1) What is the sequence of this power? Is it Attack-Teleport- Damage (if hit target)-ongoing damage to adjacent enemies? Or is it Teleport-Attack-Damage (if hit target)-ongoing damage to adjacent enemies.?

2) Can you choose to not take the effect?

It would be cool if I could decide whether i wanted to teleport first and attack or choose not to teleport at all.

Thanks in advance for the help!

In general, a  power's steps occur from the top down; so, first you teleport (if you want), then you attack and, if successful, perform the hit line, then every enemy adjacent to you gets ongoing damage.

Any power that enables you to move or teleport, you can always choose to move/teleport fewer squares than listed, including zero.

Awesome! Thanks Salla for the quick reply! As always this forum rocks!

Mar 22, 2010 -- 6:51PM, Salla wrote:

In general, a  power's steps occur from the top down; so, first you teleport (if you want), then you attack and, if successful, perform the hit line, then every enemy adjacent to you gets ongoing damage.

Whoa... what?  The teleport is not the first line of the power.  It's in the effect line between the attack and damage.  It's Target, Attack, Effect (teleport), Hit, Effect (ongoing).

The sequence is:
1: Target a creature within melee range
2: Attack said target
3: Effect line: teleport
4: Resolve damage to target (if any)
5: Cause ongoign damage to all enemies adjacent to you.

You even said to go top down and there's no teleport before the target and attack.

The effect: Teleport line is before the Hit line; you can't know if you use the Hit line until you attack, so it's Effect-Attack-Effect.

Just so everyone is on the same page.


Daily        Arcane, Teleportation, Thunder, Weapon
Standard Action      Melee weapon

Target: One creature

Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude

Effect: Teleport a number of squares equal to your Constitution modifier.

Hit: 2[W] + Intelligence modifier thunder damage.

Effect: Each enemy adjacent to you gains ongoing 5 thunder damage (save ends). 

If that is indeed the wording, i'm confused. Is it:

Target an enemy
Roll
Teleport
Check to see if the power hit
(Apply damage if it hit)
Damage adjacent enemies?

Put another way, what exactly does the "Attack: Int vs. Fort" line do in terms of the stack of plates? 

Going by the flavor "As you pass unseen through dimensional space, you leave in your wake a thunderous roar that bombards enemies upon your arrival." I think you are supposed to attack someone in melee range, hit (or miss) them, teleport, and apply the 5 ongoing thunder damage to each adjacent enemy at your teleport destination.

It certainly is an oddly formatted power though (note it is ~20 issues old and therefore we might expect some inconsistencies). 

Yes, you target and roll to hit then teleport, then roll damage (if you hit).

It seems odd at first, but it can be handy against monsters that either do something when bloodied or drop to 0 because after you roll to hit you teleport away before dealing the damage.

Mar 22, 2010 -- 8:44PM, Salla wrote:

The effect: Teleport line is  before the Hit line; you can't know if you use the Hit line until you  attack, so it's Effect-Attack-Effect.

Sure you can.  You're not attacking someone who's at distance.  It's a melee range power.  You're attacking one target that you're within melee range of then teleporting and causing ongoing damage.  If you teleport before the attack, you are using the power wrong.

So, let us say you are adjacent to enemy 1, and within teleport range you can get adjacent to enemies 2-4.

The way the power works, you roll to hit 1, then teleport into the middle of 2-4.  If you hit you deal damage to 1, then cause ongoing damage to 2-4.

Are there ANY powers with effect lines above attack lines?

Silver Lightning Assault

Your body streaks like silver lightning to a foe, even one you can’t see. Reappearing, your lightning-charged weapon sears your foe.

Daily        Arcane, Lightning, Teleportation, Weapon
Standard Action      Melee weapon

Target: One creature

Effect: Before the attack, you can teleport 20 squares to a space that must be adjacent to the target. You do not need line of sight to your destination.

Attack: Intelligence vs. AC

Hit: 6[W] + Intelligence modifier lightning damage, and you can then teleport back to your original position.

Miss: Half damage.

Whirling Mantis Step

With swift steps and overwhelming leverage, you shove aside your foes and cripple them with vicious kicks.

