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Apr 2, 2010 -- 11:13PM, tjhairball wrote:

Same sort of thing that my Barbarian/Wizard gained. For three-person parties that omit defender, parties whose defenders are generally incompetent or not focused on defending, or clever DMs who focus artillery fire on squishy controllers, that is positively great.

Or in other words:

Feb 3, 2010 -- 7:38PM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

Wizards:
Summary: Easy mixing with other classes, especially Int, Wis, Con, or Cha.

Yes, Wizards are great. They're Sky Blue. They'd be Gold if a couple of other classes didn't exist or if people sometimes don't want to play a controller. Arcane Implement Proficiency and their status as top tier controllers definitely makes that happen. That doesn't make Defender|Controllers a particularly good idea when the Controller part is not a Wizard or the Defender part is not a Swordmage(another Sky Blue class) - the Controller part dings the Defender too much and the Defender robs vital at-wills, encounters, and dailies from the Controller.

Apr 3, 2010 -- 8:28AM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

Defenders are up. Clarified a couple of the controller ratings. One thing to note about the psionic classes is that they can end up with 2 at-wills from the psionic class as opposed to just one. Assuming there are some decent choices, that can be a big deal.

It's worth noting in the case of the hybrid Paladin, that you can fix the worst problem with the Paladin (it's copious use of weapon powers) for the cost of a single feat:  Arcane Implement Proficiency (light/heavy blade) if the other side of your hybrid is an arcane class.  This works particularly well for warlocks and sorcerers (esp warlocks).

Add in an entire line of "crimson" feats from dragon that are specifically designed to support the Paladin|warlock, and this one problem you mention becomes a lot less noticable (and in my own play experience basically dissapears).

It's also worth noting that some weapons (like holy avengers) act as both weapon and holy symbol and thus should under the hybrid rules act as implements for both classes.  The reverse is true for the Paladin|Warlock for such things as pact blades I should think.  I am normally not fond of making a class dependant on a single item, but there it is.

-Polaris

Apr 3, 2010 -- 11:27AM, tjhairball wrote:

Apr 3, 2010 -- 4:39AM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

That doesn't make Defender|Controllers a particularly good idea when the Controller part is not a Wizard or the Defender part is not a Swordmage(another Sky Blue class) - the Controller part dings the Defender too much and the Defender robs vital at-wills, encounters, and dailies from the Controller.

Such as, say, Invoker/Paladin? Slotless implement, gold standard AC, leader hit points with excellent 8+CON starting healing surges, similarly non-terrible stat synergy (Invoker primary = Paladin secondary riders), and your marks - which do little more than apply a -2 hit penalty, frankly, the punishment is but a meager tickle for hybrid paladins - can be applied at a range of 5 and maintained very easily with ranged attacks?

I would go as far to say as that combination is probably not purple or red, as the CharOp board communicates things.

In all honesty I'd probably rate the Paladin|Invoker as black rather than purple or red. The big problem is the Paladin's primary stat (either Cha or Str...likely Cha I think) doesn't synergize well with the Invoker side of the class, and the Invoker Implements don't have a weapliment other than staff and no easy way to make them into one becuase neither power source is arcane (but a holy avenger or other holy-symbol/weapon would work well here).

Nevertheless, this is a case where the hybrid from each class helps fill in the holes in the other class which makes it better than it would seem at first.

-Polaris