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Switch to Forum Live View Goblin Races (Specifically for Eberron)
3 years ago  ::  May 28, 2010 - 7:21PM #21
greatfrito
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May 26, 2010 -- 4:08PM, Chiba_Monkey wrote:

I have some feedback for you if you'd like to hear it:



Very much so!

Predator's Superiority should read only "The target grants CA to you until the end of your next turn."  Otherwise seems too powerful.



Ah, that was the intent originally.  However, compared to, say, the Warforged racial Fighter feat (Warforged Superiority, which knocks the target prone in addition to the attack), I think it's potent, but fine.  CA is a lesser included effect of Prone, after all, so it's at least a step down there.  The Bugbear might be able to take more advantage of the CA than a Warforged can (via his racial power), so... I dunno.  With that all said, do you still think it's too powerful?

Defensive Goblin tactics seems a little strong, especially since the trigger power is an at-will.  Unfortunately I cannot think of a suggested fix.



Well, it could be "+1 AC/Reflex against the creature who triggered Goblin Tactics" (perhaps you could suggest a better full wording?), but I think that's a bit... weak, maybe?

Hobgoblin Tactics, I assume, was meant to represent the Phalanx ability of most Hobgoblins.  Should not the feat require either the hobgoblin and/or the adjacent ally to be wearing a shield?



It could, but I don't think it needs to.  Thematically I wanted it to be useful when fighting with two-handed weapons, or two weapons, and mechanically I wanted it to be a small bonus that will likely be active a lot - again, something similar to a Warforged feat (Warforged Tactics, which gives the more valuable +1 attack when an ally is adjacent to your target).

I Like Ready Assault, but the wording on it seems a little off.  I suggest "You gain a +5 bonus to damage rolls during the first round of combat" Seems simpler.



That's a much better wording.  I'll change it to that, if you don't mind. 

And Perpetual Resiliance...seems a little strong.  Something about such a character essentially having a 65% chance (if they also have the paragon feat giving them a +2 to saving throws made with HR) to throw off EVERY save ends ability before it ever affects them.  Add to that a Hobgoblin Warden with this feat would have that 65% chance and then another 55% chance before they ever felt the effects.



It is a really potent ability, and may be out of line.  I suspected as much when I wrote it, honestly.  The only drawback seems to be that it eats your Immediate action, limiting it to one use per round (or no use, if you have any other Immediate option).  It might still work out alright - it is epic tier after all - though it seems more like an epic destiny feature...  For consideration, there is an existing Martial feat that basically gives an (improved) version of the Warden's Font of Life for certain effects (Martial Resolve: You make a save at the start and end of your turn for dazed, slowed, stunned, weakened, and immobilized.). 

If it's still too much as-is, maybe something like the Fey Charge feat.  Maybe instead of making Hobgoblin Resilience into an at-will, it could just gain "If you succeed at the save granted by Hobgob Resilience, you do not expend Hobgob Resilience", or alternatively "If you fail the save granted by Hobgob Resilience, you do not expend Hobgob Resilience."  Though both of those seem more like Paragon feat effects to me, than Epic feat effects.

May 26, 2010 -- 8:54PM, erik_the_guy wrote:

That was weird. I wanted to point out that one of the feats is weak (the one that changes the bugbear's racial ability from 1d6 to 1d8). +1 damage once per fight seems too weak for a feat.



Y'know, I had written it without actually thinking about it too hard.  I based it off of the Rogue and Ranger class feats, actually - the ones that improve their Striker bonus damage dice from d6 to d8 - but I can see how that's a much better option for an "always on" ability, than a once-per-encounter Racial power.

The Dragonborn's Empowered Breath feat actually boosts their breath weapon damage from d6 to d10 - however, it's a Paragon feat.

Given that Predatory Eye is somewhat more restrained that the breath attack, would an appropriate change be for the feat to bump the PE damage dice from d6 to d10

My only concern there is whether that would make Predatory Eye just outright superior to the Half-Orc's (somewhat similar) racial power.  PE is, again, more restricted, requiring both its own action, and that you hit with a subsequent attack, but it gives scaling extra damage dice...  Eh, realistically, I don't think PE getting bumped up to d10s would be too much.  Thoughts?

