" (page 283).  Shifting does not reduce your speed, just like chosing to have the shaman move just one square does not reduce its speed.

Jan 3, 2011 -- 10:10AM, GelatinousOctahedron wrote:

Jan 3, 2011 -- 8:45AM, sobchak wrote:

If the shaman shifts as a move action, can the spirit companion move it's full speed?

It can move your full speed because of the wording of call spirit companion: "When you take a move action, you can also move the spirit a number of squares equal to your speed." Speed is defined in PHB1 as the potential number of spaces your character "can move up to" (page 283).  Shifting does not reduce your speed, just like chosing to have the shaman move just one square does not reduce its speed.

Similarly, effects that do reduce the shaman's speed (e.g. you get Slowed) would reduce the spirit's speed (to 2, in this example).

Thank you both.  I wanted to make sure I understood this correctly before I start gently prompting our shaman to move more.

Well, the SC does not provoke OAs, so he also cannot shift, only move "normally". So it does make sense, to move it up to it's speed and not just one square.

Added two new questions.  The first because some emailed a request that I add it and I saw it in a thread below:

Q: Can a shaman see through a Spirit Companion's Eyes?

A: Even though you determine line of sight for spirit powers through the SC, RAW nothing says you can actually see through the spirit. The power roaming mind, roaming spirit is an exception since it lets you perceive things the spirit can.

This second one I added because I was rereading call forth the spirit world and was confused by the use of the term destroyed.

Q: What does it mean for the spirit companion to be "destroyed"?

A: A couple of powers (call forth the spirit world and spirit of destruction) mention the spirit companion being "destroyed" and when that happens the boost the power gives goes away for the rest of the encounter.  The power call spirit companion only says the spirit companion can be "dismissed" (shaman is unconscious or voluntarilty dimisses it) or that it "disappears" when it takes enough damage.  A few powers like spirit infusion also make the SC disappear.  The feat retributive spirit says a spirit is destroyed by another creature as well, so I infer the authors mean that detroying a SC means dealing enough damage to make it disappear, not voluntarily dismissing it.  So powers like call forth the spirit world still remain effect after using powers like spirit infusion.   Ask your DM. 

Feb 24, 2011 -- 7:43AM, GelatinousOctahedron wrote:

Q: What does it mean for the spirit companion to be "destroyed"?

A: A couple of powers (call forth the spirit world and spirit of destruction) mention the spirit companion being "destroyed" and when that happens the boost the power gives goes away for the rest of the encounter.  The power call spirit companion only says the spirit companion can be "dismissed" (shaman is unconscious or voluntarilty dimisses it) or that it "disappears" when it takes enough damage.  A few powers like spirit infusion also make the SC disappear.  The feat retributive spirit says a spirit is destroyed by another creature as well, so I infer the authors mean that detroying a SC means dealing enough damage to make it disappear, not voluntarily dismissing it.  So powers like call forth the spirit world still remain effect after using powers like spirit infusion.   Ask your DM.

To make matters worse (for the Shaman,) each time they use a power that "destroys" the SC, the Shaman will take 5 + 1/2 level damage.

If an elemental spirit shaman calls his SC adjacent to a warforged/shardmind ally, has the feat "spirit of vigor" and wears "Reparation Aparatus" and grants the THP to him, does he also get the 2d6 addtional THPs from the aparatus?

Updated the can SC fly question because of an updated PHB2 FAQ.

Q; Can my SC fly?

A: Pretty much.  The PHB2 FAQ now says you can summon the SC midair. 
It can float and does not need to be supported by a solid surface.  The Dragon 387 article on shamans states:  "This means when it moves, it ignores difficult terrain and can move vertically and horizontally."  When  the shaman first came out customer service used to say no you can't  move it above ground very consistently, but it looks like that the  current official position is that you can summon and move it in the air  with no problem.

Apr 15, 2011 -- 4:44PM, GelatinousOctahedron wrote:

Updated the can SC fly question because of an updated PHB2 FAQ.

