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Errata Levelup Chart - then remove/edit feats that fix mathematical game flaws
2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2010 - 12:34AM #1
CriticalBastard
Date Joined: Jan 31, 2009
Posts: 513
Background: Player attacks and non-AC defenses (or NADs)  do not scale properly with level. Monster attacks and defenses increase  by 1 per level, but players increase by 1 every even level. Attribute  boosts and enhancement bonuses don't fully make up for the discrepancy  between monsters and players, and as level increases, the gap widens.   Currently, the following feats are used to fix this flaw: Weapon  Expertise, Implement Expertise, Focused Expertise, Paragon Defenses,  Robust Defenses, and Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, and Epic Will

Below  is an example of how various scores degrade:
**********
Example of  Degradation

Drow Sorcerer -  Leather Armor (highest AC  masterwork available), Dagger, generic magic  items equal to level  after lv1, stats 12 12 16 10 8 16, Boost Dex/Cha every time,  No PP or  ED
Attack   & Defense Values Level   Comparison
Level AC Fort Reflex Will Attack AC Fort Reflex Will Attack
1 16 11 14 16 4 15 10 13 15 3
4 19 14 17 19 7 15 10 13 15 3
6 21 16 19 21 9 15 10 13 15 3
8 23 17 21 23 11 15 9 13 15 3
11 25 20 24 25 13 14 9 13 14 2
14 28 22 27 28 16 14 8 13 14 2
16 31 24 28 30 18 15 8 12 14 2
18 32 25 29 31 19 14 7 11 13 1
21 35 27 33 34 22 14 6 12 13 1
24 37 29 35 36 24 13 5 11 12 0
26 40 31 36 38 26 14 5 10 12 0
28 42 32 38 40 28 14 4 10 12 0
30 43 33 39 41 29 13 3 9 11 -1
Total   Degradation   over 30 levels -2 -7 -4 -4 -4

**********


The Issue:
Fixing  degradation with feats causes several issues:

1. Powers still  not fixed: Racial powers, some paragon path powers, and  miscellaneous item powers still aren't fixed by Expertise feats.

2.  Expertise feat taxes: Expertise feats are so powerful and  necessary as to be a "feat tax". That means the feat will eventually  become an optimal choice for every reasonably conceivable character  build, since hitting is generally essential. If every character should  get this feat eventually, it is not a choice. This goes against the  design concept of a feat.

3. Multiple weapons/implements: Anyone  who wants to use multiple weapons and/or implements is taxed with  Expertise feats multiple times. The new feat "Versatile Expertise"  alleviates this concern, but leaves many combinations suffering such as  any two weapon or two implement combination.

4. Levels 1-4: At  levels 1-4, players who take Expertise feats have attack bonuses ahead  of the curve.

5. Non-AC defense taxes get incurably low by  late paragon: Non-AC defenses become incredibly easy for monsters to  hit starting around Paragon. It is very difficult for a player to get  all of their non-AC defenses to be comparable to a monsters of equal  level. Monster attacks against NADs are typically 2 or 3 lower than  attacks against AC, but by Epic a character's lowest NADs can get up to  10 or more behind AC. As the chart above indicates, NADs degrade by  between -4 and -7. This results in characters getting hit extremely  easily, and getting hosed by certain monsters or game scenarios. Some  encounters or scenarios seem to ignore this design flaw and treat NADs  like they are 2 lower than standard AC, which puts some parties in  extremely deadly situations. In late Paragon, where the problem is  endemic, a PC has Paragon Defenses and feats like Iron Will, which are  generally inadequate to boost their lowest NADs to comparably to early  heroic levels.

6. Non-AC defense feat tax: To fix the NAD  issue in Epic requires 2 or 3 feats (Robust Defenses and Epic Will or  Fortitude or Reflexes for your lowest NAD or two lowest NADs).

7.  Good Non-AC defenses can get too high: If a character boosts  their best NAD with Epic Will, Fortitude, or Reflex, they can boost it  to very high levels. Combined with items that can boost a NAD by 3, you  can build a character with a nearly a unhittable NAD. Even the "ok" NADs  can get boosted to very high levels.