May 28, 2010 -- 1:46PM, urpriest wrote:

I've been building an ancient Egypt-like setting in which hobgoblins fill the role of the Persian empire, so your more civilized Eberron hobgoblins are closer to what I'm looking for. I'd been worried that their racial features are a tad underwhelming, though, and I see you don't add any. Do you think the hobgoblin is desirable enough at baseline? The other goblin thread adds a racial feature, but it's not really in keeping with how hobgoblins behave in my setting.



I don't think they need another racial feature to be a "good choice", but there's certainly room for one.  I didn't add one because I didn't think of one that necessarily fit what I wanted.  Consider too the Drow race - its only racial features are Darkvision (which, admittedly, is great), Fey Origin (little mechanical impact), Trance (little mechanical impact), and Lolthouched (it's twin racial powers).

So, to answer your question: Yeah, I think it's desireable enough at baseline.  I actually had players use the MM write up, without any feats available - with the feats (especially the Eberron-specific ones) I think they're fairly on-par.  Maybe on the low end of racial power, but still useful.

I'm sure we could add something else (minor) to it without a problem... I just don't know what that would beTongue out


Did that hit everyone's posts?  I hope so...

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3 years ago  ::  May 28, 2010 - 9:31PM #22
urpriest
Date Joined: Mar 1, 2010
Posts: 521
To clarify, one of the difficulties with hobgoblins as is is that their stats put them in direct competition with half-elves, whose racial power is insane...while they don't have to have that level of power, they should at least make people feel good for giving up dilettante.

Part of that problem is dealt with in my campaign because they can choose to fill the otherwise empty Int/Con slot via a Cha or Int choice. I'd like for the Cha choice to still seem desirable though.

Part of that would of course be dealt with by the feats, and your thread and the other one are quite helpful in that respect.
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3 years ago  ::  May 28, 2010 - 9:43PM #23
erik_the_guy
Date Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Posts: 380
The greater viscousness feat is also a little weak. This one is +2 damage once every few fights. It reminds me of those rather weak feats that add +2 damage on the surprise round etc.
I like the bugbear sense feats that affect different kinds of perception. 
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3 years ago  ::  May 29, 2010 - 12:32AM #24
greatfrito
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May 28, 2010 -- 9:31PM, urpriest wrote:

To clarify, one of the difficulties with hobgoblins as is is that their stats put them in direct competition with half-elves, whose racial power is insane...while they don't have to have that level of power, they should at least make people feel good for giving up dilettante.

Part of that problem is dealt with in my campaign because they can choose to fill the otherwise empty Int/Con slot via a Cha or Int choice. I'd like for the Cha choice to still seem desirable though.

Part of that would of course be dealt with by the feats, and your thread and the other one are quite helpful in that respect.



Gotcha.  Though I'm still not sure of what would fit, and work well.  I'm just going to toss out ideas at this point, and see if folks like them.

Strategic Coordination: You gain a +2 bonus on skill or ability checks to aid another.  When you successfully Aid Another, Aid Attack, or Aid Defense, you grant the target a +3 bonus instead of +2.

Hobgoblin Leadership: You grant allies within 10 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Intimidate checks.

Strategic Leadership: Allies within 10 squares of you grant a +3 bonus instead of +2 when they succesfully use the Aid Another, Aid Attack, or Aid Defense action.

Menacing Countenance: When you roll an Intimidate check [outside of combat?], roll twice and use either result.

Some of these may work as potential feats...

May 28, 2010 -- 9:43PM, erik_the_guy wrote:

The greater viscousness feat is also a little weak. This one is +2 damage once every few fights. It reminds me of those rather weak feats that add +2 damage on the surprise round etc.



Yeah, it is on the weaker side of things.  The feature it augments is rather weak itself, but I tend to think that it's okay.

Hm.  Could just scrap the feat entirely, and replace it with something like...

Pervasive Viciousness
Prerequisite:
Bugbear
Benefit: You gain the bonus damage from the Vicious Killer feature each time you score a critical hit.

or

Benefit: You gain the bonus damage from the Vicious Killer feature the first time you score a critical hit each round.

I like the bugbear sense feats that affect different kinds of perception. 




Thanks!  I know they're simple, but I thought they worked well.  And I like differentiating between Active- and Passive-Perception.

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3 years ago  ::  May 29, 2010 - 10:00PM #25
erik_the_guy
Date Joined: Jun 28, 2008
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Pervasive viscousness isn't bad. I think it would see much more use in later tiers as critical hits become more common. I wouldn't take it at heroic tier, based on the number of critical hits I get each combat being not many. It's more interesting than the +2.

