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3 years ago ::
Feb 16, 2010 - 9:36AM
#51
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If thats where this rules question has degenrated to, then its over. The rule clearly defines what bloodied is, it does not exclude minions from that rule there or anywhere else, thus there is no reason to think it does not apply to minions.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 16, 2010 - 10:30AM
#52
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While your condescension is amusing, legba, please take it somewhere else. (Your avatar choice is suitably appropriate, though.) The core of the argument is this: it's very clear in my estimation that minions were not intended to ever have or acquire bloodied status. Others disagree. To me, they are designed to be a binary entity: they are alive or they are dead. To me, bloodied triggers were not intended to key off destroying minions, nor are you ever supposed to get the benefit of "bloodied target" effects against minions (although I'm fairly certain no one disagrees with the latter). This is what I meant when I said clarification was required. Bloodied isn't a universal rule? Monsters are stated to be bloodied at 1/2 HP as per MM pg6 (see my post above).
Not directly, no. In context, it's describing the Bloodied: listing in a monster profile, which every single non-minion creature profile contains and every single minion profile omits. This is neither an error nor an unintentional omission. It has never been corrected, and they continue to print books in this manner.
The PHB tells a player how to figure their own bloodied value. Neither entry suggests in any way that this applies unilaterally to everything, unless you assume "monsters" translates as "all monsters in any source, regardless of what their profile states." I don't give an object, summon, or conjuration a bloodied value, for instance, unless it is explicitly stated in the profile.
I'm not intractable here: it is feasible that the developers intended minions to get bloodied. I can't imagine it. And I just don't see the support for it. The aforementioned rules are very straightforward and clear in their direction and context, and I feel that you have to twist it to imply that minions "become bloodied" somewhere in between 1 and 0 HP (inclusive), thereby triggering all sorts of bloodied reactions.
After all (and now we're talking about RAI again), making an enemy bloodied is supposed to be an accomplishment, hence the bonus provided by "bloodied" trigger events. Killing an minion is no effort - killing TONS of minions is only mildly moreso. Arguing that bloodied triggers are supposed to go off every time you kill a creature with 1 HP suggests to me very little understanding of game design.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 16, 2010 - 11:04AM
#53
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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When a monster is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, it is destroyed. What is the difference ?
Is it? I thought a monster that is reduced to 0 hit points of fewer is dead.
Meanwhile, a minion is destroyed. That's not necessarily the same thing, and it may preclude the minion actually reducing it's hit points to 0.
So far all I've seen as evidence is some hand waving about pact boons, but that's not necessarily proof of anything.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 16, 2010 - 11:28AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2003
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The rules that have been used for minions ie "when they takes damage they are destroyed" does not work within the rules as Wizards has been using them. By that measure temp hp do not work on minions which we know is untrue based off the FAQ. The reason for that statement is that minions, like all monsters, are destroyed when they go to 0 HP which minions do as demonstrated by the rulings for the warlock.
Also I would like some one to state why would one condition and/or state prevent another?
Also as far as balance reasons dropping a monster typically gives much more powerful effects then bloody a monster so that would not be game breaking.
Now if you believe it should not work that way then that is just fine but the rules as Wizards has been using them do not suggest that angle as correct.
to Fitz: when you say hand waving are you referring to the statements by Wizards that minions do trigger pact boons which have a trigger of "when reduced to 0 HP". Is that the "hand waving you mean?
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3 years ago ::
Feb 16, 2010 - 11:31AM
#55
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Please point out where I am condescending. The argument about it not listing minion as a type somewhere on the page has nothing to do with this question. If the basis for a counterpoint is that something else on the same page of the book is incomplete (it's not by the way) then the debate has ended and its become a typical internet squabble. (now I'm getting conscending)
As I said before, if you don't see any monster as being bloodied once it's dead, then I understand your point. Its debated here often. I disagree, but the book is not totally clear on that point.
What I don't see is how minions are any different than other creatures other than the ways they defined as different. (take no damage on misses, etc...). The not listing a bloodied value is interesting and the strongest case against. I see that as trying to avoid the questions it would bring up (since their bloodied value would be 0) and not printing something which seems irrelevant. (I truly believe WOTC did not consider whether dead creatures were bloodied when they wrote the rules).
As for the "accomplisment" argument; No, they count for things which go off when you kill/knock to 0 a foe, so that should be no different (in those terms) than bloodying a foe. Unless you don't think dropping a minion fires off the warlock's pact (and similar things). That is not a debate I have seen, but I think thats because almost everyone sees them as triggering these abilities.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 16, 2010 - 12:46PM
#56
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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to Fitz: when you say hand waving are you referring to the statements by Wizards that minions do trigger pact boons which have a trigger of "when reduced to 0 HP". Is that the "hand waving you mean?
