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Feb 17, 2010 -- 2:09PM, makeshiftwings wrote:

Going strictly by the books, a level 30 Sorcerer can summon godlike pillars of fire and create gigantic explosions of acid in under 2 seconds in the middle of a pitched battle, but they can't make a candle dance or levitate a rock into the air without spending 10 minutes and a bunch of gold casting a lenghty ritual.  Seems backwards to me.

Why doesn't "Godlike pillars of fire" and similiar spells from the Sorcerer qualify as fireworks? You say that Sorcerers have trouble because they cant freely use minor magics without expenditure of reagents, but at the sime time a Sorcerer makes the Pyrotechnics ritual essentially obsolete.

Nothing is stopping the Sorcerer from casting "a barrage of small, colorful explosions into the
sky." by simple reflavoring of his powers. The only things the pyrotechnics beat the at-wills are at lighting and visibility, but this only comes into play something along the line of a rescue signal, not entertaining some commoners.

Feb 17, 2010 -- 2:22PM, Cpt_Micha wrote:

You forgot Skill Checks in general.

So add that to the list.

So just as many in 4e as past Es.

Infact Skill checks are now more flexible than ever. (given that they imply some magic can be done at will. Especially minor magic it's easy to assume that there can be magic being done from a skill check)

naegunfael.proboards.com/index.cgi?board...

4th article in my thread. Flavor vs Crunch.

Read it.

No, 3E also had a lot more non-combat spells.  Clerics and Druids had Orisons, Wizards had a large list of Cantrips, and all spellcasting classes had a bunch of flavorful non-combat spells at all levels.  These were things they could do at a moment's notice and for free.  (Though they did mostly use the Vancian memorization system, which was a pain)

It also had more non-combat rules fluff for classes and races.  For instance, Druids had Wild Empathy, Trackless Step, Thousand Faces, and Timeless Body - all things that had little effect on combat but which added a nice dose of rules-supported fluff to the class.  4e classes never gain any non-combat powers as they go up in level, except for a very few potential utility powers which are often passed over to take utility powers that are useful in combat.  Part of 4e's design philosophy was supposed to be that taking roleplaying fluffy options would not hinder your combat ability, but taking one of the fluffy utility powers instead of a combat one does exactly that.

And though, for you, it may be "easy to assume that minor magic can be done with a skill check" or that they "imply minor magic can be done at will", the rules don't actually say any such thing.  By the rules, Arcana represents only the knowledge of arcane things and the ability to detect magic.  It doesn't mean you can cast spells.  And by the rules, no one can cast minor magic at-will except for the At-Will powers listed for their class.

Your fluff post is fine, but you need to realize it's entirely house rules.  The rules as written don't say (or even imply, IMHO), that characters have the ability to control someone's mind magically by making a Diplomacy check or that they can create magical illusions at will with Bluff checks.  A player who is new to the game, reading the books and with no knowledge of what spellcasters used to be able to do in earlier editions, would never come to the conclusion that Warlocks can magically control people's minds and create holographic illusions at will.  Just because you can say that they can doesn't mean the system is doing it.  You can take any RPG and say that any class can create banana creme pies at will; that says nothing about the actual RPG.  If the RPG is supposed to encourage players to create banana creme pies, then it should mention in the fluff and/or rules that it's possible for Bananamancers to create banana creme pies at will.  If it doesn't, then how would anyone know that they can?

Feb 17, 2010 -- 2:31PM, johnnii wrote:

Feb 17, 2010 -- 2:09PM, makeshiftwings wrote:

Going strictly by the books, a level 30 Sorcerer can summon godlike pillars of fire and create gigantic explosions of acid in under 2 seconds in the middle of a pitched battle, but they can't make a candle dance or levitate a rock into the air without spending 10 minutes and a bunch of gold casting a lenghty ritual.  Seems backwards to me.

Why doesn't "Godlike pillars of fire" and similiar spells from the Sorcerer qualify as fireworks? You say that Sorcerers have trouble because they cant freely use minor magics without expenditure of reagents, but at the sime time a Sorcerer makes the Pyrotechnics ritual essentially obsolete.

Nothing is stopping the Sorcerer from casting "a barrage of small, colorful explosions into the
sky." by simple reflavoring of his powers. The only things the pyrotechnics beat the at-wills are at lighting and visibility, but this only comes into play something along the line of a rescue signal, not entertaining some commoners.

Er... I didn't say fireworks.  I said "make a candle dance or levitate a rock".  Yeah, if a Sorcerer said he wanted to create a huge explosion, then sure there's enough rules support to say that he can do that.  But creating huge explosions is one of the only things the sorcerer really has rules for.  There's a lot of other minor magic tricks that might be cool to have that sorcerers can't do by the rules.  A DM might rule that a sorcerer can mimic pyrotechnics, but then again he might not: Sorcerers are described as weilding barely-controlled elemental power - maybe they can't just channel a tiny bit to amuse some children; maybe it's a huge dangerous explosion or nothing.  The fact is that the rules don't say one way or the other, so most people are going to assume you can only do what the book says your character can do, and that's his combat powers and Rituals.  If WotC wanted people to assume Sorcerers could cast Pyrotechnics at will, they should have said "Sorcerers can cast Pyrotechnics at will", like they did for the Wizard.  The fact that they did for the Wizard but not for the Sorcerer points much more towards the idea that Sorcerers can't mimic Pyrotechnics.

Spoiler: Show

Oh yes since so many cantrips had non combat applications and did nothing with combat what so ever.

Really you need rules to tell you that a DRUID has a sense of empathy with animals? Really? You need a specific class feature to tell you this? Also if you haven't noticed look at Nature. It ate that feature you are pining for.

Timeless body? Dude that WAS a combat construct purely. Do you know what it did for you? Free Stat bonuses as your character aged. With Penalty Negation oh, and it granted you immunity to magical aging effects as well.

Personally I would rather take a utility that gets a + to a skill than a combat utility. Skill checks can have much longer ramifications than temporary bonuses in combat.

Do you need an Rpg to tell you that your character defecates? No?
What part of that was a house rule? NONE. I changed nothing.  I only let the player add some flavor to his skill bonuses and that was IT. They didn't get to use them in situations where they normally wouldn't etc.

No no one can use a Power unless they have a power. Spells do NOT equal powers. That is what the rules say and spell out quite clearly. Rituals are complex potentially important non combat spells hence their existence. (and their costs) minor magics to impress children? No sorry that's not a Power or a Ritual. That's a Skill Check.

Fluff is NOT house ruling.

The funny part about your little rant there, is that it was a NEW (I don't mean to 4e. I mean to Rpgs period.)player that came up with that idea. Seems to me it's more of a "I am stuck in Previous E Rules = Physics!" mind set problem than a nooby problem.

Yeah, and guess what? No system in it's right mind is going to try to say that creating Bannana cream pies is as important as skills that are actually used with a high frequency or that it's as powerful as a combat ability.

Which 3e assumed people would. It also assumed alot of things. Most of which were WRONG.