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Apr 3, 2010 -- 11:49AM, Polaris wrote:

In all honesty I'd probably rate the Paladin|Invoker as black rather than purple or red. The big problem is the Paladin's primary stat (either Cha or Str...likely Cha I think) doesn't synergize well with the Invoker side of the class, and the Invoker Implements don't have a weapliment other than staff and no easy way to make them into one becuase neither power source is arcane (but a holy avenger or other holy-symbol/weapon would work well here).

Nevertheless, this is a case where the hybrid from each class helps fill in the holes in the other class which makes it better than it would seem at first.

-Polaris

Stat line-ups are the biggest issue for controller/defender hybrids, IMO. Most core defenders use STR as a primary or secondary; not many controllers use STR. Most controllers use INT as a primary or secondary. Result is that the number of Defender/Controller combinations with great or good stat synergy (secondary as primary for both classes, or shared primaries) are low. The other issue is the weapon/implement juggling, since defenders all use melee weapons, and not all controllers have easy weaplement access.

You have Swordmage - not a PHBX class - which can play very nicely with wizards and psions thanks to a shared primary.

You have Seeker, which can play the WIS/STR game with Paladins, Wardens, and Fighters (Minotaur or Longtooth shifter to boost both of those - Minotaur if you want to shop for racial feats, since Minotaurs have about twice as many racial feats).

You have Battlemind, which can play the CON/WIS game with Druids and Invokers (Dwarves for double 18s and great feat support). Aside from that, you're going to have to deal with MAD.

All too often, you have a shield/weapon/implement trilemma (2-handed weaplement and no shield, weapon and shield but stowed implement, implement and shield but stowed weapon). I don't think Battlemind/Invoker works appreciably better than Invoker/Paladin, even if the stat synergy is better.

Apr 3, 2010 -- 8:31PM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

That's not what it actually says. That's what seems like the only possible rational interpretation, but that's not the RAW.

"Functions as the battlemind class feature except that you must choose either blurred step or mind spike."

I.e., instead of getting both. It says absolutely nothing about not having Battlemind's Demand and therefore you do indeed have Battlemind's Demand.

Simple logic.

"GAIN {A,B,C}, except you must choose B or C."

Nothing is said about A positively or negatively. However, in referring to the entire set, it is implicitly present unless explicitly exempted.

It is similar to the Channel Divinity features. The classes with Channel Divinity gain two things. First, the ability to Channel Divinity once per encounter. Second, the option to use (X) list of Channel Divinity powers when they Channel Divinity. However, the fact that either the power B or power C is exempted is irrelevant to the fact that the class has gained A -  a Channel Divinity class feature allowing them to use one of any CD power within their list (from classes/feats/etc) once per encounter.

It is similar to Combat Challenge. Combat Challenge allows the use of a MBA under certain circumstances (A), and also allows B the application of a mark under certain circumstances (a non-fighter attack is used which hits the target) and C the application of a mark under certain other circumstances (a fighter power is used which hits the target). B is excluded. However, A, not being mentioned in the exceptions clause, is left untouched.

Psionic Defense, like those other class features, is a three part package. Core item A, contingent item B, contingent item C, restriction to one contingent item as a hybridized feature.

The phrasing of the sentence is potentially the slightest bit ambiguous, especially if you were reading the hybrid class in isolation, sideways, and on a "WOTC HAS MESSED UP BATTLEMINDS TERRIBLY" rant and assuming it had to be broken, but as you say, the only possible rational interpretation is that Demand is left untouched. No other interpretation comes even close to passing the smell test.

And therefore, that is indeed the RAW. Battlemind's Demand is present in conjunction with either Blurred Step or Mind Spike. It is that simple.

Apr 3, 2010 -- 9:15PM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

Apr 3, 2010 -- 9:01PM, tjhairball wrote:

Simple logic.

"GAIN {A,B,C}, except you must choose B or C."

Except it doesn't say gain or get...it says functions. It is not actually implicit that you get A.

"This feature functions as the battlemind class feature" - and the class feature entails gaining set {A,B,C} of at-will abilities - "except that you must choose either blurred step or mind spike."

First part, unwound: "You gain set {A,B,C} of at-will abilities."
Second part, unwound: "Except you must choose between B and C."

It is indeed implicit that you gain A.