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Switch to Forum Live View Holy Symbols for the non-divine (or cheesing a free item slot)
3 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2010 - 10:27PM #1
mellored
Date Joined: Jul 8, 2008
Posts: 19,458
Even if you never cast a spell though a holy symbol, it doesn't mean their useless to you.  Sure the vast majority have "when you hit with this symbol", but there's still some good uses to get out of it (and i don't mean makeing an improvised attack with one).

Note that you actually have to be able to use a holy symbol inorder to benifit, you may need to spend a feat.  But if you've already MC'd cleric for a once per day heal, or are an Str-cleric/avenger that takes no impliment powers, then look here for more bonuses.

I'm assuming that daily item powers arn't in high demand.

*Needs to worship a specific deity.
! Not (just) a daily power.

*Nonagon of Kol Korran (EPG) (lvl 2):  Near impossible to control, but you only need the lvl 2 version.

*Ontatar's Forge  (EPG) (lvl 2): Cheap versions don't add much.  It also only works for weapons, which limit's it's use with big area attacks.

Symbol of Excellence (365) (lvl 2): Solid boost, especially in the later levels.

Symbol of Life (PHB) (lvl 2): Good for leaders who arn't using their daily's for anythign else.

*Leaves of Death (EPG) (lvl 3): Controlable, often just when you need it.

!*Psalter of Aureon (EPG) (lvl 3): Skill bonus, but not to great skills.

Symbol of Hope (PHB) (lvl 3): Carry around several +1's.

Symbol of the Dragon (365) (lvl 3): Good effect, but looses potentcy over levels.

!Symbol of the Holy Nimbus (AV2) (lvl 4): Usefull for Str clerics, though pretty much useless for anyone else

!Symbol of Daring
(AV2) (lvl 5): Nice boots, though you need to keep it somewhat leveled to keep the effect noticeable.

!Symbol of Scorned Fate (388) (lvl 5): A round about way to get an "extra" saving throw, good for anyone.

!*Spirit Reliquary (EPG) (lvl 7): Also has a small passive bonus as well as a useable daily. The only offensive one for yourself.

!Symbol of Gajz (AV2) (lvl 7): Only for the set bonus.  Carry around 5 for skill challenges.

Symbol of Shared Healing (AV2) (lvl 7): Good for parties with no leaders.

*Hearth of Boldrei (EPG) (lvl 8): Doesn't do anything worthwhile, and it doesn't always do it.

!*Sheaf of Arawai (EPG) (lvl 8): Fun RP property, the daily is slightly better then the symbol of hope.

!Candle of Invocation (MME) (lvl 8): Encounter Skill boost.  Better leveled, but still useful at 8.  Gold for skill focused campaigns.

!Symbol of the Champions Code (AV2) (lvl 8): Might take a bit to set-up, but you can effectivly stun a creature.  The property is for paladins only.

!Symbol of Courage (365) (lvl 9): A bit too situaltional.

Symbol of Unified Defense (AV2) (lvl 9): Could be a pretty big boost, but it's a bit situational.

Symbol of Victory (PHB) (lvl 9): Hard to beat an extra action.

*Domino of Olladra (EPG) (lvl 10): The odds arn't usualy in your favor, however if you got a PP/ED or something that let's you pre-roll a d20 (sage of ages), or someone hit's on a 3, then you can just hand out crits.

!Necklace of Prayer Beads (MME) (lvl 10) (rare): Nice and versitile, and as an encounter.

!Convert's Symbol (AV2) (lvl 13): No handed arcane impliment has it's uses.  It's daily is usefull for emergencies, but it's not a good oppertunity cost.

!Symbol of Secruity (MotP) (lvl 13): Has it's uses, just not often.

*The Fearcatcher (D 390) (lvl 13): Massive bonus to intimidate.

!Phylactery of Faithfulness (MME) (lvl 14) (rare): Negate an attack per encounter.  Slightly Better leveled.

!Symbol of Divine Light (AV2) (lvl 17): It's pretty useless, unless you (or an ally) build around radiant damage/vunerability.

Symbol of Sustanance (AV) (lvl 17): Keep someone Stunned for another turn.

Symbol of Defense (AV2) (lvl 18): Very good and likely to be usefull, carry a few of them when they become cheap.

