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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 9:58AM
#31
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as we've gotten of on the wrong foot, lets try this again ...
From you OP, you seem to have made the conclusion "It's a persons attitude that really decides if a system works or not.".
However, I do not agree, at least not on a normal scale.
For a system to work, that is obviously dependant on a personal feeling. A system of rolling random unnumbered dice to get random DCs would work if a person is insane enough to think it works. But on a normal scale, rolling random unnumbered dice to get random DCs doesn't work.
And that is where the problem lies. the conclusion talks about people's attitude, implying that, if they would simply give 4e a honest chance, that it would work. However, attitude is not the only factor. People like and dislike other things.
- Some people like easy games, requiring as little dicerolling and mental activity as needed. 4e doesn't work for these people because almost each attack requires 2 rolls (attack & damage), tactical positioning, etc .
- Others like super realistic games. For these last group 4e simply doesn't work. you can't go around fighting monsters and dragons; sleep 8 hours and be 100% (even though hp are abstract concept, a monsters must be pretty incompentent not even to cause brusing or musscle soarness). - Others like steampunk, sci-fi, etc ...
For those people, even if they gave 4e a honest chance, the system will never work, because they need to adapt the system too much to be conform with what they want.
So, unless your conclusion is a tautology*, I have to disagree.
(*: if you're saying each variable how a person feels is considered attittude, then yes attittude decides if people like the system).
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 10:29AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2008
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I would have said no, but there's a lot I would have said yes to.
Prestidigitation doesn't seem like a Sorcerer shtick at all. But if a Chaos Sorcerer wants to visibly manifest his Wild Soul (ie, fire, he can create a small flame in his hand), a Dragon Sorcerer wants to display scales, a Storm Sorcerer wants to do some sparks, whatever. Or a Warlock wants to cover himself in his Shadow Walk shadows.
Yes: I want to display something that's part of my character's background, class, or features, even if it's not explicitly given to him.
No: I want to do something because the class could do it in a previous edition.
The Bruce Campbell of D&D.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 11:06AM
#33
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as we've gotten of on the wrong foot, lets try this again ...
From you OP, you seem to have made the conclusion "It's a persons attitude that really decides if a system works or not.".
However, I do not agree, at least not on a normal scale.
For a system to work, that is obviously dependant on a personal feeling. A system of rolling random unnumbered dice to get random DCs would work if a person is insane enough to think it works. But on a normal scale, rolling random unnumbered dice to get random DCs doesn't work.
And that is where the problem lies. the conclusion talks about people's attitude, implying that, if they would simply give 4e a honest chance, that it would work. However, attitude is not the only factor. People like and dislike other things.
- Some people like easy games, requiring as little dicerolling and mental activity as needed. 4e doesn't work for these people because almost each attack requires 2 rolls (attack & damage), tactical positioning, etc .
- Others like super realistic games. For these last group 4e simply doesn't work. you can't go around fighting monsters and dragons; sleep 8 hours and be 100% (even though hp are abstract concept, a monsters must be pretty incompentent not even to cause brusing or musscle soarness). - Others like steampunk, sci-fi, etc ...
For those people, even if they gave 4e a honest chance, the system will never work, because they need to adapt the system too much to be conform with what they want.
So, unless your conclusion is a tautology*, I have to disagree.
(*: if you're saying each variable how a person feels is considered attittude, then yes attittude decides if people like the system).
I think you have it wrong.
I'm not saying a persons attitude makes a system work or not. A system can be broken even if the person has the best attitude.
What I'm saying is that a persons attitude and opinion isn't proof that a system is crap and doesn't work. I would like to point out also, my OP wasn't about if the system worked or not, but that the system was crap.
And because he thought the system was crap, it didn't work. And that because of his close minded attitude towards the system, he was taking an inflexiable stance using poor examples to try and conveince me that is was indeed crap and broken.
And my experience is that when people are like that, it's because they have decided to not work with the system, because they don't want to, and it has very little to do with how well the system actually works.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 11:34AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Aug 29, 2007
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This is only a tangent at this point, but... As some one said before the sorcerer can easily use thier at wills and encounters (and even thier daily powers if they want to), not to mention skills to entairtain the children. The sorcerer can manipulate the very elemental forces of the universe, I would think that any 8 year old would think that very cool  (provided the sorcerer had the powers go off in a safe area and did not melt said kids face off). As any parent can tell you, it does not take much to get a bunch of young children laughing uncontrollably, I can do this myself by just saying "monkey butt" and/or doing a pratfall. I am pretty sure if I had at will magic powers I could keep their attention even better.
Not liking the new forums.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 11:52AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Dec 18, 2007
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I would think that any 8 year old would think that very cool (provided the sorcerer had the powers go off in a safe area and did not melt said kids face off).
I can see this scenario with a Chaos Sorcer in particular.