Q; Can my SC fly?

A: Pretty much.  The PHB2 FAQ now says you can summon the SC midair. 
It can float and does not need to be supported by a solid surface.  The Dragon 387 article on shamans states:  "This means when it moves, it ignores difficult terrain and can move vertically and horizontally."  When  the shaman first came out customer service used to say no you can't  move it above ground very consistently, but it looks like that the  current official position is that you can summon and move it in the air  with no problem.

Cool, thanks for the info. Took them liek 2 years to clear this issue...?

Here's one.  With Spirit Summons you can have to SCs out there at the same time.  When the Shaman spends a move action can they then move both SCs or just one of them at a time?

Jun 12, 2011 -- 2:51PM, RedSiegfried wrote:

Here's one.  With Spirit Summons you can have to SCs out there at the same time.  When the Shaman spends a move action can they then move both SCs or just one of them at a time?

Yes.  The power says that while you have multiple spirit companions, if you do something which applies to your spirit companion, it applies to both spirit companions.  If you make an attack through your spirit companion, you have to choose which spirit companion that attack is done through.

So, if you have two spirit companions out and you use Healing Spirits, then an ally adjacent to each spirit companion gets the extra healing (meaning, two allies can get the healing or, one ally can get double-healing from being next to both spirit companions.)

Jun 12, 2011 -- 6:27PM, Undrhil wrote:

Jun 12, 2011 -- 2:51PM, RedSiegfried wrote:

Here's one.  With Spirit Summons you can have to SCs out there at the same time.  When the Shaman spends a move action can they then move both SCs or just one of them at a time?

Yes.  The power says that while you have multiple spirit companions, if you do something which applies to your spirit companion, it applies to both spirit companions.

Thanks for answering, but I don't see where either Spirit Summons or Call Spirit Compansion say anything like this at all.  Spirit Summons says that:
 
1. when you attack with a spirit power you choose which SC to use for the attack
2. when an effect applies to creatures adjacent to your SC, that effect applies to creatures adjacent to both SCs. 

There is nothing that says that when you do anything that applies to your SC that it then applies to both SCs.  To infer this from the sparse description of the power is a big jump in logic.  Take it a step further.  Does that mean if I move one SC six squares to the northwest that the other one also has to move six squares to the northwest?  If I dismiss one of the SCs do I then have to dismiss the other one?

Your example about the use of Healing Spirit is correct as far as I know though.

To be fair, my question is probably unanswerable ... I couldn't find anything anywhere in any book that would come close to answering it.  But opinions are appreciated.

A couple places in this thread it is stated that a Spirit Companion can't grant Combat Advantage because CA is a 'condition'.  Looking at the list of conditions (RC p229) it doesn't look like CA actually is a condition like Blind, Dazed, etc.

So my question: if a power causes a target to grant combat advantage will it work against the SC?  Here's a specific real example from a monster:

Flitter (move; at-will)
The monster moves up to 4 squares, gains a +4 bonus to AC against opportunity attacks, and gains combat advantage against any target
that it ends its move adjacent to.

So if the monster uses Flitter and ends up adjacent to a SC, will it have combat advantage against it when it makes a melee attack?

Thanks in advance!    

   

Jun 30, 2011 -- 6:25PM, ecla wrote:

A couple places in this thread it is stated that a Spirit Companion can't grant Combat Advantage because CA is a 'condition'.  Looking at the list of conditions (RC p229) it doesn't look like CA actually is a condition like Blind, Dazed, etc.

So my question: if a power causes a target to grant combat advantage will it work against the SC?  Here's a specific real example from a monster:

Flitter (move; at-will)
The monster moves up to 4 squares, gains a +4 bonus to AC against opportunity attacks, and gains combat advantage against any target
that it ends its move adjacent to.

So if the monster uses Flitter and ends up adjacent to a SC, will it have combat advantage against it when it makes a melee attack?

