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3 years ago ::
Jan 31, 2010 - 2:29PM
#191
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Date Joined:
Apr 24, 2002
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I suggest you look at the swordmage class traits again (and sorcerer).
Implement: Any light blade or heavy blade
Implement: Daggers, staffs
They are defined as a type of implement for the classes (ie classified as implements). They aren't weapons being used as implements. They are implements for those classes. Use doesn't define the classification, it derives from their classification as implements for these classes. Just as weapon use derives from the classification as one or two handed, not the other way around.
I beg to differ, the wording of the fact is clear as day. If a sorcerer buys a dagger, from the phb, is it listed as an implement or a weapon? Your logic can apply for a staff implement, but the specifics do not mention a dagger at all. And if they are really implements, why does it mention over and over again that they are used as one, rather than just being an implement like a tome,staff,orb or anything of the sort.
PHB 221 Arcane Implement: Wizards use orbs, staffs, or wands as focus items for their spells, while warlocks use rods or wands. Using a nonmagical implement confers no benefit. You can purchase a magic implement to gain an enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls with your arcane powers. A staff implement can also function as a quarterstaff.
Which means, you buy a Dagger or a heavy/light blade if you are a swordmage which is listed under the weapon table on page 218 of the phb. And you USE it as an implement. You have provided no evidence that the dagger is an implement. And as I said before, phb2 kills your argument Using a Weapon as an Implement: Some classes can use certain magic weapons as implements.
A sorcerer who finds a magic dagger +1 lying around can pick it up. It is a magical weapon, he can stab people with it and do 1d4+1+str mod damage with a basic attack. However, since his class allows him to use it as an implement (as I have clearly shown in a considerable amount of examples) he can use the dagger more than just a plain old weapon, whereas a fighter could not do such a thing
And you are misunderstanding "use it as an implement" in your quotes. When you choose the implement "dagger", of course you use it as an implement. Because that's the usage that derives from the classification. You can't use it as a weapon when you are using it as an implement, because the implement classification doesn't allow that.
No I'm not misunderstanding, you are. Just because you can use a dagger as an implement does not magically make it into one. It still is a weapon that is being used as an implement and its considered one when used in such manner. However, its still a flimsy dagger. Since you have provided no real substantial evidence contrary to my position, I'm going to have to disagree with you unless you can find more text to back up your claim. Also, If a dagger really is an implement as you say, we'd have an entire section dedicated to the "daggers" implement in the magic item sections of the AV, AV2 and PHB 1 & 2 just like staffs do. Hmm, I wonder why it isn't like that.. Because they are not an implement, rather being used as one.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 01, 2010 - 4:01AM
#192
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Swordmages Implements are Light Blade and Heavy Blades. They are not only used as, they are both. Those weapons when used as Implements stop using the Proficient bonus because you're not using it as a weapon anymore. That's the basic mechanic for all weapon / implements with which and kinda stick to with consistency. Hence why you need Focused Expertise to gain the attack bonus wether it is used as a weapon or an implement. Otherwise, you get Weapon or Implement Expertise which will only let the benefit apply when used as am implement or a weapon depending on the Feat you took.
Here they are, and the uses of them will determine how and what is treated like, when used as. An implement, or a weapon.
I am sure you can find one or two Magic Weapons that are said they can be used as X implements....instead of fully counting as one or founctioning as one. But generally they are consistent with this.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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3 years ago ::
Feb 01, 2010 - 8:52AM
#193
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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I beg to differ, the wording of the fact is clear as day. If a sorcerer buys a dagger, from the phb, is it listed as an implement or a weapon?
It doesn't matter what it is listed as, what matters is what the swordmage class categorizes it as (and Sorcerer). For those classes, they are categorized as an implement. They are used as an implement because they are an implement for those classes. Says so right in the class traits.
Just because you can use a dagger as an implement does not magically make it into one.
Correct. It's the fact that they class traits say it is an implement that makes it one.
Your example is bass ackward, just like it is for versatile weapons. The category is defined, then the usage derives from it. In both cases. I'm honestly a little bemused that you seem to think a fork used as a knife is actually a knife.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 01, 2010 - 1:50PM
#194
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Date Joined:
Apr 24, 2002
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I beg to differ, the wording of the fact is clear as day. If a sorcerer buys a dagger, from the phb, is it listed as an implement or a weapon?