The Solution - Errata  the Levelup Chart: All of these feats could be  eliminated simply by updating the levelup chart. The issue with poor  non-AC defenses could be eliminated as well. Here's how:

Three  Simple Errata to the Levelup Chart:
1. +1 to all attacks at  5th, 15th, and 25th level - This eliminates the need for all  Expertise feats while also taking care of racial powers and other  miscellaneous powers.

2. +1 to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will  at 11th and 21st level - This eliminates the need for Robust  Defenses and Paragon Defenses. Simple, elegant automatic scaling, and  now there's only one problem left...

3. +1 to Fortitude,  Reflex, or Will at levels 5th, 15th, and 25th - This mostly  eliminates the need for Epic Reflexes, Fortitude, and Will. The feats  Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude (and their epic  equivalents) can find function again to fill in the gaps.

Please  confront the mathematical game flaws head on and deal with them in one  sweeping errata to the Levelup Chart. Fix the problem once and fix it  right and never have to deal with it again. The current "patchwork"  solution instead leaves the game taxing players to cover up flaws (or  allowing them to suffer), cheapening the meaning of feats, makes  character creation more esoteric, and clutters the character builder.


What  to do After the Errata - Innocuous Proposals: The proposals  below are suggestions for what to do with feats/powers after the levelup  chart is errataed. These are not definitive solutions, they're just to  demonstrate that eliminating the feats isn't necessary and changing them  isn't difficult.
Expertise Feats
- +1 feat bonus to basic  attacks with the selected weapon(s)/implement(s).
Paragon Defenses - Leave alone. (This is the lightest offender, isn't too powerful,  and as a feat bonus doesn't raise the optimization ceiling)
Robust  Defenses - Conditional, untyped bonus, such as until the end of  your next turn when you spend an action point.
Epic Fortitude,  Reflexes, Will - +2 untyped bonus; or +3 feat bonus, etc. (This  reduces the upper limit on your best NADs by 2 or 3 points, reigning in  the NAD optimization ceiling).
Racial powers - New attack  powers are coming out with scaling of +3/+6/+9. These powers will need  to be errataed to +2/+4/+6. This will save you work since it is far  easier to errata the few powers that use this new scaling than to go  back and errata all past +2/+4/+6 powers to use the new system.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2010 - 3:55AM #2
Mythril_Sage
Date Joined: Oct 14, 2009
Posts: 141
Hear! Hear! This is a simple and elegant way to free up space for more "character development" feats.
A simple +1 to attack, damage, or defense rolls is far too bland of an option for me, especially when I HAVE to take it to keep up with the monsters thrown my way.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2010 - 5:18AM #3
Elwyndas
Date Joined: Jul 7, 2008
Posts: 1,749
I support this. The level 1-4 problem is the worst offender in my opinion. The early levels now clearly hit too often. I've seen the change in many games after the expertise feats were released.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2010 - 8:20AM #4
CriticalBastard
Date Joined: Jan 31, 2009
Posts: 513
Thanks for the support! If you have suggestions or concerns, the discussion thread for this errata is here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2010 - 12:54AM #5
Feyberry
Date Joined: Jun 25, 2008
Posts: 1,125

Mar 6, 2010 -- 8:20AM, CriticalBastard wrote:

Thanks for the support! If you have suggestions or concerns, the discussion thread for this errata is here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...


There is no feat tax.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2010 - 6:07AM #6
AbyssalDeath
Date Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1,390

Mar 9, 2010 -- 12:54AM, Feyberry wrote:

Mar 6, 2010 -- 8:20AM, CriticalBastard wrote:

Thanks for the support! If you have suggestions or concerns, the discussion thread for this errata is here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...


There is no feat tax.



Ditto. There are just really good feats.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2010 - 5:32PM #7
CriticalBastard
Date Joined: Jan 31, 2009
Posts: 513
Please discuss here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

I'd appreciate a discussion on the substance of the proposal, not just the semantics.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2010 - 1:42AM #8
CriticalBastard
Date Joined: Jan 31, 2009
Posts: 513
The proposal has been updated with a 7th issue, what to do with new Racial Powers, a chart with examples of degradation, and a bit more discussion in a couple of places.
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