Thanks in advance!    

   

Actually, no.  The SC has specific rules for when a power is used against it.  Is the power a ranged or melee attack?  If so, then the power may continue.  If not, then the power is ignored by the SC.  It does not take status effects or other effects from a power unless the power specifically targets conjurations or the spirit companion directly.

At the same time, though ... Flitter isn't targetting the SC.  The effect of the power is on the monster using it.  Notice that it says that the monster *gains* combat advantage against the target.  If it had said that the target grants combat advantage, then it wouldn't work, but the way it's worded, I think it actually would cause the monster to have combat advantage against the SC. 

I am going to read up on the rules comendium tonight and see if I can put a more up to date answer for combat advantage and the SC.

You cannot have combat advantage against the SC, because it is not a creature and even if you have CA against the shaman, it does not provide any benefit against the SC, because does not modify the shaman's defenses.

Jul 1, 2011 -- 9:05AM, crayne wrote:

You cannot have combat advantage against the SC, because it is not a creature and even if you have CA against the shaman, it does not provide any benefit against the SC, because does not modify the shaman's defenses.

Where do the rules say that only creatures can grant CA?  Besides, as I said in my previous post, the power is not making the SC grant CA, it is allowing the monster to *gain* CA against the SC.  There's a difference.

Hm you're right. CA is not listed as condition and the compendium entry about CA is not written in a way, that it could not be applied to the SC. If it was a condition, than it would be rather on the attacker as a positive effct, that the SC.

In Flitter's case it still does not work, because the power the monster uses is neither melee nor ranged, so the spirit is not a valid target for it. But another power, like the following should work: "minor action, melee 1: You gain combat advantage for your next attack against the target."

I reread the sections on conjurations and combat advantage in the rules compendim and it looks like the revised language is very clear that spirit companions grant CA when flanked.  The RC only makes references to targets granting CA, not creatures or anything similar.  The CA is something a creature gets against a "target". 

The exceptions are powers and effects that cause the target to grant CA don't work (you can't daze one, a shaman dazed doesn't make the SC grant CA, powers that says "target grants ca until EONT" wouldn't cause it, etc.).  I don't think you can do a bluff check on a spirit companion to make them grant CA aince that would be an opposed insight check and they can't make skill checks.

Okay.  I am probably being very blind and not seeing this either in the rules or in this thread.  I get that the spirit can be targetted by melee and/or ranged attacks.  I also understand how much damage they can take from that single attack before disappearing.  What I can't find is...

What are the spirit's defenses against these attacks?  Are they automatically hit by attacks of the appropriate type?

edit: p.s. Please reference where the rule is on this so I can explain it to others with the same question.

edit #2: NEVER MIND.  I did a bit more reading on the thread and found where my question was already asked and answered.

Hello,

There's a coiuple things I couldn't find in the FAQ.

Can both the SC and PC move in the same turn/action? If so, how much can they each move?
Can either/both attack if each moves in the same turn/action?

Nov 28, 2011 -- 9:18AM, koolking wrote:

Hello,

There's a coiuple things I couldn't find in the FAQ.

Can both the SC and PC move in the same turn/action? If so, how much can they each move?
Can either/both attack if each moves in the same turn/action?

When the shaman takes a move action (the shaman follows the same rules for move actions as any other adventurer), the SC can move up to the shamans speed (it does not provoke OAs, because it's not a creature). The shaman can choose to move 0 squares, if he only wants to move his SC. COnverting a move to a minor action does NOT allow the SC to move because this does not count as taking a move action.

The SC is a puppet, controlled by the shaman, it's not a creature. It cannot act by itself, so the shaman is always the one who attacks. The question is just, from which square his attacks originate. All of his powers without the spirit keyword originate from his square, while those with the spirit keyword originate from the spirit's. The spirit cannot take actions like any kind of basic attack, grab or bull rush becuase they don't have the spirit keyword.

