Yes I can. It's the rules. RAW allows me to pick unaligned on the basis of "I don't want an alignment for my character." That's it. There is no requirement for me to pick good if all my heart, allegiance and devotion is to "good" If you want to houserule it differently for your game, go for it. Just don't expect anyone here to go by your house rules.
you are right, there is nothing forcing you to have an alignment or from choosing unaligned and playing the game how you see fit. That is one of the great things about it, you dont need to use it if you dont want to.
I'm not even discussing whether or not I want it in the game. Let's assume that alignment is in my game for the following statement.
I'm pointing out the sheer stupidity of alignment. I can have two absolutely identical characters in my game, both absolutely devoted to all that is LG, but only the one who writes down two letters on his sheet is restricted in his divine choices. The one who chooses not to have an alignment(which you can do as a player, even if alignment is in the game) can be a cleric of any God he wishes.
That is funny because in my current game the party saved the one of the character's(the Dwarven Invoker) uncles from the clutches of a Black Dragon. The dragon had captured the dwarven brew master (who happened to also be a Cleric of Cyric) and enslaved him to brew a fungal ale. He gave the PCs several vials of his brew, from the bottom of the barrel, they have yet to drink them.
Find a way to trap them in prison/ruins/debris, and see if they'll use the brew to eat through the bars. Grog is powerful stuff.
You can't be devoted to being something you are not, maybe in your head but that is as far as it goes.
Yes you can. Belief is all that matters. Reality does not. If it did, then no character could choose an alignment side until that side interviewed them and allowed them in.
they were acting in accordance with TSA tenets at the point in time, but in no way were they devoted to being TSA agents because they were not TSA agents, merely momentarily aligned with them, but other wise unaligned.
Nope. They fully devoted themselves to being TSA. The reality of the situation does not reduce that devotion in any way.
Yes I can. It's the rules. RAW allows me to pick unaligned on the basis of "I don't want an alignment for my character." That's it. There is no requirement for me to pick good if all my heart, allegiance and devotion is to "good" If you want to houserule it differently for your game, go for it. Just don't expect anyone here to go by your house rules.
you are right, there is nothing forcing you to have an alignment or from choosing unaligned and playing the game how you see fit. That is one of the great things about it, you dont need to use it if you dont want to.
I'm not even discussing whether or not I want it in the game. Let's assume that alignment is in my game for the following statement.
I'm pointing out the sheer stupidity of alignment. I can have two absolutely identical characters in my game, both absolutely devoted to all that is LG, but only the one who writes down two letters on his sheet is restricted in his divine choices. The one who chooses not to have an alignment(which you can do as a player, even if alignment is in the game) can be a cleric of any God he wishes.
you may want to make things standard across the board. The group either plays with alignemnt or doesn't, mixing it up may not make that much sense and most people shouldn't have a problem with either way the DM chooses. And before you say it is not the DM's choice, it very well can be, he is not obligated to let you play, unless it is at your house I guess (not that it is a very good option unless the player is disruptive about his protest for his right to not have an alignment, but most mature groups could come to a consensus one way or the other).
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
you may want to make things standard across the board. The group either plays with alignemnt or doesn't, mixing it up may not make that much sense and most people shouldn't have a problem with either way the DM chooses.
You might want to do that, yes. However, we are not discussing house rules. We're discussing RAW and RAW allows what I just pointed out.
And before you say it is not the DM's choice, it very well can be, he is not obligated to let you play, unless it is at your house I guess (not that it is a very good option unless the player is disruptive about his protest for his right to not have an alignment, but most mature groups could come to a consensus one way or the other).
I undestand this, but we're not discussing house rules. We're discussing RAW.
Actually, Max - it doesn't require house-rules to avoid using alignment. The player chooses an alignment as (s)he sees fit (appropriate to any prereqs) and you're done. That's the same way it would play out if the group did use alignment, by the way. Further, how the story plays out given any perceived "discrepancy" in alignment would be just that: how the story plays out. No houserules REQUIRED, either way.
Through the ages, many would wonder "Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?" I wonder "Does the art of discourse on the internet imitate the art of discourse in life or does the art of discourse in life imitate the art of discourse on the internet?"
If alignment is valuable because it is a property that can be used, I place it on par with Beard. I therefore call for equal time, page space, and consideration given to the subject of Beard.
There are five categories.
