Frostcheese is only broken with multi-attacks, or if the entire party gets in on the action.
The first is really a multi-attack problem, the second.... well... dunno what can be done about that.
I thought the Frostcheese was Wintertouched + Lasting Frost and some Cold damage via a weapon or At-Will Power in order to gain an auto-Combat Advantage. Of which only Rogues really WOW's it. Others gets a +2 to Hit and can become quite an investment to achieve it.
Multi-attack ?
EDIT Oh for Controllerish to do some Frostcheese so the Roguish can SA at will. I see.
Not so much for the CA, but for the vulnerability. Twin strike with a frost weapon for example will deal 1|W| on the first attack, and 1|W| + 5 on the second, next round it's 1|W|+5 and 1|W|+5. Even assuming 1/2 miss, your still doing +5 damage a round for a feat. Setup a hurricane of blades or something, and your damage just sky rocketed.
Interesting, we have always interpreted that the two twin strikes each hit simultaneously, so you would not get the frost benefit on the first round with the second swing against a given foe. Is there any reason that can be cited to interpret whether they are simultaneous or whether they should be handled sequentially?
Frostcheese is only broken with multi-attacks, or if the entire party gets in on the action.
The first is really a multi-attack problem, the second.... well... dunno what can be done about that.
I thought the Frostcheese was Wintertouched + Lasting Frost and some Cold damage via a weapon or At-Will Power in order to gain an auto-Combat Advantage. Of which only Rogues really WOW's it. Others gets a +2 to Hit and can become quite an investment to achieve it.
Multi-attack ?
EDIT Oh for Controllerish to do some Frostcheese so the Roguish can SA at will. I see.
Not so much for the CA, but for the vulnerability. Twin strike with a frost weapon for example will deal 1|W| on the first attack, and 1|W| + 5 on the second, next round it's 1|W|+5 and 1|W|+5. Even assuming 1/2 miss, your still doing +5 damage a round for a feat. Setup a hurricane of blades or something, and your damage just sky rocketed.
Interesting, we have always interpreted that the two twin strikes each hit simultaneously, so you would not get the frost benefit on the first round with the second swing against a given foe. Is there any reason that can be cited to interpret whether they are simultaneous or whether they should be handled sequentially?
Nope, i can't. That might be a better way to play it.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Frostcheese is only broken with multi-attacks, or if the entire party gets in on the action.
The first is really a multi-attack problem, the second.... well... dunno what can be done about that.
I thought the Frostcheese was Wintertouched + Lasting Frost and some Cold damage via a weapon or At-Will Power in order to gain an auto-Combat Advantage. Of which only Rogues really WOW's it. Others gets a +2 to Hit and can become quite an investment to achieve it.
Multi-attack ?
EDIT Oh for Controllerish to do some Frostcheese so the Roguish can SA at will. I see.
Not so much for the CA, but for the vulnerability. Twin strike with a frost weapon for example will deal 1|W| on the first attack, and 1|W| + 5 on the second, next round it's 1|W|+5 and 1|W|+5. Even assuming 1/2 miss, your still doing +5 damage a round for a feat. Setup a hurricane of blades or something, and your damage just sky rocketed.
Interesting, we have always interpreted that the two twin strikes each hit simultaneously, so you would not get the frost benefit on the first round with the second swing against a given foe. Is there any reason that can be cited to interpret whether they are simultaneous or whether they should be handled sequentially?
Nope, i can't. That might be a better way to play it.
There are advantages and disadvantages to simultaneous. An advantage is that if someone had some effect that might go off between sequential attacks (e.g., teleport away, do a push on the attacker, etc.), they wouldn't get to do it. A disadvantage is that if one hit would fell the opponent, then the other swing couldn't be directed to another target. A related disadvantage occurred before also, where one minion was giving cover to another minion, both of which I was shooting at - if I could kill the first one with the first shot, I would not have the -2 penalty to hit the second one.
I do not recall the exact reason why we interpreted them as simultaneous before, it has been a while. It might be because of applying analogous rules such as for charge, that the move and the attack go off together, such that moving out from cover with a charge (or a Deft Strike) does not break Combat Advantage from Stealth, as it would otherwise for a separate move action from cover to standard action attack the foe.