Nov 28, 2011 -- 10:38AM, crayne wrote:

Nov 28, 2011 -- 9:18AM, koolking wrote:

Hello,

There's a coiuple things I couldn't find in the FAQ.

Can both the SC and PC move in the same turn/action? If so, how much can they each move?
Can either/both attack if each moves in the same turn/action?

When the shaman takes a move action (the shaman follows the same rules for move actions as any other adventurer), the SC can move up to the shamans speed (it does not provoke OAs, because it's not a creature). The shaman can choose to move 0 squares, if he only wants to move his SC. COnverting a move to a minor action does NOT allow the SC to move because this does not count as taking a move action.

The SC is a puppet, controlled by the shaman, it's not a creature. It cannot act by itself, so the shaman is always the one who attacks. The question is just, from which square his attacks originate. All of his powers without the spirit keyword originate from his square, while those with the spirit keyword originate from the spirit's. The spirit cannot take actions like any kind of basic attack, grab or bull rush becuase they don't have the spirit keyword.

So I can move them both in the same action if I move one 2 squares and the other 4 (if I understand what you're saying correctly)? And after that, my Shaman can attack once either through himself or through his SC--correct?

Nov 28, 2011 -- 1:52PM, koolking wrote:

So I can move them both in the same action if I move one 2 squares and the other 4 (if I understand what you're saying correctly)? And after that, my Shaman can attack once either through himself or through his SC--correct?

That's partially correct.

About moving. Whenever the shaman takes a move action he can move the SC his speed. It does not matter what kind of move action he takes (for example walk, run, shift or standing up), he can always move the SC up to his speed. Most adventurers have speed 6, so you can always move him 6 squares (it does not matter how far you move). But note, that the run move action does not increase your speed by two, it let's you move your speed +2. So if the shaman runs, he can only move the SC his speed, not his speed +2.

Regarding attacks. Most shaman attack powers are standard actions, so you can choose to either attack yourself or your spirit. But it does not matter wether you attack first, or move first. Also, if your SC is not present, you can call him in a close burst 20 as minor action. So you don't need to move him, if you can call him adjacent to an enemy.

You could even attack an enemy 27 squares away from you, if you call your SC at max range (20 squares away from you) then take a move action where the SC moves 6 more squares away from you and then attacks. In this case the spirit will disappear at the end of your turn however, because he is out of range. But this does not damage you. You only take damage from the SC's disappearance, if he was destroyed by an attack.

Nov 29, 2011 -- 4:02AM, crayne wrote:

Also, if your SC is not present, you can call him in a close burst 20 as minor action. So you don't need to move him, if you can call him adjacent to an enemy.

Clarification on this: if your SC is NOT PRESENT, you can summon him anywhere within 20 squares of you. Minor action.

If your SC is already present, you can't just re-summon him. You have to first dismiss him (minor action). This is an update to the original printed rules, because teleporting your SC up to 40 squares as a minor action was deemed to be too powerful. So now it takes two minor actions.

I updated the section of conditions to make it more clear the PC is acting through the spirit.  I also updated the following two questions to explain that mc shamans can't take nimble spirit.  And that if the spirit is not present at the beginning of the turn, animist shamans can summon the spirit as a minor action, dismiss it, and then resummon it as a free action that same turn.

Q: So what's the deal with the feats Sudden Call (PP) and Nimble Spirit (PHB2)?

A: They used to be pretty much the same, but they issued errata to make sudden call work only 1/encounter, so you should retrain it to nimble spirit in paragon.  See page 267 of the PHBs for a full explanation of free actions.   And you can only summon your SC during your turn with or without these feats.  The other main difference is that mc shamans can't take nimble spirit, while hybrid and pure shamans can take both nimble spirit or sudden call.

Q: When can I summon my SC?