Awesome Beard: You have a Beard, and it is awesome. Awesome beards are large, wide, bushy, and vibrant. Their grandeur inspires all those around you, their manly visage grants you noble status and powerful stature, and their sheen indicates wisdom. Awesome beards tend to be wild, untamed, and unchecked, prefering the natural appearance's elegant virtue. All who behold your adornded jawline exclaim "That is an awesome beard!"
Epic Beard: You have a Beard, and it is epic. Epic beards are similar to awesome beards in that they are large, bushy, and inspirational. Epic beards, however, tend to prefer refinement and intricacy, trimmed, shaped, and sculpted into a form worthy of ballad and song. Such beards require great dedication, and often have specific forms or styles passed down in codes of beard. Both varieties of beard, however, imply a commitment to a cause higher than any other form or function upon this earth, the cosmic significance of the Beard.
Unbearded: Some are simply not cut out for Beards. The unbearded do not care enough to make sufficient effort, and can be recognized by stubble or unkempt whiskers.
Lack of Beard: Sadly, some individuals Lack Beards. They deliberately mutilate themselves with profane tools of vile design that slash at the holy facial hair and hack through sacred strands. The smooth chins of these infidels is an abomination unto the world and a blight upon all people. Beard and Lack of Beard cannot coexist in peace, and are bitter enemies to the end.
Anti-Beard: Said to be even worse than Lack of Beard, Anti-Beard is fully capable of growing glossy glory, but instead desecrates the chin in a profane manner while growing atrocitity upon the upper lip or sides. Marked by the sinister beardless moustache or heretical sideburns and a naked chin, these terrible beings are abhored by all decent Bearded folk, and even Lack of Bearded individuals tend to despise them.
Like alignment, it is an option which can be used by the group to describe their characters. Also, it can change in a similar manner, and while the exact lines of when an Unbeared individual grows an Awesome Beard are vague, they can easily be left up to the group to decide without incident. Similarly, the exact definitions of an Epic Beard are left undescribed, but this allows the DM to fill in the gaps. Meanwhile, we can feel free to roll out Beard-only feats, PPs, and epic destinies.
I demand an exact amount of page space devouted to Beard!
I fully support the idea of the Beard as a property.
That being said, my support is not going to be enough for there are many obstacles for the Beard to overcome before it can be a Property.
First there will be the nayseighers that will claim that the Beard does not add anything to the game. They will claim that just being a property is not a real advantage and demand that you must give them a real reason that they will choose to accept (or not)
Then there will be those who claim that Beards are just a straightjacket and that all Epic Bearded characters are exactly the same as every other Epic Bearded character. They will say that they are able to fully describe their characters beard and that having Beard categories just inhibit their choices because all restrictions to beards are bad and unjustified.
Then the realworld examples will start. There will be those who claim that Beards are bad because in such and such a place they all go Beardless and who are you to judge if having Beards are good or not. There will be the sexists who will claim that women are penalised by not being able to grow truely Epic Beards (even though mechanically they do not receive a penalty to their Beard). There will be examples of friends of friends who quit DnD because they got into an argument over what is an Epic Beard really when you get right down to it.
You will have players complaining about how their Dm attacked them with the Shave Monster (similar to the Rust Monster in that it dissolves hair) and their Epic Beard Paladin lost their powers. You will have Dms complaining about how their players are supposed to have an Epic Beard and yet never spend anytime grooming their Beard or even talking about their beard.
And then there will be those who claim that Beards are unbalanced. They will say that Dragonborn are under powered becuase (by RAW) they are only allowed whispy Beards while Dwarves are obviously over-powered by the many depictions of their full and epic Beards.
And finally after over 1400 posts there will be some joker who wants to have a Tartan property. He lists several Tartan clans that can be added as a Property and waxes lyrical about the cosmic significance of Tartan and how the Tartan property surely deserves just as much space as the Beard Property and the cycle of life continues.
But at least we will still have the Beard.
"...as he hold aloft the walking stick, and utters the words... 'By the power of the Epic Beard... I HAVE THE POWER!!!'
And Thor stands here now, holding his mighty hammer, his beard flapping in the wind..."
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
So what advantages do we have we Alignment (for 4e) so far:
Property: Allows addition of items, damage, powers, paragon and epic paths, rituals, creatures (NPCs and Monsters).
DnD Ambiance/Fluff: A lot of the descriptions in DnD have an over-arching referance to the epic war between good and evil, law and chaos which, in my opinion, is a positive aspec to Alignment. Certainly the history of the planes and things like the Blood War were all formed and shaped by Alignment.