Daily        Implement, Psionic
Standard Action      Melee touch

Effect: You shift your speed. If you enter a square adjacent to any enemy during this shift, you slide that enemy 1 square. You can slide each enemy only once during the shift. After the shift, make the following attack.

  Target: One, two, or three creatures

  Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude

  Hit: 2d10 + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is slowed (save ends).

  Miss: Half damage, and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn.

Guess it does go attack -> teleport -> damage -> ongoing.

Probably not what they intended, but it seems like an advantage for the most part.  Could be usefull for solo's who attack back on a hit.

Okay so I guess the majority feel its attack then teleport. So we're agreed on that.

Can I still choose whether or not i want to teleport at all?

Mar 23, 2010 -- 8:07AM, bydchon wrote:

Okay so I guess the majority feel its attack then teleport. So we're agreed on that.

Can I still choose whether or not i want to teleport at all?

Yes.
You can always move/teleport/slide/push/pull/shift less then a power specifies.  You could also just teleport in place.

It's attack (all steps), teleport, vulnerability.

If they intended it to be teleport, attack (all steps), vulnerability they messed up.  Which I strongly suspect is exactly what happened.

Hit is associated with Attack.  Target is also associated with Attack.  See page 269 in the PHB.  You run those steps when you get to the Attack line in a power (multiple times for multiple ranged/melee attacks if you play them sequential).  The order rules for reading a power can only refer to Attack lines and Effect lines.

Mar 23, 2010 -- 2:50PM, FitzNighteyes wrote:

It's attack (all steps), teleport, vulnerability.

Actually, you teleport before the damage.  So it isn't all steps.  You don't target, attack, hit, effect, effect.  You target, attack, effect, hit, effect.

Hit is associated with Attack.  Target is also associated with Attack.  See page 269 in the PHB.  You run those steps when you get to the Attack line in a power (multiple times for multiple ranged/melee attacks if you play them sequential).  The order rules for reading a power can only refer to Attack lines and Effect lines.

Page 269 only gives a general overview of the process of making an attack.  It doesn't make a rigid guideline of steps that have to be followed every time.  A power can add in an effect at any time and normal sequencing applies.  You could, conceivably, have a power that went effect, target, effect, attack, effect, hit, effect.  It'd be a mess, no doubt about that, but in such a power you wouldn't do effect, target, attack, hit, effect, effect, effect.  That doesn't follow the power's sequence.

Target can't be followed in order for the majority of powers that have a movement effect before the attack, so it's obviously not intented to be included in the "order of effects" rules.  Same for range.

I'll concede it's possible to make an argument that Hit and Attack can be seperated, but IMO the steps on Page 269 ARE meant to be applied for each Attack line in a power.  Aside from the posibility of multiple melee/ranged attacks, in which case iterating it for each one usually works.  Splitting off the Hit/Miss with Effects in the middle busts them, especially with movement.

If you make an attack roll, then move, then determine a Hit (as this power has done using your interpretation), you interrupt the attack and nullify your Hit.  Moving between step 3 and step 4 of the attack process negates the attack.

As soon as you see a movement effect between the attack line and hit line, you can immediately judge that there was a formatting error and it was supposed to be before the Attack or after the Hit.  In this case, I'd judge that it was supposed to be before the Attack.  Instead of asking "How does this power work?" the better question is "Where is the errata forum for Dragon Magazine powers?" 

If you look at the chart on page 269, what it shows are the various steps within a power.  It isn't all contained in the attack line.  The attack line of a power is just step 3 of that process which is the overall process of making an attack.

Also there's nothing in RAW that says movement between those steps negates the hit.  At least when it comes to powers, one should follow how the power is laid out.  Considering we haven't seen errata on this power yet, I have a feeling we're unikely to see it and that it is what it is.

Good power for that last hit on a Balor before it goes boom.   

Mar 23, 2010 -- 9:01PM, Dragon9 wrote:

If you look at the chart on page 269, what it shows are the various steps within a power.  It isn't all contained in the attack line.  The attack line of a power is just step 3 of that process which is the overall process of making an attack.

The Attack in a power is the steps on page 269, which then reference other data in the power description to resolve.  Step 3 is just rolling an attack roll, it isn't the Attack itself.