A: Only during your turn.  Either it takes a minor action which has to be on your turn or it if you have a feats like sudden call or nimble spirit, it is a free action on your turn.  Animists can summon it as a free action during their turn if it was not present at the beginning of the turn.  You can also ready an action to summon it on a trigger, but that will be the only action you can do since readying an action only grants you one action.  MC shamans always need a standard action to summon the spirit unless they take sudden call.

I've asked this in a different thread, but I think it'll be more appropriate here.

The character that I have chosen is the Shaman.  While analyzing the Shaman paragon paths, I was interested in the 'Stormcaller,' which states: 

"Whenever an enemy makes an attack against your spirit companion, that enemy takes lightning damage equal to your Wisdom modifier. If the attack causes your spirit companion to disappear, the enemy takes 5 extra lightning damage and is dazed until the end of your next turn."

The question that I have is if this power is in effect during burst or blast attacks made on my SC? 

Also, if my SC is floating above my allies, would this still qualify as being adjacent to them?

The last question deals with my 'Protector Spirit' class which states:

"Ally adjacent to spirit companion gains hit points equal to your Con mod with second wind or your healing power."

I was wondering, if I use the 'Healing Spirit' encounter power , and both companions are adjacent to my spirit companion, does it mean both allies gain "hit points equal to your Con mod" as per 'Protector Spirit?  If not, which ally gains the hit points?

The spirit companion ignores bursts and blasts, so it would not trigger that path feature.

The ally gaining Tue benefit of your protector feature has to be the one targeted by your healing power, or the one who spends the second wind.

Jan 21, 2012 -- 11:44AM, ritymeez wrote:

Also, if my SC is floating above my allies, would this still qualify as being adjacent to them?

Your ally is adjacent to your SC if it's in the same square, or if it's in an adjacent square. Two squares are adjacent if they share at least one corner.

These rules work just the same in 3D. So if the top northeast corner of one square is also the bottom southwest corner of another square, those two squares are adjacent.

It's fun to park your SC one square above an enemy. That enemy can't move without drawing an attack from you, and when your melee allies go after it they get bennies.

I know that enemies can't move through the SC, but can the SC move through enemies?

Also, if I take the feat below, would I be able to mark w/ my SC?

Defender of the Wild [Multiclass Warden]
Benefit: You gain training in one skill from the warden’s class skills list.
Once per encounter as a free action, you can mark each enemy adjacent to you until the end of your next turn.

Jan 27, 2012 -- 1:15PM, ritymeez wrote:

I know that enemies can't move through the SC, but can the SC move through enemies?

That isn't directly and explicitly answered...

The spirit occupies its square. If it moves through a square occupied by an enemy, for some brief time they both occupy the same square. There are pretty severe restrictions on things occupying the same square so I would say - in the general case - no.

But that's my interpretation. Not necessarily RAI let alone RAW.

Also, if I take the feat below, would I be able to mark w/ my SC?

Defender of the Wild [Multiclass Warden]
Benefit: You gain training in one skill from the warden’s class skills list.
Once per encounter as a free action, you can mark each enemy adjacent to you until the end of your next turn.

Your spirit companion is not you; the feat does not say you can mark adjacent to your spirit companion. So that feat, by itself, does not give you the power to mark adjacent to your spirit companion.

You can only use powers with the "spirit" keyword through the SC. Anything else (like feats) must explicitly state, that it must or can originate from the SC.

I agree with warrl's answer.  Its not explicit, but I think the answer is no, it can't go through enemy occupied squares.  It can go over or around them with no problem if there is an empty space next to the enemy.  A normal monster could block a doorway for instance if it was only 1 square cube entrance.

Jan 30, 2012 -- 9:19AM, GelatinousOctahedron wrote:

I agree with warrl's answer.  Its not explicit, but I think the answer is no, it can't go through enemy occupied squares.  It can go over or around them with no problem if there is an empty space next to the enemy.  A normal monster could block a doorway for instance if it was only 1 square cube entrance.

From what I gathered, SC can move vertically, but does not have a flying speed, therefore, they should not be able to go up and over an opponent then, right (unless I'm totally misuderstanding something)?

