I was halfway thinking to start a new topic about this, but hopefully it's not too rude to ask here: just how viable is a Swordmage/Sorcerer hybrid-classed character?
I know that such a character, as with any multi-role hybrid, is best used as a "fifth wheel" character (aka, the party should have a solid Defender and a solid Striker, because he won't be as good at either), but I was just wondering how well the two classes meshed. I figured on kneejerk instinct that the Swordmage could mesh well with a Dragon or (Storm?) Sorcerer, given that both classes use Strength and Intelligence as their primary stats, and the Sorcerer adds some interesting burst, blast or even ranged spells to the Swordmage's arsenal - not to mention those "daggermage" spells from that issue of Dragon - but I'm not exactly an experienced optimiser.
I was halfway thinking to start a new topic about this, but hopefully it's not too rude to ask here: just how viable is a Swordmage/Sorcerer hybrid-classed character?
I know that such a character, as with any multi-role hybrid, is best used as a "fifth wheel" character (aka, the party should have a solid Defender and a solid Striker, because he won't be as good at either), but I was just wondering how well the two classes meshed. I figured on kneejerk instinct that the Swordmage could mesh well with a Dragon or (Storm?) Sorcerer, given that both classes use Strength and Intelligence as their primary stats, and the Sorcerer adds some interesting burst, blast or even ranged spells to the Swordmage's arsenal - not to mention those "daggermage" spells from that issue of Dragon - but I'm not exactly an experienced optimiser.
Sorcerers use Charisma, not Intelligence, which throws a big wrench in this. In order to function at all, it would need to be CHA/INT dual primary, but then you'd be neglecting STR so hard that the sorcerer's damage mechanic would be pretty irrelevant, at which point the sorcerer's power selection pales in comparison to the Wizard's.
Also, Swordmages really have no use for STR. Even Assault can use INT for MBAs (and assault is a striker mechanic, not a defender mechanic) with the Intelligent Blademaster feat. So you'd be gaining access to an extra set of powers, but losing durability and riders in the process. I wouldn't.
Swordmage|Wizard can be incredible, though, whether youre building INT/CON or INT/STR (in which case go genasi!).
Might want to update the runepriest post. Serene opened up alot of options, adding defense to alot of builds. Wis to AC and a large amount of THP generation is just superb, possibly even amazing.
Serene|Avenger/Hammer of vengence is a top build. Serene|Fighter or Serene|Ranger are pretty good too. Serene|Swarm druid is basicly unkillable in heroic.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Might want to update the runepriest post. Serene opened up alot of options, adding defense to alot of builds. Wis to AC and a large amount of THP generation is just superb, possibly even amazing.
Serene|Avenger/Hammer of vengence is a top build. Serene|Fighter or Serene|Ranger are pretty good too. Serene|Swarm druid is basicly unkillable in heroic.
I think it is sky blue, but nowhere near Gold for a variety of reasons. The advantage of BCL Cleric is overall better imo. Base 19 AC vs likely 18 AC and the ability to use either Str or Wis for attack instead of specifically Str while needing Wis for AC.
They also don't generate that many temp hit points. 4-9 per round is definitely solid, but not equivalent to say honored foe.
The other problem is that I think Runepriest is the kind of class where I'd be hesitant to recommend playing it even to some experienced players I know - I wouldn't doubt their capability to play a tactical striker, but Runepriest has arbitrary situational features. To a certain extent, that's not really relevant, but I think a gold option should almost play itself.
Might want to update the runepriest post. Serene opened up alot of options, adding defense to alot of builds. Wis to AC and a large amount of THP generation is just superb, possibly even amazing.
Serene|Avenger/Hammer of vengence is a top build. Serene|Fighter or Serene|Ranger are pretty good too. Serene|Swarm druid is basicly unkillable in heroic.
I think it is sky blue, but nowhere near Gold for a variety of reasons. The advantage of BCL Cleric is overall better imo. Base 19 AC vs likely 18 AC and the ability to use either Str or Wis for attack instead of specifically Str while needing Wis for AC.
They also don't generate that many temp hit points. 4-9 per round is definitely solid, but not equivalent to say honored foe.
THP is 4-19. (5+ in paragon, 10+ in epic). Took nearly the entire 4e run, but they finally figued out how to scale things.
But your right that runepriest are tricker to play, and it does lock you into 2 stats. Though dumping Str isn't the worst choice, and at least serene|avenger/hammer of vengence is gold.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I was halfway thinking to start a new topic about this, but hopefully it's not too rude to ask here: just how viable is a Swordmage/Sorcerer hybrid-classed character?
I know that such a character, as with any multi-role hybrid, is best used as a "fifth wheel" character (aka, the party should have a solid Defender and a solid Striker, because he won't be as good at either), but I was just wondering how well the two classes meshed. I figured on kneejerk instinct that the Swordmage could mesh well with a Dragon or (Storm?) Sorcerer, given that both classes use Strength and Intelligence as their primary stats, and the Sorcerer adds some interesting burst, blast or even ranged spells to the Swordmage's arsenal - not to mention those "daggermage" spells from that issue of Dragon - but I'm not exactly an experienced optimiser.
