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Mar 30, 2010 -- 6:35PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

Mar 30, 2010 -- 6:19PM, Artoomis wrote:

Mar 30, 2010 -- 5:32PM, zgrose wrote:

Spending an Action Point is CLEARLY giving you an EXTRA action.  That's what is says.  When your are dazed you get one action plus free actions.  Spending an action point gives you an EXTRA ACTION.

Dazed doesn't take any actions away from you. It let you only take either  Standart, a Move or a Minor. It doesn't give you one action knocking of the two others. It doesn't say you can take anymore than that by spending an AP. It limit you regardless of what you can do. Spending an AP doesn't make you take that extra action, only gain it. If another source limits the action you can take, unfortunatly, you won't get anymore than the limitations imposes you to take.

If a Warlord uses Commander's Strike or Opening the Shove while adjacent to an Uncouncious or Stunned PC that let him attack or Shift, do you think that his Unconcious ally will move or attack because he doesn't take any actions to do so ?

No, because they cannot take any actions.  That precludes them even from taking extra actions, because they are denied all actions.

Dazed does not do that.  Nothing about dazed prevents you from taking extra actions.  There will likely be no clarification from WotC.  Why would they?  I am sure, from their prespective, there is nothing to clairfy.  It is very clear.   When something grants you an extra action, you get to take it unless you can take no actions at all.

I realize that somehow in your head you read Dazed to say: 

You can take only one standard action, move action, or minor action  during your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take   immediate actions or opportunity actions or any extra actions granted to you.

That would preclude taking any extra actions.  But it does not say that.  It says:

You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor  action  on your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take   immediate actions or opportunity actions.

Nothing about that precludes taking extra actions you are granted somehow.

Mar 30, 2010 -- 6:51PM, Artoomis wrote:

No, because they cannot take any actions.  That precludes them even from taking extra actions, because they are denied all actions.

Who told you they were taking actions ? The mentioned Powers doesn't state or at best it wouldbe No Action, which Unconcious creature are allowed to take.

Mar 30, 2010 -- 6:51PM, Artoomis wrote:

I realize that somehow in your head you read Dazed to say: 

You can take only one standard action, move action, or minor action during your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take  immediate actions or opportunity actions or any extra actions granted to you.

That would preclude taking any extra actions.  But it does not say that.  It says:

You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor  action on your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take  immediate actions or opportunity actions.

Nothing about that precludes taking extra actions you are granted somehow.

It is IMO, despite what Fitz was saying to me the other day. It's a limitation. Regardlesss of how many extra actions you could possibly take you either take a Standart, a Move or a Minor. The limitations is in regards to the options it enumerate, not what you can take. And The original 3 actions aren't restrictions. It's a base of what you get and you can possibly get more using different methods. 

You seem to read to Dazed let you take eighter one action of the ones you can originally take extra after.
I read it as you can take either one of the three mentioned, regardless of what you have available.

Anyway, tell me what's either truly means thereby ? Not an adverb, not a pronoun. It's an adjective ?

WIKI:  Either is an English pronoun, adjective, conjunction and adverb. As a pronoun or adjective it means one, or the other, of two choices. As an adjective, it can also mean both of two possibilities. As a conjunction, it means one of two or more choices. As an adverb, it means "likewise" or "also", and is used for emphasis after a negative statement. Its origin is from Old English ǽghweþer, which literally analyses as a compound word "any - whether." In some constructions it may also mean both of the two choices. (i.e. The hallway was lined on either side with shelving.)

Either/or means "one or the other." It usage versus the simple or structure is often for emphatic purposes, sometimes intending to emphasize that only one option is possible, or to emphasize if there are only two options. Its use in a sentence lets the reader/listener know in advance that a list of two or more possibilities will be given. Its negative is neither/nor, meaning "none of them".

Dazed limitation of either a Standart, a Move or a Minor is in regards to these 3 enumerations, regardless of how many extras one might get.

Monster's Turn: Daze PC

PC Turn: Take a Standart to attack.  (Left actions: a Move, a Minor and Free's)
               Spend an AP to gain an extra Standart (Left actions: a Move, a Minor, a Standart and Free's)
            
Can he use his extra Standart ? No. Because he took what he was allowed to take in the action limitations imposed by Dazed.

Mar 30, 2010 -- 7:39PM, Artoomis wrote:

Monster's Turn: Daze PC

PC Turn: Take a Standard to attack.  (Only Free actions left)
               Spend an AP to gain an extra Standard (Still have Free left too)

Can he use his extra Standard ? Absolutely. Because he is entitled to an extra action.  As in above and beyond what he otherwise gets for that turn.

No, that's wrong. Dazed doesn't take the rest of your actions away. You still have them, just can't take them because you took the one and only that you could. 

Extra is on top of what you have. Not on top of what you can take. The extra actions you gain from an AP ALWAYS go in the actions available to you.  If you exceed your limitations you just can't take any more. If you're Slowed and a power let you Charge, you won't move any farther than 2 even if you're an Half-Orc and get a bonus to Speed in extra. If you're Immobilized, you can't move even if you Run and gain +2 bonus extra squares of movement in extra.

The only instance where i can see an AP could let you use the extra action you gained if if you would have use your Move, your Minor and you're Standart and got interrupted Dazing you. You'd effectively be able to take any of the type you'd choose it to be, since it would be either a Standart, a Move or a Minor anyway.

So I read your argument since an hour or two now, and well I have to say that the big problem I see is that Action point is for what I think and know of 4th edition is a general rule, and Daze condition is a general rule as well basicly. 

But what about other source of extra action then Action point, like the power I linked.

In PH1 they say that power and item property can modify rule and bring up exeptions to general rules. And the Specific rule win over General do help out to sort things out. So like the power I linked say you can use an extra action for non-damaging action on your next trun bring up an exection to the general rule of Daze condition. As would an item with a similar property would do.

Do you both agree on that statement ?