They never said that explicitly can "fly" or really laid out the rules that clearly for this.  It does not need to be supported by a solid surface and they did a shaman article in dragon 387 that said. "This means when it moves, it ignores difficult terrain and can move vertically and horizontally." I take that to mean it can move horizontally after it has moved vertically if you want it to.

CS used to say it couldn't move through the air long before that article came out, but that dramatically lowers that shaman's effectiveness at higher levels if you can't move it around in the air.  Plus it can be trivially easy for some shaman builds (particularly animists) to summon the spirit companion to a different spot every round without using any extra actions so its not like letting it move in the air breaks anything.  So RAI i think you can move it like it was "flying".

Thanks.  That's very helpful.

Can a spirit companion see inside of an allies Cloud of Darkness. Since it isn't a creature it would seem that the effect line would not apply to it. The reason I ask is if the SC got opportunity attacks and could see in the cloud he could help attack people who try to exit the cloud, which is a permanent cloud sustained each round. That would be a help in doing damage inside the cloud. BUT .. I would imagine I need line of sight to summon my creature to a position inside the cloud, if so I could summon him outside the cloud and command him to go inside and next to someone maybe?

Suggestions on this combo? 

Jan 31, 2012 -- 12:13AM, MeleeECI wrote:

Can a spirit companion see inside of an allies Cloud of Darkness. Since it isn't a creature it would seem that the effect line would not apply to it. The reason I ask is if the SC got opportunity attacks and could see in the cloud he could help attack people who try to exit the cloud, which is a permanent cloud sustained each round. That would be a help in doing damage inside the cloud. BUT .. I would imagine I need line of sight to summon my creature to a position inside the cloud, if so I could summon him outside the cloud and command him to go inside and next to someone maybe?

Suggestions on this combo? 

The spirit companion is a Conjuration.  As such:

• Yes, you can summon it inside your ally's cloud of darkness. 
• Yes, its opportunity action can be triggered and used.  (Only the Opportunity Attack action has the "must be able to see the target" proviso; your spirit companion's Opportunity Action doesn't have that limitation).

Well, you have no line of sight from the Shaman into the cloud is the problem.

Jan 31, 2012 -- 10:19AM, MeleeECI wrote:

Well, you have no line of sight from the Shaman into the cloud is the problem.

The spirit companion Opportunity Action powers all have a trigger "a creature adjacent to the spirit companion moves away without shifting".  No LOS required there.  

So the shaman takes the -5 penalty for attacking someone with total concealment, as I said.

The spirit keyword says "If a spirit power includes “spirit” in its range, determine line of sight and line of effect from the spirit companion’s space, which is the power’s origin square." 

So it works differently than normal conjurations, even though it is a conjuration.  All of the opportunity action attacks have the spirit keyword, so for all of them you determine line of sight from the spirit companion. 

The line of sight is still blocked and the squares are still totally obscured, so your attack gets a penalty.  Also unlike PCs in the area, the spirit companion can't be blinded since its not a creature.

So, I have another question.  If I multiclassed as an invoker and got the daily power below, do attacks made on the SC cause the attacker to recieve 5 psychic damage also?

Fourfold Invocation of Doom

As you speak the four verses of doom, your foes wilt in fear, their enthusiasm for the battle doused.

Daily        Divine, Fear, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action      Close burst 10

Target: Each enemy in the burst

Attack: Wisdom vs. Will

Hit: The target is dazed (save ends).

Miss: The target is dazed until the end of your next turn.

Effect: Until the end of the encounter, any creature that hits or misses you takes 5 psychic damage.

No because you are not your companion.  Its a conjuration.

Feb 2, 2012 -- 2:59PM, GelatinousOctahedron wrote:

No because you are not your companion.  Its a conjuration.

What if the SC was destroyed, will the effect affect the attacker then?

