Also, this is a thread for the upcoming PH3 classes and races, not for Dark Sun, so, since we've reached an impasse in the discussion maybe it's time to bring it back to Shardmind, Runepriest, Battlemind, and whatnot.
Shardmind: I'm somewhat disappointed that it is a "crystaline" race without a +Con (we think?). Just a personal thing, but given that all of the races associated with mountains or stone or rock (dwarves, goliaths, warforged - though the last only because they're made out of it ) get a Con boost, it feels strange that the race made out of a rock doesn't get that boost. Not a deal-breaker, by any means - just... strange to me.
Runepriest: I'll have to actually see it to figure out how I feel. As it stands now though, my gut reaction is "meh" - more "meh," even, than the Avenger, Invoker and Warden. But again, I'll have to see more (a lot more) on it to really get beyond that initial gut reaction.
Battlemind: Totally undecided. I'll have to see more. I'm hoping that it appeals to me more than the Warden, but... *shrugs*. I don't see it being something I like as much this edition as I liked the Psychic Warrior last edition (but that's mostly because the Fighter is, this time, so spectacularly awesome).
Whatnot: So the classes are... Ardent, Battlemind, Monk, Psion, Runepriest, and Seeker? And the races are Gith, Shardmind, Minotaur, and... something else? Plus Hybrid rules. It's... Hm. PH3 is shaping up to be one of those books I buy - but I won't be entirely happy about it. Of the content we've seen so far, I'm looking forward to... Monk (which surprises me a bit; like the Bard in PH2, it's a class I really didn't care for before, but love this time around) and Psion. Shardmind (kind of). And Hybrid rules.
Gah. That... doesn't seem like a lot of content when I actually commit it to text. For the PH2, I was looking forward to the Barbarian, Bard, Druid, and Shaman. Then Half-Orc and Gnome. And backgrounds.
No, i'm not so obviously wrong, seeing as I'm agreeing with WotC.
You should know by now that appeal to authority doesn't work on me. ^_~
WotC does not agree with you Crimson. They have shown it time and again.
Do you mean when they didn't give Tieflings a CON bonus? Or do you mean when they didn't give Drow a WIS bonus? Or maybe it was when they didn't give Gnomes a DEX bonus? Or could it have been when they didn't give Dwarves a STR bonus? When they didn't give Kalashtar an INT bonus? When they didn't give Deva a CHA bonus? When they didn't give Half-Orc a CON bonus? Because all of that sounds an awful lot like they agree with me and that the Mul are out of place for being contrary to what WotC has done in the past.
Shardmind: I'm somewhat disappointed that it is a "crystaline" race without a +Con (we think?). Just a personal thing, but given that all of the races associated with mountains or stone or rock (dwarves, goliaths, warforged - though the last only because they're made out of it ) get a Con boost, it feels strange that the race made out of a rock doesn't get that boost. Not a deal-breaker, by any means - just... strange to me.
Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha
Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.
Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Shardmind: I'm somewhat disappointed that it is a "crystaline" race without a +Con (we think?). Just a personal thing, but given that all of the races associated with mountains or stone or rock (dwarves, goliaths, warforged - though the last only because they're made out of it ) get a Con boost, it feels strange that the race made out of a rock doesn't get that boost. Not a deal-breaker, by any means - just... strange to me.
Maybe they're made of Talc? ^_^
Or just something more akin to glass. But still, I'd have prefered it to be +Con/+Whatever.
No, i'm not so obviously wrong, seeing as I'm agreeing with WotC.
You should know by now that appeal to authority doesn't work on me. ^_~
I'm stating facts, not appealing to anything.
WotC does not agree with you Crimson. They have shown it time and again.
Do you mean when they didn't give Tieflings a CON bonus? Or do you mean when they didn't give Drow a WIS bonus? Or maybe it was when they didn't give Gnomes a DEX bonus? Or could it have been when they didn't give Dwarves a STR bonus? When they didn't give Kalashtar an INT bonus? When they didn't give Deva a CHA bonus? When they didn't give Half-Orc a CON bonus? Because all of that sounds an awful lot like they agree with me and that the Mul are out of place for being contrary to what WotC has done in the past.
*skims* numerous and sundry rants on the Minotaur, Gnoll, Small size, etc.* Yeah .... you keep believing that.
Of course, you're also ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no fluff reason to give a Kalashtar an Int bonus, no fluff reason to give the Deva a Cha bonus (Deva have actually been refluffed, Muls have not), and the fluff fully and completely supports the Half-Orc Dex bonus, and not a Con bonus.