It doesn't matter what it is listed as, what matters is what the swordmage class categorizes it as (and Sorcerer). For those classes, they are categorized as an implement. They are used as an implement because they are an implement for those classes. Says so right in the class traits.
Just because you can use a dagger as an implement does not magically make it into one.
Correct. It's the fact that they class traits say it is an implement that makes it one.
Your example is bass ackward, just like it is for versatile weapons. The category is defined, then the usage derives from it. In both cases. I'm honestly a little bemused that you seem to think a fork used as a knife is actually a knife.
I never said it was. if you use a spork, a machete or a fork as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered a knife.
And your stem belief is countered by a myriad of rules text that clearly disagree that a dagger = implement on its own, rather it being considered as one when used as one. I'm more amused that you believe that usage doesn't make an item be considered as something different like a farbond spellblade for example being used as a heavy thrown weapon.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 01, 2010 - 2:50PM
#195
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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if you use a spork, a machete or a fork as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered a knife.
I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree then. That's a mindset I won't ever understand.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 01, 2010 - 4:38PM
#196
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if you use a spork, a machete or a fork as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered a knife.
I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree then. That's a mindset I won't ever understand.
I agree THAT you disagree
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3 years ago ::
Feb 02, 2010 - 3:18AM
#197
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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if you use a spork, a machete or a fork as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered spork, a machete or a fork that you use as a knife.
if you treat a spork, a machete or a fork as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered a knife.
if a spork, a machete or a fork you use count as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered a knife.
Otherwise it's a spork, a machete or a fork.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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3 years ago ::
Feb 02, 2010 - 11:10AM
#198
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if you use a spork, a machete or a fork as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered spork, a machete or a fork that you use as a knife.
if you treat a spork, a machete or a fork as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered a knife.
if a spork, a machete or a fork you use count as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered a knife.
Otherwise it's a spork, a machete or a fork.
I have to try this at the store
*hands cashier a 1 dollar bill*
Sir its not enough
But I am using as a 20 dollar bill. I am treating as a 20 dollar bill
But sir it isn't a 20 dollar bill.
Yes But I am treating is as 20 dollar bill so it is one
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3 years ago ::
Feb 02, 2010 - 11:22AM
#199
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2003
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if you use a spork, a machete or a fork as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered spork, a machete or a fork that you use as a knife.
if you treat a spork, a machete or a fork as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered a knife.
if a spork, a machete or a fork you use count as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered a knife.
Otherwise it's a spork, a machete or a fork.
I have to try this at the store
*hands cashier a 1 dollar bill*
Sir its not enough
But I am using as a 20 dollar bill. I am treating as a 20 dollar bill
But sir it isn't a 20 dollar bill.
Yes But I am treating is as 20 dollar bill so it is one
But the rules don't allow it. That's the key difference.
Frankly, I do not see what all the argument is about anyway. For Versatile weapons, for example, all two-handed weapon feats, powers., etc. all work when using one with two hands, so who cares if it is actually a two-handed weapon when thus wielded or not? It's treated just as if it is one, and is not that, for all practical purposes,. the same thing?
Really, what practical difference does it make?
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3 years ago ::
Feb 02, 2010 - 12:38PM
#200
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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if you use a spork, a machete or a fork as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered spork, a machete or a fork that you use as a knife.
if you treat a spork, a machete or a fork as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered a knife.
if a spork, a machete or a fork you use count as a knife, for all intents and purposes it would be considered a knife.
Otherwise it's a spork, a machete or a fork.
I have to try this at the store
*hands cashier a 1 dollar bill*
Sir its not enough
But I am using as a 20 dollar bill. I am treating as a 20 dollar bill
But sir it isn't a 20 dollar bill.
Yes But I am treating is as 20 dollar bill so it is one
Haha, no in your exemple, you would use 100 pesos and treat it as 20 dollars for revelance. Did you read the dictionary references for counting and treating ?
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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