Symbol of Reflection (AV2) (lvl 24): Would be sky blue if it was cheaper.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter.  With some warlord stuff.  Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch   Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1.  If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation.  5 of these will end anything.  Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways.  Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit.  Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones.  Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2010 - 10:49PM #2
Nox_Noctis
Date Joined: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 755
May I suggest source (book, magazine) references?
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2010 - 11:20PM #3
Dirge-Overdrive
Date Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 2,247
Symbol of Gajz doesn't seem like it should be on this list.

Symbol of Security could be rated higher: it's an immediate reaction encounter power, so not much cost to use.  For the right party it could be frequently useful.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2010 - 11:25PM #4
Melos
Date Joined: Nov 7, 2005
Posts: 1,444

Feb 13, 2010 -- 10:27PM, mellored wrote:


*Domino of Ollander (lvl 10): The odds arn't in your favor, however if you got a PP/ED or something that let's you pre-roll a d20 (sage of ages), then you can just hand out crits.



It is Domino of Olladra, and it would work well with Dice of Auspicious Fortune from Dragon 381.

Also, I think you should add a note to let people know that they need to be a Paladin, Cleric, or Avenger, or multiclass to one of those classes in order to use a holy symbol's powers and properties (PH page 236).

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2010 - 2:28AM #5
warrl
Date Joined: Apr 16, 2009
Posts: 5,267
I did some playing around with a martial defender/striker hybrid and  the following holy symbols: Orb of Light, Ioun Stone of Divine  Knowledge, and Symbol of Defense. The Character Builder thinks this works - if the character is wielding the holy symbol, not just wearing it in the Symbol slot.

For whatever that's worth.

I found the following symbols with interesting properties (I didn't look at powers.)
  • Convert's Symbol (13, AV2) is of interest to Arcane implement users.
  • Ioun Stone of Divine Knowledge (25, AV2) enhances Int-based skill   checks.
  • Orb of Light (Heroic, Open Grave) gives you the Supernal language.
  • *Psalter of Aureon (3, Eberron Player) enhances knowledge-skill   checks.
  • *Sheaf of Arawai (8, Eberron Player) excuses you from meals.
  • *Spirit Reliquary (7, Eberron Player) enhances saves against charm   and fear effects.
  • Symbol of Courage (9, Dragon 365) enhances saves against fear.
  • Symbol of Daring (5, AV2) enhances your allies' action-point   attacks.
  • Symbol of Divine Light (17, AV2) increases - but does not create -   vulnerability to radiant damage in an area around you.
  • Symbol of the Radiant Flame (8, AV2) is of interest to Primal   implement users.
  • Talisman of Al'Akbar (Paragon, DMG2) enhances all healing   you do to other characters. Including the Heal skill check.

Hm... since I'm wielding this holy symbol... suppose I use it as an improvised weapon and hit an enemy with it. Does that count as "hit with an attack delivered by this implement"? If so, then see *Fist of Kord, Symbol of Dedication, Symbol of Perseverance, Symbol of Renewal, Symbol of Reproach, and Symbol of Resilience. The Symbol of Perseverance is particularly nice, as it would allow my fighter|ranger hybrid to bring a dying ally back into combat - without anyone even spending a healing surge.

I would guess that won't work though.

We could apply the same sort of logic and find interesting properties of other implements too.

Ki Focus:
  • Hawk's Talon (14, Dragon 382) helps charging.

Orbs:
  • Moran's Eye (14, King of the Trollhaunt Warrens) enhances Arcana checks. (Note: you still have to wield it.)
  • Orb of Judicious Conjuration (3, AV) might be of interest to any sort of caster with conjuration spells.
  • Orb of the Planes (23, Planes) would be of interest in multiplanar campaigns, particularly to ritual casters.
  • Skull of Sartine (Assault on Nightwyrm Forest) gives +2 History, Darkvision, resist 10 necrotic, resist 10 fire

Rods:
  • Arkhosian Scepter (12, Races:Dragonborn) is something any Dragonborn with a free hand should want.
  • Pelor's Scepter (29, AV2) is for divine casters that favor radiant damage; it makes their radiant attacks (through the rod) Brutal.
  • Rod of Dispater (28, Planes) is a fully functioning heavy mace with a push/daze effect and an acid-spitting effect.
  • Rod of Seven Parts (DMG2) enhances your healing powers and selected skills. When you have all seven parts it becomes a melee weapon.