But as I look at certain higher level attack powers with multiple attacks, it certainly seems sequential, e.g., Cruel Cage of Steel allows for movement between each attack, but is otherwise written up substantially similar to Twin Strike.
It can be a bit confusing to work with based on the Hunter's Quarry text as well, which says that if you can make multiple attacks in a round, you decide to apply it after all the attacks are rolled. So if you had a round where you attacked an already quarried foe, then decided to quarry another foe, and either minor action attack or action point attack that subsequent foe, it seems arguable you could wait to do all those rolls (and see which might be a crit!) and apply the quarry damage to whichever foe you preferred. Maybe the switch of quarry would mean you would have to apply it to the second foe, but you might have not even hit that foe. It also isn't clear that "after attacks are rolled" includes after damage is rolled, e.g., in the above example, if the attack damage killed the first foe without applying quarry damage, then you could hold onto the quarry damage to apply it to the second foe.
Frostcheese is only broken with multi-attacks, or if the entire party gets in on the action.
The first is really a multi-attack problem, the second.... well... dunno what can be done about that.
I thought the Frostcheese was Wintertouched + Lasting Frost and some Cold damage via a weapon or At-Will Power in order to gain an auto-Combat Advantage. Of which only Rogues really WOW's it. Others gets a +2 to Hit and can become quite an investment to achieve it.
Multi-attack ?
EDIT Oh for Controllerish to do some Frostcheese so the Roguish can SA at will. I see.
Not so much for the CA, but for the vulnerability. Twin strike with a frost weapon for example will deal 1|W| on the first attack, and 1|W| + 5 on the second, next round it's 1|W|+5 and 1|W|+5. Even assuming 1/2 miss, your still doing +5 damage a round for a feat. Setup a hurricane of blades or something, and your damage just sky rocketed.
Interesting, we have always interpreted that the two twin strikes each hit simultaneously, so you would not get the frost benefit on the first round with the second swing against a given foe. Is there any reason that can be cited to interpret whether they are simultaneous or whether they should be handled sequentially?
The rules on Immediate actions of p268 of the PHB indicate that if a power allows two attacks as part of a single action, and the target can take an immediate reaction when attacked, that reaction will occur after the first attack but before the second. This seems to imply a universal rule that multi-attack powers make their attacks sequentially, and the text of Twin Strike does not contradict this view.
The rules on Immediate actions of p268 of the PHB indicate that if a power allows two attacks as part of a single action, and the target can take an immediate reaction when attacked, that reaction will occur after the first attack but before the second. This seems to imply a universal rule that multi-attack powers make their attacks sequentially, and the text of Twin Strike does not contradict this view.
Which sounds like a good way to handle the keyword alterations mid multi-attack. A power may not have a keyword for the first X attacks and end up having it for the last Y attacks.
"Oh bother." sighed Pooh as he chambered another round.
So does Immunity to something check the Keywords of a Power or the actual Damage the Power deals?
Check the MM2 or Compendium for the current rules on immunity. Immunity means completely different things depending on what they're immune to. But the short answer is: immunity to damage types check the damage type, immunity to anything else checks the keyword, immunity to poison checks both.
"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.
Thanks, I recently re-read that rule on immediate actions which was another reason to push the change to sequential hitting. It does make applying hunter's quarry potentially more cumbersome though, since you won't just roll it with your regular damage all the time. Also, it still leads to some potential timing issues, e.g., you hit a foe with the first swing then go to roll the second swing and the GM interrupts your action like noted above (e.g., for a shift away), then it is questionable whether you can go back and apply the quarry damage to the first swing (since it says "If you can make multiple attacks in a round, you decide which attack to apply the extra damage to after all the attacks are rolled.") - can you apply the damage even if the foe moved out of range? Can you apply the damage before going on to further attacks (e.g., if the first is a crit, maybe you want to go ahead and apply it for the full crit damage, especially if you know he gets to do something funny between your attacks like push you away).
