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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 7:42AM
#11
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2009
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Im quite a big invoker fan if you would like to farm out any of the power descriptions.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 8:50AM
#12
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Placeholder.
It's kind of funny that I'm writing this. Just the other day I was arguing that Invokers are the weakest of the controllers.
That's just silly; Psions and Seekers are the weakest controllers because each only has a half of a build released so far 
In all seriousness though, I've been thinking about playing around with Invokers a bit (I have almost no experience with them). I've always thought of them as the weakest controller class, though Druids are probably weaker controllers (but the Druid class is, overall, stronger because they strongly express a secondary role). But that assessment isn't based on any kind of in-depth analysis.
Still, I like the idea of Malediction Invokers (specifically, getting access to stronger effects but paying a price for it). As a ranged character, I don't imagine dazing yourself to stun everything around you would hamper you much, but then again it does make it impossible to both escape and attack if the enemy rushes you. I'd be interested in hearing about how effective these "so powerful that it hurts to use them" powers are in actual combat.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 9:11AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Nov 12, 2002
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Invokers get access to a daily area stun (save ends) at level 1. That gives them a pretty decent argument at not being the weakest controller, at least at heroic levels. This is the only stun (save ends) that can be used with a salve of power (AFAIK). With the right items, feats and paragon paths, this can be cooking along at a decent penalty to saves and 5 or 6 blast area by level 11.
However, I think the best thing about invokers is actually the RPG opportunities it affords. They are a blast to play...
D&D & Boardgames
If I have everything I need to run great games for many years without repeating stuff, why do I need to buy anything right now?
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 9:17AM
#14
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I've argued that they are, if not the strongest controllers, then at least the most consistently powerful controllers. They can't match a wizard who's throwing dailies about, but their at-will and encounter powers are certainly topnotch. They can also take a semi-leader role by granting bonuses in a big way(see for example rain of blood, penant of heaven's armies, etc).
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 9:18AM
#15
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2009
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I gotta disagree on the relative weakness, as invokers more than any other controller class have encounter powers that function as weak daily powers. A wrathful invoker running Rain of Blood, Deadly Doubt, Fiery Glance, and Thunder of Judgment is throwing around large bursts that only hit enemies and daze, add +5 to attack rolls, or both. Additionally, I disagree vis a vis secondary roles, as the preserver has the movement capabilities of a bard and the wrathful invoker can throw around hit bonuses like a tac lord.
What they do sort of lack is a tremendous number of optimization choices, especially prior to epic, since a lot of the feats stink and some of the divine item support is really weak.
As for the malediction powers, I played an invoker/devoted orator and loved the level 3 power words of ruin. With a large enough AOE, pushes, and positioning you could have them end the attack 7 squares away from you to totally obviate the penalty.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 9:30AM
#16
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Minor notes -
In the Half-Elf section, you mention cleric and avenger implement powers as being usable without multiclassing, but that druid and shaman powers are more usable with multiclassing, presumably because of implement issues, but avengers and clerics use holy symbols, while invokers use rods and staffs. Druid is currently the only wisdom-based class that shares an implement with the invoker; a half-elf with high int can grab a wizard or artificer power, and one with high con can get a con-based warlock power, if they only want to bother with one implement.
It's not totally in the realm of crazy for a Malediction invoker to be Wis/Dex, if you're going into a paragon path that doesn't use con or int for anything (Adroit Explorer, Keeper of the Nine, Divine Oracle) and are willing to trade (vs. being int-based) some ritual casting ability for some initiative. Similarly, Wrathful invokers can consider dex over int as a tertiary stat.
Elf, simply because it has a Wisdom boost, merits mention in the list of races. It's certainly much better than Eladrin, and the racial power is very good. Longtooth Shifters and Kalashtar are probably in the same boat, although they have less that's really unique to reccomend them over any other +wis race. (Particularly Longtooth Shifters).
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Regarding the hurt-yourself powers: They aren't categorically good or bad. Silent Malediction, the level 1 daily, is absurdly powerful. There are some others that, despite their drawbacks, aren't particularly powerful for their level at all.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer.
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
- Gary Gygax
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 9:57AM
#17
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If you want i may help you to sort out powers, i've played a wrathful invoker till 25th level.