Staffs:
  • Audaviator (Epic, Kingdom of the Ghouls) lets you reduce forced movement, enhances Arcana, and has a couple of teleportation-related properties.
  • Battle Staff (4, Eberron Player) has extended crit range when used as a melee weapon.
  • Crook of Remembrance (18, Dragon 377) enhances Insight and Intimidate.
  • Defensive Staff (2, AV) enhances Fort, Ref, and Will.
  • Mnemonic Staff (2, AV) enhances monster-knowledge skill checks.
  • Staff of Corrosion (18, AV) adds 1d6 acid damage to melee hits.
  • Staff of Earthen Might (3, Dungeon 171) enhances Athletics checks and Strength skill checks under certain conditions.
  • Staff of the Serpent (7, AV) adds 1d6 poison damage to melee hits.
  • Summoner's Staff (7, AV2) helps any summoner.

Tomes:
  • Tome of Forty Steps (3, Arcane Power) enhances speed of your summoned creatures.

Totems:
  • Fickle Twilight Totem (9, Eberron Player) enhances Bluff and Stealth.
  • Oalian's Balance Totem (2, Eberron Player) enhances Diplomacy and Nature.
  • Totem of Enduring Vigilance (9, Eberron Player) enhances Arcana and Perception.
  • Totem of the Harrier's Claws (12, AV2) gives you combat advantage over creatures taking ongoing damage.
  • Totem of the Night (12, AV2) gives low-light vision; if you already have that, it gives darkvision.
  • Watchful Spirit Totem (3, PH2) enhances Perception.
  • Wildfire Totem (4, AV2) enhances saves against ongoing Fire damage.

Wands:
  • Iron Wand (24, AV2) enhances Strength for breaking certain objects.

Now since you (apparently) have to actually wield these things to get any use from them, most of them (excluding some of the staffs and rods) would be an awful nuisance for most characters to use in combat. So I see them being more useful in skill challenges. How common are those in your game? In the game I'm in they are quite frequent; I could see my character wandering around for days with a Crook of Remembrance in one hand and an Oalian's Balance Totem in the other, hardly touching his swords. And your healbot needs a Talisman of Al'Akbar.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2010 - 3:03AM #6
Melos
Date Joined: Nov 7, 2005
Posts: 1,444
For implements, you only gain the benefits of their properties and powers if you are a member of a class that can use them as an implement.  Unless of course the item specifies otherwise, like the Arkhosian Scepter.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2010 - 8:57AM #7
Dirge-Overdrive
Date Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 2,247

Feb 14, 2010 -- 3:03AM, Melos wrote:

For implements, you only gain the benefits of their properties and powers if you are a member of a class that can use them as an implement.  Unless of course the item specifies otherwise, like the Arkhosian Scepter.




Agreed.

I thought the base assumption was that this was for characters that have MC'd into a divine class, but who don't actually plan to use a holy symbol.  I see now that wasn't actually stated. 

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2010 - 10:27AM #8
Imperius
Date Joined: Oct 7, 2008
Posts: 438
Wasn't it also said carrying multiple implements would cause them all not to work or something along those lines?
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2010 - 10:28AM #9
Dielzen
Date Joined: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1,505
PHB pg 236


Holy Symbols
If you are a member of a class that can use a holy symbol as an implement, you can apply the enhancement bonus of a holy symbol to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of any of your powers from that class that have the implement keyword, and you can use a holy symbol’s properties and powers. Members of other classes gain no benefit from wearing or holding a holy symbol.
A holy symbol represents your deity and takes the shape of an aspect of the god. (See pages 21–22 for the symbols of the good, lawful good, and unaligned deities.) As with most other implements, you can’t make melee attacks with a holy symbol.
Unlike other implements, you need only to wear a holy symbol for its property or power to function. If you are wearing or holding more than one holy symbol, none of your symbols function.




Emphasis mine

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2010 - 4:58PM #10
mellored
Date Joined: Jul 8, 2008
Posts: 19,458
Guess i missed that fact.  I'll have to make a note of it up top.  Still it's nice to have a list of usefull items to hang around your neck.

Symbol of Gajz doesn't seem like it should be on this list.



It's there for it's set bonus.  Of course having everyone MC to a divine class might be a bit much, so i'll knock it down to purple.

Symbol of Security could be rated higher: it's an immediate reaction encounter power, so not much cost to use.  For the right party it could be frequently useful.


Yes it's an encounter, but i don't see it being usefull enough.  If you had lots of other dialy item uses then it could be more usefull, but that's still a purple (not usefull in most cases).

guides Show
my builds Show

F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter.  With some warlord stuff.  Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch   Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1.  If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation.  5 of these will end anything.  Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways.  Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit.  Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones.  Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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