No.  You still were not hit or missed by an attack.  Your spirit companion was.

You are not your spirit companion.

Feb 2, 2012 -- 3:30PM, thespaceinvader wrote:

No.  You still were not hit or missed by an attack.  Your spirit companion was.

You are not your spirit companion.

Likewise, if you were injured by an aura effect, or an enemy attack that does not have an attack roll, the creature causing the damage did not hit or miss you and likewise takes no retributive damage.

Feb 2, 2012 -- 2:35PM, GelatinousOctahedron wrote:

The spirit keyword says "If a spirit power includes “spirit” in its range, determine line of sight and line of effect from the spirit companion’s space, which is the power’s origin square." 

So it works differently than normal conjurations, even though it is a conjuration.  All of the opportunity action attacks have the spirit keyword, so for all of them you determine line of sight from the spirit companion. 

The line of sight is still blocked and the squares are still totally obscured, so your attack gets a penalty.  Also unlike PCs in the area, the spirit companion can't be blinded since its not a creature.

I'm not 100% confident in my statement here, but I believe that while the SC cannot be blinded, if the Shaman is blinded, it would still apply the penalty.  While Line of Sight is coming from the SC, the SC has the same vision abilities as the Shaman.

Apr 8, 2010 -- 7:54AM, warrl wrote:

Apr 8, 2010 -- 3:56AM, crayne wrote:

Mechanically, the spirit does not have a will of it's own, so it's just a puppet controlled by the shaman.

Fluff-wise... our shaman's Spirit Companion is opinionated and stubborn. The two of them argue frequently. (On the other hand, the SC is rather amused by how much the appearance of a "ghost" terrifies most of the locals folks.)

I loe this kind of thing SO hard.  :D

This came up in a LFR game on Friday and I got shot down by the DM.  I wanted to run it through here to see what everyone else thought.

The mod we went through includes a "Siege Tower" which is a huge "creature".  It is an enemy, though, so I said that since I put my spirit companion in front of it, the siege tower would have to go around the spirit companion.  The DM said that since the siege tower is a huge creature, it could still move through the spirit companion.  I pointed out that the spirit companion power specifically says enemies cannot enter its square and the DM said he didn't care, he wasn't going to let me break the mod that easily.  And he continued to have the siege tower move forward.

I looked at the stat block afterwards and realized that the power he used couldn't have targetted the spirit companion (since it isn't a creature, and the power specifically says "creature whose square the tower moved through") but the DM never read out the power so I couldn't call him on that one, so that's 12 points of damage my Shaman shouldn't have taken.)

Anyway, I'm not interested in the first part of this post: can a huge enemy move through a spirit companion, even though the spirit companion power says that enemies cannot move through it's square?

SvG. Normally everything can walk through a Conjuration. SC says Enemies cannot go through the SC's square.

Though the attack might also work by RAW, if it was melee or ranged... most walkthrough attacks are melee.

Question:

I took the "Phrenic Master" paragon path.  It has an encounter power called "Minion's Shield" that reads:
Trigger: You take damage from an attack while your spirit companion is adjacent to you.
Effect: Your spirit companion takes the damage instead of you.

I was wondering if the shaman will still take the effect of an attack power (e.g. daze)?  Also, is this considered a "miss" attack.

Jun 30, 2012 -- 11:29AM, ritymeez wrote:

Question:

I took the "Phrenic Master" paragon path.  It has an encounter power called "Minion's Shield" that reads:
Trigger: You take damage from an attack while your spirit companion is adjacent to you.
Effect: Your spirit companion takes the damage instead of you.

I was wondering if the shaman will still take the effect of a attack power (e.g. daze)?  Also, is this considered a "miss" attack.

Yes.
No.

How do the Wilden racial powers work with the SC?  

"Trigger: A bloodied enemy attacks you or your ally adjacent to you" 

Does the word "you" count as my SC or is it litterally the shaman only? 