Did you make a feat that recharges predatory eye on a critical? You might only get one critical a fight, but you should get another opportunity to have combat advantage no problem. 
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3 years ago  ::  May 30, 2010 - 3:11PM #26
greatfrito
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May 29, 2010 -- 10:00PM, erik_the_guy wrote:

Pervasive viscousness isn't bad. I think it would see much more use in later tiers as critical hits become more common. I wouldn't take it at heroic tier, based on the number of critical hits I get each combat being not many. It's more interesting than the +2.



My concern at this point is that it's a vastly superior feat option than then PH1's Devastating Critical [Paragon].  +10 damage on every crit (in paragon), vs. +1d10 damage on every crit.  In Heroic tier it's adding about as much as Devestating Critical, and it only gets better from there.  With Epic-tier crit-fishing builds, I would be concerned that it could be a bit too powerful.

Did you make a feat that recharges predatory eye on a critical? You might only get one critical a fight, but you should get another opportunity to have combat advantage no problem. 



That would probably be another good, and simple, feat to add.

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(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2010 - 9:52AM #27
greatfrito
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Going back a bit...

May 28, 2010 -- 7:21PM, greatfrito wrote:

May 26, 2010 -- 4:08PM, Chiba_Monkey wrote:

Defensive Goblin tactics seems a little strong, especially since the trigger power is an at-will.  Unfortunately I cannot think of a suggested fix.



Well, it could be "+1 AC/Reflex against the creature who triggered Goblin Tactics" (perhaps you could suggest a better full wording?), but I think that's a bit... weak, maybe?





Back to DGT.

I'm thinking it may be more "in line" with things if changed to "Until the end of your next turn, you gain a +1 bonus to AC or Reflex defense.  Choose the defense when you use goblin tactics."

At that point, it better compares to the Solid Sound feat (+2 Fort, Reflex, or Will defense when you use any Thunder power).

In addition to those considerations, compare Warforged Tactics, and the Hobgoblin's Hobgoblin Tactics feats - both are Heroic feats, and both give circumstantial bonuses (+1 attack for WF, +1 AC/Reflex for Hobbos), but they are likely to be active just as much as the DGT bonuses.  I dunno - I feel like it may still be fine as-is.

Then again, an alternative would be to run with something more akin to Solid Sound.  Maybe "Until the end of your next turn, you gain a +1 bonus to AC, Fortitude, Reflex, or Will defense.  Choose the defense when you use goblin tactics."

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No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).

(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 4:40AM #28
Qaplawjw
Date Joined: May 27, 2010
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Do you think you might include racial paragon paths? I'm going to talk to my brother about being a Hobgoblin (maybe a bard, if they need a leader) in a campaign he wants  to start. Or maybe a warlock; they might not need a leader. But I'm going to bookmark this, for later.

Or (maybe in a separate thread) feats/paragon paths to represent different druidic sects? I'm thinking they should be open to all Primal classes, following the Gatekeeper Mystagogue.
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 8:52AM #29
greatfrito
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Jun 3, 2010 -- 4:40AM, Qaplawjw wrote:

Do you think you might include racial paragon paths? I'm going to talk to my brother about being a Hobgoblin (maybe a bard, if they need a leader) in a campaign he wants  to start. Or maybe a warlock; they might not need a leader. But I'm going to bookmark this, for later.



One: Thanks for bookmarking. 
Two: I may do racial paragon paths, when I get around to it.  However, if I do, they're going to be more "generic", rather than Eberron-specific paths.  I might consider additional Eberron paths, but nearly every idea I've had is readily covered by an existing option.

As a specific example (because you're interested in playing a Bard), Hobgoblin Dirgesinger (an appropriate Dhakaani paragon path for Bards) is already very well covered conceptually and mechanically by the War Chanter paragon path in PH2 (p.82).

I'm probably more likely to revisit the concepts when character themes come out with Dark Sun.  At that point, I'll probably write up some various Eberron-specific themes.

Or (maybe in a separate thread) feats/paragon paths to represent different druidic sects? I'm thinking they should be open to all Primal classes, following the Gatekeeper Mystagogue.



I have to admit, I'm not terribly interested in the druidic sects, so probably not.  Tongue out

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No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).

(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 18, 2010 - 7:22AM #30
AvonRekaes
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Awesome job here! I don't think it could have been done better if it was published in Dragon. I'm subscribing to this thread.
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