Drow having a Cha bonus instead of Wis makes perect sense. Gnomes having Cha/Int makes perfect sense. Tieflings being Cha/Con would have been better, but Cha/Int still makes perfect sense. Leaving out one bonus when 3 make sense for them is not a violation of fluff.
Honestly, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to prove here. All of those races have stat boosts that make perfect sense fluff wise. So do the Muls. You may not like it. But no matter how much you try to argue otherwise, you're wrong. The 2e Mul fluff does for a fact support both Str and Wis alongside Con.
As for Shardminds, I'm no geologist, but I thought crystals were more brittle/easier to break than stone? Exceptions on each side of course - shale, diamond, etc.
Of course, you're also ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no fluff reason to give a Kalashtar an Int bonus, no fluff reason to give the Deva a Cha bonus (Deva have actually been refluffed, Muls have not), and the fluff fully and completely supports the Half-Orc Dex bonus, and not a Con bonus.
Drow having a Cha bonus instead of Wis makes perect sense. Gnomes having Cha/Int makes perfect sense. Tieflings being Cha/Con would have been better, but Cha/Int still makes perfect sense. Leaving out one bonus when 3 make sense for them is not a violation of fluff.
Honestly, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to prove here. All of those races have stat boosts that make perfect sense fluff wise.
That's exactly what I'm saying. These races have the ability score boosts that fit best with their racial fluff despite the fact that the fluff also includes them being members of classes for which their most logical ability score bonuses would not be optimal.
So do the Muls.
But your whole logic for them getting a WIS bonus is tied to "they're supposed to be good as X classes" when, as shown above and as you have just agreed with, that doesn't matter if there's no fluff reason to give them the bonus to begin with.
Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha
Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.
Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Okay, we understand your opinion on the matter, CelticMutt. However, this is not the place for this argument, and it's getting a bit heated. It would be better to lay it to rest, or move to the actual topic on Dark Sun spoilers.
I applaud your valiant efforts, Marandahir, but it appears that this thread is officially
Shardmind: I'm somewhat disappointed that it is a "crystaline" race without a +Con (we think?). Just a personal thing, but given that all of the races associated with mountains or stone or rock (dwarves, goliaths, warforged - though the last only because they're made out of it ) get a Con boost, it feels strange that the race made out of a rock doesn't get that boost. Not a deal-breaker, by any means - just... strange to me.
Maybe they're made of Talc? ^_^
Wow. Another reason for my setting's name for them – Talchion. Because Talch means fragment in Welsh, and that's the closest thing to Shard I could find.
A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe
That's exactly what I'm saying. These races have the ability score boosts that fit best with their racial fluff despite the fact that the fluff also includes them being members of classes for which their most logical ability score bonuses would not necessarily be optimal.
But your whole logic for them getting a WIS bonus is tied to "they're supposed to be good as X classes" when, as shown above and as you have just agreed with, that doesn't matter.
Err ... no. Just ... no. I did not say, and I am still not saying that being good at particular classes should not be a consideration in their stats. I disagree with that notion completely. In fact, the only races on that list that does not actually have stats fitting their fluff favored classes are the Tiefling, and WotC has acknowledged that that is a problem they want to fix, and the Drow with Clerics. And since the fluff favored Drow cleric follows Lolth, a god players are discouraged from following, it's not an issue.
I fully support the idea that if your fluff says you favor a class, you should have the stat boosts for it. And the majority of PC races follow that pattern. So yes, everything I have said is in fact in support of Mul's getting bonuses for classse they're fluffed to favor. And if you want another reason, here:
Con: Muls are born to physical hardship, and have a racial endurance that exceeds nearly every other race in existence, bred to be tireless slaves that can go for days without rest, and can go longer than any other race besides a Thri-kreen without food or water
Str: Muls are bred to be one of the physically strongest races in existence, to be gladiators and (no class here ma!) slave labor
Wis: Mul have an inborn straight from 2e fluff stubborness and dogged determination that makes dwarves weep in envy
Yeah, I should have said that last one earlier. I forgot. So sue me. Point being, 2e fluff, which 4e fluff is going to follow, fully and completely supports all three stats, both alongside and independent of class favoritism.
Wisdom has nothing to do with stubbornness. In fact, most of the time wisdom is the exact opposite of stubbornness. The dorfish "I'm gonna do what I want and to hell with what everyone else thinks" would be more tied to force of personality, read Charisma.
) get a Con boost, it feels strange that the race made out of a rock doesn't get that boost. Not a deal-breaker, by any means - just... strange to me.