Moral Guide: Provides a loose set of guidelines for you to use for the 10% of your character that is not combat powers and items and is not covered by your other one word descriptions like Bold or Impetuous or Quiet.
Don't be a [Content removed by ORC] Rule: Allows the Dm to deal with disruptive players by trying to spell out the "play nice with others" rule you may or may not have been taught by your mother.
Optional: Yes, I consider this to be an advantage because it allows you to opt out if you want and for me to opt in if I want.
Hot Topic of Discussion: What other topic of discussion (other then the edition wars and the "small" trait) can spawn a 1400 page thread. Like it or hate it, you just can not ignore it.
Idea muse: It has been claimed that any restriction is an inhibitor of ideas, and yet I have seen so much effort going into the creation of characters and/or situations for the sole reason to prove or disprove the validity of Alignment that it proves conclusively that - Alignment stimulates creativity. Even the Beard Property can be directly linked back to Alignment. Now that is creativity!
I am sure that this is just the tip of the Alignment benefit iceberg - I am sure that you will have many more to add.
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Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012
DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour
"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
Property: Allows addition of items, damage, powers, paragon and epic paths, rituals, creatures (NPCs and Monsters).
Optional: Yes, I consider this to be an advantage because it allows you to opt out if you want and for me to opt in if I want.
You do realize these two things don't go along, right?
If alignment has mechanical implications, then it isn't optional, because you can't use mechanics without conforming to the alignment, at least by RAW.
But I like the fact that we can finally debate these points in a polite, calm manner while...
Wow. Alignment is a big hairy beast of discussion. I guess it's because it touches on the very real and persistant discussion of what is and isn't right.
So what advantages do we have we Alignment (for 4e) so far:
Property: Allows addition of items, damage, powers, paragon and epic paths, rituals, creatures (NPCs and Monsters).
Such things would not disappear if alignment disappeared. There are "alignment" keywords, like Evil, that are utilized for monsters and do not apply to PCs. Without a PC alignment system, items and creatures would continue to function. Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies that require a certain alignment would be affected minimally; they just wouldn't have that requirement.
I have no idea how powers and damage are affected by alignment.
DnD Ambiance/Fluff: A lot of the descriptions in DnD have an over-arching referance to the epic war between good and evil, law and chaos which, in my opinion, is a positive aspec to Alignment. Certainly the history of the planes and things like the Blood War were all formed and shaped by Alignment.
That can all still happen. There can be Forces of Good and Brotherhood of Evil going on in a game with no spelled-out alignment system. It would hardly affect the fluff at all to remove the alignment "mechanic."
Moral Guide: Provides a loose set of guidelines for you to use for the 10% of your character that is not combat powers and items and is not covered by your other one word descriptions like Bold or Impetuous or Quiet.
It's a training wheels system. If you need an alignment to keep yourself on-track with your character, that means you're using training wheels. That's cool, but it shouldn't be a core rule in the game when the majority will function just fine without it.
Don't be a [Content removed by ORC] Rule: Allows the Dm to deal with disruptive players by trying to spell out the "play nice with others" rule you may or may not have been taught by your mother.
"Play nice with others" is all that needs to be said. A DM who resorts to the rules to quell any inter-personal disputes is mistreating the situation, and Alignment is not helping them.
Optional: Yes, I consider this to be an advantage because it allows you to opt out if you want and for me to opt in if I want.
It being optional is not a benefit of its existance. It's a symptom of how little benefit it conveys compared to rules that aren't optional, like Race and Class.
Hot Topic of Discussion: What other topic of discussion (other then the edition wars and the "small" trait) can spawn a 1400 page thread. Like it or hate it, you just can not ignore it.
This is true. What in the name of all the mighty gods would we talk about, if not for alignment? Beards?
Idea muse: It has been claimed that any restriction is an inhibitor of ideas, and yet I have seen so much effort going into the creation of characters and/or situations for the sole reason to prove or disprove the validity of Alignment that it proves conclusively that - Alignment stimulates creativity. Even the Beard Property can be directly linked back to Alignment. Now that is creativity!
Give people some credit for their creativity -- it has more to do with the person than the constraints they are fighting. If they're not thinking up Beard analogies once Alignment's gone, they'll be moving on to something else just as creative. To say that this is a benefit is to fail to acknowledge that humans are inherently creative and that humans will express themselves in creative fashion no matter what. Alignment does not affect this fact, and this fact does not affect Alignment.
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