Jul 7, 2012 -- 6:45AM, Mechanize wrote:

How do the Wilden racial powers work with the SC?  

"Trigger: A bloodied enemy attacks you or your ally adjacent to you" 

Does the word "you" count as my SC or is it litterally the shaman only? 

Shaman only. Conjurations are not you and are not an ally.

It seems like there was a thread detailing the issues with the SC's damage thresholds post-MM3. Does anybody remember that thread? Opened with a neat chart showing how the threshold went up over 30 levels pre-MM3, and post, and suggested a few fixes.

I can't for the life of me find it 

Jul 12, 2012 -- 2:41PM, Cohen95 wrote:

It seems like there was a thread detailing the issues with the SC's damage thresholds post-MM3. Does anybody remember that thread? Opened with a neat chart showing how the threshold went up over 30 levels pre-MM3, and post, and suggested a few fixes.

I can't for the life of me find it 

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Okay, I'm having a question about the power Spirit Infusion.  It allows an ally to attack an enemy with bonuses, and as it doesn't really have an action, I was wondering if I could use it on an unconcious ally.

By strick RAW yes since the enabled melee basic attack use no action and an unconscious creature can use powers that use no action.

It probably not intended though. The Power Commander's Strike was also like that before it was updated to let the melee basic attack as a free action, for this very reason. So expect possible DM objections. 

Sep 16, 2012 -- 8:09PM, Sderg wrote:

Okay, I'm having a question about the power Spirit Infusion.  It allows an ally to attack an enemy with bonuses, and as it doesn't really have an action, I was wondering if I could use it on an unconcious ally.

If your DM objects to it, describe it as your spirit companion animating the ally's body just long enough to make the attack.  DMs might look more favorably upon using it on stunned allies, though. 

The ally is still attacking from prone, even with the bonus, that's a -2 penalty to the attack roll right there.  But if the DM objects, that's final. 

so the rules say that the spirit can be damaged by melee or ranged attacks - so what are the spirit's defenses?
 

Dec 3, 2012 -- 7:45PM, clipinski wrote:

so the rules say that the spirit can be damaged by melee or ranged attacks - so what are the spirit's defenses?
 

The spirit companion has the same defenses as the Shaman, minus any temporary bonuses or penalties.  There are some feats and items which can increase the spirit companions defenses as well.

That's why my Shaman|Warlord wears Plate armor. 

Silly questions: You can move both the shaman and his spirit companion in the same turn, right? So a shaman can use his move action to move himself AND his companion?

Also, say my shaman and companion are 10 squares away. For a power like twin panthers, is that attack through my shaman or through my companion or through both? I am actually a bit confused whether shamans can use any attack through their companions.

Feb 13, 2013 -- 2:28PM, JS20 wrote:

Silly questions: You can move both the shaman and his spirit companion in the same turn, right? So a shaman can use his move action to move himself AND his companion?

Also, say my shaman and companion are 10 squares away. For a power like twin panthers, is that attack through my shaman or through my companion or through both? I am actually a bit confused whether shamans can use any attack through their companions.

When you take a move action, you can move your spirit compantion up to your speed as well.

When you use a power with the 'spirit' keyword, that power is used through your spirit companion (which means the spirit companion has to be on the battlefield, within 20 squares of your Shaman, and with line of effect to your spirit companion.   

On that note: do you have the Players Handbook 2?  Reading the class in the book is a good step towards knowing how it works and playing it correctly.  Just making a character in the character builder doesn't help much.  You can also look up the keywords in the online compendium.  (Spirit, in this case.)

You are still considered to be using the power and any penalties to attack and damage, etc. apply as normal.  You are making the attack, not your spirit companion.  But the origin square is your spirit companion and you draw line of sight and line of effect for the attack from the spirit companion.   

By the way, if anyone wants to build a lazy striker, try a shaman or warlord hybrid warlock and take the astral ascendent PP. You can now let other allies attack and give them your striker extra damage (radiant warlock's curse).