Powers only contain a few pieces of information which need to be resolved in order.  Target and Range are not a part of that, as they are only refered to once you start the steps to resolve any Attack (be it only one, primary, secondary, etc.)

Also there's nothing in RAW that says movement between those steps negates the hit.

It's under the description of immediate interrupts and reactions.

Mar 24, 2010 -- 12:20PM, FitzNighteyes wrote:

The Attack in a power is the steps on page 269, which then reference other data in the power description to resolve.

No, it's an attack, not the attack line.  There's two things referred to as an attack: an attack such as a power (such as DImensional Thunder, or magic missile, or a Melee Basic Attack) and there's attack as in the attack line of of a power which is the attack roll (Strength vs. AC, or vs. Will, etc.)

The Making an Attack chart on page 269 is referring to attack powers.  Step 1: Choose an attack.  You've already chosen an attack, how are you goign to choose another attack when you get the attack line of the attack power you are using?  The chart is a general reference on the steps taken to make an attack (using a power).  This is described in all the text preceeding the charet.

What you should be referring to for the attack line of a power is on page 57 in the "Reading a Power" section.

Mar 24, 2010 -- 3:21PM, Dragon9 wrote:

No, it's an attack, not the attack line.

There is plenty to show that those steps can be refering to an Attack line just as much as an individual attack.

But that's neither here nor there, even if the steps are for the individual attacks in the Attack, an attack isn't step 3.  An attack is all of the steps.  And since all the steps are part of an attack, which is part of an Attack, my point still holds true.  You still don't read the power as "range, target, attack, effect, hit, effect".  Range and target aren't used  until you get to an Attack ... or if you prefer, an individual attack within the Attack line.

As a result, you only need to consider Attack lines and Effect lines when determining the order things happen in.  The Hit line just tells you what happens when you are running the Attack or attack, just as the Target line does.

So as written, the best interpretation for the power is Attack (including damage if you hit), Effect, Effect.

Mar 24, 2010 -- 5:24PM, FitzNighteyes wrote:

But that's neither here nor there, even if the steps are for the individual attacks in the Attack, an attack isn't step 3.  An attack is all of the steps.

In reference to an attack power, yes it is all the steps.  In reference to the attack line, no.

You still don't read the power as "range, target, attack, effect, hit, effect".

Sure you do, because that's what the power description says.

Range and target aren't used  until you get to an Attack ... or if you prefer, an individual attack within the Attack line.

Not true.  Under the Reading a Power appendix (page 214 of player's handbook 3) in the Entries in a Power section for attack it says: "A power's attack entry specifies the ability score you use to make the attack, any special modifiers that apply to the attack roll, and which of the target's defenses you roll against."

That's it.  No reference to page 269 pf the PHB 1 and the chart contained there.  That is all the attack line in a power means.  It doesn't mean target, attack, hit/miss or the 5 step program of making an attack as referenced on page 269.  As a matter of fact, that definition of the attack line jibes with what I said earlier, that step 3 of that chart is the attack line.  The entry for Attack Roll on page 274 of the PHB 1 (in the 269 chart it is incorrectly listed as 273) spells out the same information.  As it says in the book, the chart on 269 of PHB1 is the "basic process."

The Entries in a Power section of PHB3 page 214 (where the Attack definition came from) even says the definitions are "presented in their typical order."  (emphasis mine)  IOW, that's the order they are typically in when you look at a power, but they may end up in a different order.  Specifically the case for Effect as in the Entries in a Power the Effect entry is listed after Miss, but in the sequence section of The Power Format it uses effect as an example saying "an Effect entry might appear above attack information in a power description to indicate that somehting happens before you make an attack."

With what you are saying that would be impossible because, according to you, the Target line is not part of the sequencing which is in direct conflict with pages 214-5 of PHB3.  Also, by what you are saying, the example of Effect in the Sequence section could not happen because that is "part of the attack line" (step 2 of the chart) so it would be impossible to Target then Effect then Attack.

So as written, the best interpretation for the power is Attack (including damage if you hit), Effect, Effect.