Maybe i'll sort out 1st level powers using the standard LDB power rank if you want
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 10:44AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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Minor notes -
Druid is currently the only wisdom-based class that shares an implement with the invoker; a half-elf with high int can grab a wizard or artificer power, and one with high con can get a con-based warlock power, if they only want to bother with one implement.
The verdant staff works with shaman powers. Cleric, avenger, and paladin implement powers can be used with a Staff of Divinity or at higher levels Pelor's Scepter.
my handbooks & builds
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 10:51AM
#19
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2009
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What intrigues me about invokers and makes them the most likely of the controller classes I'd ever play is the unusually high level of synergy they have as a hybrid class with cleric. If you're willing to invest heavily in your defenses, a dwarven hybrid cleric/invoker can easily have defenses to rival the party defender. Plus what you give up is (relatively) minor; the AC choices between the two classes as identical, you still get the covenant, and you've got a 1/day minor heal to stash up your sleeve. At the cost of a feat you can get either Turn or Rebuke Undead back.
Once you look at powers, you can easily approach the level of healing and control of either individual class with the right power selection. Divine Power's Shield Cleric becomes your new best friend for inflicting status ailments. The only down side is your damage potential takes a nose dive, but that's why you keep strikers around, right?
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 11:27AM
#20
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This is my pick for powers, i miss domains so i may get wrong on at-wills
At wills
Avenging light (black): situational, but it's saved from a worse rank for the basic attack kicker. I think that sun strike is reasonably better though. It also targets fortitude
Divine bolts (black): again, it suffers from the direct competitor, hand of radiance which imho is strictly better.
Grasping shards (violet): attacks fortitude and deals low damage. Slow is a good condition in the heroic tier, but i prefer vanguard's lightning and i'll write about that below
Sun Strike (blue): better than avenging lights, quite controllerish and nice damage for a basic attack
Vanguard's lightning (black): strictly better than grasping shards it allows repositioning for your allies. Blue for Preserving invoker.
Hand of radiance (skyblue): i love this power, moon domain actually makes it a debuffing powerhouse
Mantle of the infidel (black): medium damage, leader-ish condition. I don't like this power but it could be useful in the hands of a preserving invoker.
Visions of blood (black): better than vanguard's lightning for wrathful and malediction invoker, who can sustain a little more beating. -1 to all defenses isn't pure gold but it's useful.
1st level encounter
Astral terror (black): friendly-aoe, helps repositioning, mediocre damage but it's not that bad
Blades of astral fire (black): again a friendly foe light damage prayer. Preservers make friends nearly unhittable for 1 round, the kicker makes this power blue for them.
Spear of inquisitor (violet): i love the immobilizing condition and the damage is good but the single target-thing doesn't attract me. Thunder of judgement is strictly better, even if you aren't a wrathful.
Thunder of judgement (blue): target fortitude but dazed is very harsh. Wrathful adds pushing to the damage feature, dazed+out of combat is really good. Skyblue for them
Forceful Denunciation (black): top damage for this level, friendly aoe... pity for the blasting range. Blue for the added forced movement for preserving invokers
Lightning Revelation (blue): basically it's visions of blood on steroids. Totally skyblue for wrathful invokers, -4,-5 to all defenses means autohit. Good damage to boot, but it also target allies so pay attention
Summons of justice (violet): the only thing that ruins this power is the close burst range. Bad design imho, i would love to pull controllers and skirmishers prone at my defender's feet.
Whispers of defeat (blue): this is controlling. Basically it's a disguised stun effect. Skyblue for malediction invokers.
1st level dailies
Angelic Echelon (violet): whispers of defeat is better and it's an encounter power
Binding Invocation of chains (black): dealing no damage is a huge setback for a daily but some likes the slowing and burst 10 is a very good range
Purging Flame (violet): only for striker-lite builds, i just don't like it
Summon Angel of Fire (blue): a good summon, it expands your options and deals heavy damage on oppurtunity attacks.
Crown of retaliation (violet): not enough damage to stop a solo, i think it's a soft option
Execration (black): your most damaging daily, and this is all: damage.
Invocation of ice and fire (blue): OK... Blast 5 is huge and cold+fire association usually means you get one vulnerability and one immunity. So it may be good. It would be skyblue but it's not a friendly aoe
Silent Malediction (skyblue): stunning (save end)? What? There's no way you can choose another power at this level, autopick.
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός
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