Sorcerers use Charisma, not Intelligence, which throws a big wrench in this. In order to function at all, it would need to be CHA/INT dual primary, but then you'd be neglecting STR so hard that the sorcerer's damage mechanic would be pretty irrelevant, at which point the sorcerer's power selection pales in comparison to the Wizard's.
Yeah, I think that one would have massive problems as they're almost the least compatible classes out there. Swordmages use their primary stat for AC, so they don't need Str to AC. Sorcerers need Cha+Str or Dex, or they're going to be very far behind their damage curve.
The one real option is to abuse Flame Spiral somehow - where you use Flame Spiral, knowing that you'll likely miss, but odds are that you'll force someone to re-enter your space. But there's nothing particularly amazing about Swordmage's capabilities there.
I'd go Sorcerer|Paladin or Swordmage|Warlock if you really like one of those two classes. And in every case, you're spending your hybrid talent feat on the Defender's AC option at 1st level. If you feel comfortable with complexity, Sorcerer|Fighter where you spend the feat on AC can be very solid - the signature move is Flame Spiral followed by AP'ing for Come And Get It, which results in a minimum of 4 damage rolls on multiple targets - Flame Spiral, Come And Get It, Flame Spiral's extra on your turn, and Flame Spiral's extra on the start of their next turn. And any forced movement on your friends' turns can trigger it again...
But you need to be able to consistently mark, too.
Versatile still provides weaplement expertise with both choices. You likely want "White Lotus Dueling Expertise" for arcane|arcane hybrids anyway, but Versatile (Dagger,club) will apply to both your weapon and implement attacks with the dagger.
I think there was a point at the time of the original hybrid handbook where there was Expertise(Dagger) that had a bonus at 11/21 and Versatile still had the 15/25. That's obviously long dead.
But your right that runepriest are tricker to play, and it does lock you into 2 stats. Though dumping Str isn't the worst choice, and at least serene|avenger/hammer of vengence is gold.
I'm not really that fond of hammer of vengeance.
You need to be constantly entering Runestate in order to gain the ability to do an easily triggered immediate. Easily triggered immediates aren't in that short of a supply and needing to spend minor actions(or worse use Runepriest standard actions) to go into Runestate is expensive in the first couple of rounds of combat. And you need to buy your AC back because you lost Armor of Faith and Hide Armor.
I'd rather use Avenger|Cleric in that scenario without the Hammer of Vengeance. Scale+2 AC for free, still have hybrid talent feat available to pick up something.
But your right that runepriest are tricker to play, and it does lock you into 2 stats. Though dumping Str isn't the worst choice, and at least serene|avenger/hammer of vengence is gold.
I'm not really that fond of hammer of vengeance.
You need to be constantly entering Runestate in order to gain the ability to do an easily triggered immediate. Easily triggered immediates aren't in that short of a supply and needing to spend minor actions(or worse use Runepriest standard actions) to go into Runestate is expensive in the first couple of rounds of combat. And you need to buy your AC back because you lost Armor of Faith and Hide Armor.
I'd rather use Avenger|Cleric in that scenario without the Hammer of Vengeance. Scale+2 AC for free, still have hybrid talent feat available to pick up something.
It's tricky to use, sure. And you need your allies in on the action, but you should be focus firing anyways.
I don't know why you'd be afraid of using your standard for a runepriest power. They have some nice powers. Which you can then captitalize on (vuln 4 -> fury's advance -> Ally's attack -> overwhelming strike). Even if you miss, you setup your runestate.
Anyways, even without HoV, runepriest should mention serene. Very nice for several builds.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I built a fighter|runepriest/mc cleric/tactical warpriest that you could only teleport away from. Add in the magic weapon that prevents teleport and you could not get away or move a square unless he allowed you.
Mark with: MBA RBA Word of Diminishment Cleave(take either impending doom or deft hurler and mark both targets)
Your main mark would be through tactical warpriest. You would hybrid for combat superiority. Combat superiority states that it stops any movement on an OA if movement provoked the OA. The L16 ability of Tactical Warpriest states that you get an OA if the creature you marked shifted, so you would stop the target. Due to combat superiority, you would have an increased chance to hit the marked target, and with focused superiority and HBO, you would be able to use Word of Diminishment as your mark punishment which can renew the mark and cause them to get vulnerable all damage and increase vulnerable to OAs.
You would be wearing scale and using a light shield unless you spent a feat for heavy shield. But it is best with a dwarf and a kopesh because then you get to use the axe feats for OAs and dwarven thrower enchant if you wish so you can mark from range after L16.
The temp HP would help extend his life and he would have the runepriest powers to heal as well. He could even take protective scroll and load up on scrolls and get the bonus to defenses as well. Since he is a dwarf he could take dwarven durability to have +con to his surges and more surges for protective scroll.