That's exactly the hand-waving I mean. "Statements by Wizards" isn't proof of anything. If you have some specific statements, show them. Then we can judge the the validity of them based on the source quoted.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 16, 2010 - 1:19PM
#57
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Date Joined:
Apr 24, 2002
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Temp hit points don't do a minion any good. It is destroyed if it takes any damage. Damage that reduces temp hit points is still taking damage.
This is incorrect. http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ask/20080926 Q: Can minions gain temporary hit points? If so, does it affect them the same way it does normal monsters? A: Minions can gain temporary hit points, which must be dealt with before characters can actually damage and kill them.
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Is it? I thought a monster that is reduced to 0 hit points of fewer is dead.
Meanwhile, a minion is destroyed. That's not necessarily the same thing, and it may preclude the minion actually reducing it's hit points to 0.
So far all I've seen as evidence is some hand waving about pact boons, but that's not necessarily proof of anything.
PHB 295 Monsters and characters controlled by the Dungeon Master usually die when they reach 0 hit points, unless you choose to knock them out All minions have 1 hp in their entries and when it takes damage it dies or is destroyed. To insist or infer that destroyed is not the same thing as dead for all intents and purposes, is a bit overextending interpretations of the matter. If you deal 10 damage to a minion, it was reduced to 0 or lower hp and is dead/destroyed, period. If you really believe that minions are different from monsters, why on earth would a minion require any hp at all in their entries? It shouldn't, but 1 hp is listed in a minion's stat block, trumping your logic. Also, the quote shown above from the temp hp question shows that minions = killed when reduced to 0 hp, which can or is the same thing as destroyed. Unless you're going to consider a minion an object, destroyed is considered to be the same thing as dead/killed/etc. Now, in regards to minions being bloodied, there is no bloodied entry in any minion stat block that I've seen to date. Since minions don't have a bloodied value listed per se, technically you can't bloody a minion. But if I killed a goblin minion by chopping his head off with a sword, it seems very non-sensical that I could not use an effect/power that triggers off bloodied. This is because, I'm pretty sure that the remains of said minion would defiantly be bloodied if that occurred. 
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3 years ago ::
Feb 16, 2010 - 1:26PM
#58
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Date Joined:
Jan 25, 2010
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That's exactly the hand-waving I mean. "Statements by Wizards" isn't proof of anything. If you have some specific statements, show them. Then we can judge the the validity of them based on the source quoted.
You don't have to declare abstinence from the debate- You could just not comment on it.
I think that urza probably thought you were being a little condescending here, which I honestly did - I thought the point I raised about minions on 0HP was a perfectly valid one.
If the errata from Wizards already quoted about pact boon triggers on minions isn't proof of anything, you might as well dismiss the sourcebooks as equally meaningless, seeing as that is what is being updated in the errata.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 16, 2010 - 1:28PM
#59
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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This is incorrect. http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ask/20080926
Q: Can minions gain temporary hit points? If so, does it affect them the same way it does normal monsters?
A: Minions can gain temporary hit points, which must be dealt with before characters can actually damage and kill them.
This would only be the case if you consider temporary hit points to be not real "damage", or damage that doesn't ever actually occur to the creature (which is instead absorbed by the temp hit points). It's an argument I can buy though.
PHB 295 Monsters and characters controlled by the Dungeon Master usually die when they reach 0 hit points, unless you choose to knock them out All minions have 1 hp in their entries and when it takes damage it dies or is destroyed. To insist or infer that destroyed is not the same thing as dead for all intents and purposes, is a bit overextending interpretations of the matter.
Both the quote you provided and the first statement you made presuppose that minions actually take hit point damage, as opposed to instantly being destroyed. And nothing indicates that destroyed is the same as dead.
I'm don't object to minions taking damage and being reduced to 0 hit points, and that reducing them to "dead". It is probably RAI. But given the sloppy wording in a couple of places, I feel forced to question it.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 5:59AM
#60
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2009
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I agree with Fitz that destroyed and dead are different. Otherwise it would say that minions were dead when they take damage. Since they say they are destroyed instead means there is a difference. And then there is healing to consider. If an enemy heals a minion, does it come back to life? No because it was destroyed. I do believe that they are reduced to 0 hit points so they trigger pact boons and the like but do not think they can be knocked unconscious. When the take damage, lethal or not, they are destroyed.
As far as bloodied, until wotc specifically says otherwise I am going to rule that minions do not become bloodied for two reasons:
1) I do not believe it is in the best interests of the game. I think triggering things that happen when reduced to 0 hp is enough, also triggering "when a creature becomes bloodied" effects is too powerful of a reward for hitting a minion. Especially when it would cause a chain like in the op. They nerfed the Rod of corruption/rod of reaving combo for just that reason.
2) It is not currently RAW and I am not convinced it is RAI. It says a monster is bloodied when reduced to it's bloodied value or lower, and then explains how they determined the bloodied value. But the point is, unlike every other monster, minions do not have a bloodied value, and so they can not become bloodied. If wotc wanted minion to become bloodied, I believe it would have said that when they take damage they are bloodied and destroyed.
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