"Hey kid, wanna see a magic trick?"
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 12:00PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Aug 29, 2007
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I would think that any 8 year old would think that very cool (provided the sorcerer had the powers go off in a safe area and did not melt said kids face off).
I can see this scenario with a Chaos Sorcer in particular.
"Hey kid, wanna see a magic trick?"
Actually though, I seem to remember that the rules explicitly state that a player can choose for a power to do non-lethal damage? If this is the case then it is not much of a stretch for the sorcerer to say the powers pass harmlessly over the children.
Not liking the new forums.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 12:02PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2007
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I would think that any 8 year old would think that very cool (provided the sorcerer had the powers go off in a safe area and did not melt said kids face off).
I can see this scenario with a Chaos Sorcer in particular.
"Hey kid, wanna see a magic trick?"
Actually though, I seem to remember that the rules explicitly state that a player can choose for a power to do non-lethal damage? If this is the case then it is not much of a stretch for the sorcerer to say the powers pass harmlessly over the children.
I dont recall a rule like that. I do know when you drop a creature to 0 or less you can knock it out.
 Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 12:08PM
#38
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I would think that any 8 year old would think that very cool (provided the sorcerer had the powers go off in a safe area and did not melt said kids face off).
I can see this scenario with a Chaos Sorcer in particular.
"Hey kid, wanna see a magic trick?"
Actually though, I seem to remember that the rules explicitly state that a player can choose for a power to do non-lethal damage? If this is the case then it is not much of a stretch for the sorcerer to say the powers pass harmlessly over the children.
I dont recall a rule like that. I do know when you drop a creature to 0 or less you can knock it out.
Amd wouldn't children be minions? Mwhahahahahaha!
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 1:09PM
#39
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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I would have said no, but there's a lot I would have said yes to.
Prestidigitation doesn't seem like a Sorcerer shtick at all. But if a Chaos Sorcerer wants to visibly manifest his Wild Soul (ie, fire, he can create a small flame in his hand), a Dragon Sorcerer wants to display scales, a Storm Sorcerer wants to do some sparks, whatever. Or a Warlock wants to cover himself in his Shadow Walk shadows.
Yes: I want to display something that's part of my character's background, class, or features, even if it's not explicitly given to him.
No: I want to do something because the class could do it in a previous edition.
Whether or not it's a Sorceror shtick depends on the flavor of Sorceror. WotC default flavor doesn't really match, but I can see other Sorceror flavors for which it wouldn't be much of a stretch.
But that brings us back to your point; if it's part the character's background and/or improves the roleplaying experience, then I say yes. If it's just you trying to gain a bonus to your check, then it's a no.
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 2:09PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Nov 29, 2001
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I actually think this is a valid complaint. And I think there is an issue with allowing Sorcerers to have a default Prestidigitation power because it diminishes a class feature of wizards. One of 4e's flaws, imo, is it doesn't do enough to balance the PCs' abilities to use their powers outside combat. I don't think it's enough of a reason to eschew the system altogether, but depending on your pay style, it might be.
It's one of the reasons I devised Skill Tricks (and More Skill Tricks).
I also think that it shouldn't be that only one class -- Bard, or Wizard -- will have the skills to get through an encounter. It's one reason why Clerics are no longer the sole repository of healing. 4e does a lot of things right. But limiting Prestidigitation to Wizards is, imo, one of the things they got wrong.
I agree. I love 4e, but I do think that it has some big weaknesses in non-combat situations. There is almost no fluff or rules for what any sort of race or class can do outside of combat. A lot of people might see this as a good thing; "We don't need rules or fluff for X or Y; without it, it means we can make it all up ourselves!" Well, sure, but if you want a game with no rules or fluff, why buy any books? You can just freeform roleplay without ever rolling a die or reading a single rulebook.
4e only has two real systems for dealing with non-combat situations. Skill Challenges, and Rituals. I think Skill Challenges are awful. They had to completely rewrite the system multiple times since it was originally released, and even still, nearly every published Skill Challenge fails to follow the guidelines set forth in the errata'd errata and the DMG2. Rituals are mediocre; the fact that they all take a long time to cast, and require spending money to do anything at all, makes them see very little use in most games. Money is the only resource you have as a player to control your magic items, and people are loathe to spend it just to roleplay.
I like Wrecan's skill tricks, and I like the "Cantrips for everyone" thread that allows other classes to do some similar non-combat magic. I'm thinking of integrating some of these and some of my own rules into my next game to get the players to feel like they're actually powerful spellcasters outside of combat as well as in it. Going strictly by the books, a level 30 Sorcerer can summon godlike pillars of fire and create gigantic explosions of acid in under 2 seconds in the middle of a pitched battle, but they can't make a candle dance or levitate a rock into the air without spending 10 minutes and a bunch of gold casting a lenghty ritual. Seems backwards to me.
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