Thanks, I recently re-read that rule on immediate actions which was another reason to push the change to sequential hitting. It does make applying hunter's quarry potentially more cumbersome though, since you won't just roll it with your regular damage all the time. Also, it still leads to some potential timing issues, e.g., you hit a foe with the first swing then go to roll the second swing and the GM interrupts your action like noted above (e.g., for a shift away), then it is questionable whether you can go back and apply the quarry damage to the first swing (since it says "If you can make multiple attacks in a round, you decide which attack to apply the extra damage to after all the attacks are rolled.") - can you apply the damage even if the foe moved out of range? Can you apply the damage before going on to further attacks (e.g., if the first is a crit, maybe you want to go ahead and apply it for the full crit damage, especially if you know he gets to do something funny between your attacks like push you away).
The wording on quarry, that you yourself just quoted, explains this clearly.
"If you can make multiple attacks in a round, you decide which attack to apply the extra damage to after all the attacks are rolled."
You can use Follow-up Blow, Blade Cascade, Trip-up, Action Point, and Cruel Cage Of Steel, figure out ALL of the attacks you're going to make in the entire round, roll *all* of the attacks and damage rolls, and then decide to go back and apply your Quarry damage to the 8th attack, which is the only one that crit.
Hunter's Quarry lets you apply it after rolling *all* of the attacks in the round, not just in an action and not even just the actions on your turn, although I suspect your GM would look at you funny if you tried to hold off on applying Quarry damage yet because you were thinking you might crit on an OA or Disruptive Strike.
So, if you get interrupted after attack #1 of Twin Strike, and you're not going to make any more attacks, you can go back and apply your Quarry damage to it.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Agree, though I really think it should be worded to prevent someone from waiting until their turn almost comes around again and then deciding that their first attack on their last turn also did quarry damage. "in an turn" or even "in an action" would be more appropriate to me. Though care would have to be taken to not disallow applying quarry damage to opportunity or immediate action attacks if it has not been used that round yet.
Thanks, I recently re-read that rule on immediate actions which was another reason to push the change to sequential hitting. It does make applying hunter's quarry potentially more cumbersome though, since you won't just roll it with your regular damage all the time. Also, it still leads to some potential timing issues, e.g., you hit a foe with the first swing then go to roll the second swing and the GM interrupts your action like noted above (e.g., for a shift away), then it is questionable whether you can go back and apply the quarry damage to the first swing (since it says "If you can make multiple attacks in a round, you decide which attack to apply the extra damage to after all the attacks are rolled.") - can you apply the damage even if the foe moved out of range? Can you apply the damage before going on to further attacks (e.g., if the first is a crit, maybe you want to go ahead and apply it for the full crit damage, especially if you know he gets to do something funny between your attacks like push you away).
The wording on quarry, that you yourself just quoted, explains this clearly.
"If you can make multiple attacks in a round, you decide which attack to apply the extra damage to after all the attacks are rolled."
You can use Follow-up Blow, Blade Cascade, Trip-up, Action Point, and Cruel Cage Of Steel, figure out ALL of the attacks you're going to make in the entire round, roll *all* of the attacks and damage rolls, and then decide to go back and apply your Quarry damage to the 8th attack, which is the only one that crit.
Hunter's Quarry lets you apply it after rolling *all* of the attacks in the round, not just in an action and not even just the actions on your turn, although I suspect your GM would look at you funny if you tried to hold off on applying Quarry damage yet because you were thinking you might crit on an OA or Disruptive Strike.
So, if you get interrupted after attack #1 of Twin Strike, and you're not going to make any more attacks, you can go back and apply your Quarry damage to it.
That sounds all well and good, but there is the extra step to take into account, of switching your quarry mid-action, e.g., what if you attack one foe who was previously quarried, then quarry another foe, and attack that other foe? The book says "The hunter's quarry effect remains active until the end of the encounter, until the quarry is defeated, or until you designate a different target as your quarry." So would the switch mean you CANNOT apply it to the first foe, because you haven't finished rolling all your attacks and because the first foe would no longer be quarried? If not, that would make for some weirdness if you crit'd the first foe, but cannot apply the quarry damage until all your attack rolls are over, when you quarry the other foe in the meantime, then finish your attack rolls.
Another weirdness comes from rigorous application of the ordering of actions. If for instance you are 2 squares from one foe but want to quarry the foe 5 squares away you are going to charge at, it seems that if you had to first use the minor action to quarry, then the standard action to charge, that you could not quarry your intended target. But instead, it seems you should be able to apply your quarry mid-standard action, between the move and the attack, for it to apply sensically as opposed to oddly due to overly strict rules constraints.