Again, incorrect.  The best interpretation of the power is as it is written.  Otherwise you are rewriting the power.  And your previous statement about immediate interrupts and reactions is irrelevant because this isn't an issue of using an II or IR power.  (I would have included that earlier but my 13 month old was getting into trouble when I was typing.  )

I don't see what's wrong with playing the power naively (attack - teleport - hit - effect).  Heck, it fits the flavour: (attack, then) "As you pass unseen through dimensional space, you leave in your wake (hit) a thunderous roar that bombards enemies upon your arrival (effect)".

Mar 24, 2010 -- 7:09PM, Dragon9 wrote:

Again, incorrect.  The best interpretation of the power is as it is written.  Otherwise you are rewriting the power.

If we run it with your interpretation, we break a whole host of melee striker and defender powers.  Many ranger, rogue, fighter and avenger powers no longer work in their intended manner, because you must meet the range/target requirements before you move to the target to attack it.  OTOH, my interpretation almost perfectly matches intent for almost all powers.  (At least until the new PHB3 Monk powers came out that have an Effect after the Attack that happens in between the attacks.  But those break all interpretations IMO and are probably a specific vs general argument.)

Edit: And as I've implied earlier in this thread, just because I think the rules very clearly are not designed to include the target/range in "orsder" of executeion of a power, that doesn't automatically preclude Hit from being treated as a seperate entity from Attack.  I certainly think it was never intended to be seperate, but that doesn't mean I'm right in guessing the intention. 

Keep in mind that allowing a power to be exceptional does not invalidate the general. It is perfectly reasonable to rule that power X does Y because Z without expanding the scope to include powers A, B and C by "inheritance."

(edit) Albeit is it unfortunate in those cases where Z is not spelled out as the reason since that leads to doubt as to whether it is an intentional exception or a mistake by the author.

I'd have to say that Fitz most likely has it right. If you read that the Hit and Attack lines are separate than the attack auto misses if you teleport out of melee range, you no longer have a valid target for the damage. Unless you want to be really odd and claim that you can attack target A and hit target B.

Read the other way, there is no difference in the effect of the power of having the effect line before or after the hit line. You either do indeed damage an initial target or you damage the initial target. Bloodied effects will need to be adjudicated by the DM, since most arent labled as IR or II to establish an order of finishing the power or setting off the BE.

Mar 25, 2010 -- 10:30AM, Marshall wrote:

I'd have to say that Fitz most likely has it right. If you read that the Hit and Attack lines are separate than the attack auto misses if you teleport out of melee range, you no longer have a valid target for the damage. Unless you want to be really odd and claim that you can attack target A and hit target B.

Or, more simply, you could say that Dimensional Thunder allows you to damage the target after you've attacked and teleported away because that's what its written to do. Just because Dimensional Thunder lets you do it doesn't me any other power/ability can.

Personally I think you could play it either way. I just don't like this line of reasoning that because nothing else can deal damage after you've moved away, that no power can ever deal damage after you've moved away and that this must be an error and isn't just an exceptional power. A wake, after all, is where you've been, not where you are.

I'd buy that except that the 'wake' effect attacks the destination targets not the departure area. If its the actual teleport wake that is doing damage than the attack line should be after the effect : teleport anyway.

More than 2 years later... has there been any consensus on this?

For me it doesn't make any sense to have Attack and Hit separated. So I'm guessing it was a typo that the Effect got trapped in between attack and hit...

I haven't find any FAQ or Errata on this power, so the main question remains... shall the teleport happen before or after the attack?
What's the RAI approach most DM's are taking on this?


Cheers,
Bruno 

This probably won't ever get fixed because it was in Dragon and not a book, which is why it also has the wrong structure to begin with.

The way we ran it in our campaign (before we leveled high enough that the swordmage swapped it out) was that the swordmage teleports first, then attacks, and then the additional effect applies.

So basically we played it as if it were written this way, with the first effect before the target or attack lines.  This puts it more in line with the structure of some similar powers and seems to be the RAI.

Daily        Arcane, Teleportation, Thunder, Weapon
Standard Action      Melee weapon

Effect: Teleport a number of squares equal to your Constitution modifier.

Target: One creature

Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude

Hit: 2[W] + Intelligence modifier thunder damage.

Effect: Each enemy adjacent to you gains ongoing 5 thunder damage (save ends).

Thanks for the reply.

When I first saw this power that was also my RAI interpretation of it.
Probably that's the one we'll adopt in our campaign too.

Cheers,
Bruno