I'm very surprised you list Revenant as Red. They should be Black, if only for consistency in your Handbook (given you have Half-Elf as Black, and Revenant has all the options of Half-Elf, but with slightly better stat synergy with Dex over Chr).
Half-elves are already borderline. I'm not sure +1 init is worth it. I'll give it some thought; I may just bump half-elf down.
Curious why Spear of the Inquisitor and Crown of Retaliation are considered red. When you are using Sun Strike, then spend an action point to use Crown of Retaliation, you can then guarantee the big baddy will take at least 8 radiant damage whenever an ally within 5 takes damage. Now, when you get into Morninglord, and you're causing the Burning Radiance feature, that number becomes at least 18 radiant damage per turn. Pretty powerful combo, and I'm suprised that you haven't given it its due.
Curious why Spear of the Inquisitor and Crown of Retaliation are considered red. When you are using Sun Strike, then spend an action point to use Crown of Retaliation, you can then guarantee the big baddy will take at least 8 radiant damage whenever an ally within 5 takes damage. Now, when you get into Morninglord, and you're causing the Burning Radiance feature, that number becomes at least 18 radiant damage per turn. Pretty powerful combo, and I'm suprised that you haven't given it its due.
Let me know what you think.
Spear of the Inquisitor is red because it's one target and only marginally better than an at-will. What do you see in it that I don't?
I'll bump up Crown of Retaliation, since it multidips radiant vulnerability.
Spear of the Inquisitor is red because it's one target and only marginally better than an at-will. What do you see in it that I don't?
Spear of the Inquisitor is a pure controller power for fighting solos, elites, or any creature that will be face to face with your defender. The key to using it right is identifying the threat, and immobilizing it so your defender can close distance, or to stop it from escaping, so that your defender can catch it and keep fighting it, delivering marks. Meanwhile, if you spend your action point, you can use Sun Strike (and keep vulnerability active) to slide it into a strategically bad situation, guaranteeing combat advantage. Also, if you're dealing with a flyer who's suddenly immobilized, it will crash. I'm not sure if there's a ruling on this, but you coud also conceivably slide a creature straight up two squares, and force a fall, if the cielings are high enough.
It also targets Reflex, which is not what the Brute that will tie up the fighter will specialize in. The main detractor here is that most things you'll want to slow daown could have a decent shot at a good Ref score.
The damage from Spear of the Inqisitor is almost an afterthough, since it will be set up to take damage for other reasons from other sources. At level one, though, given Power of the Sun, it does D10+8 damage, as long as you're doing it no earlier than turn two, and you are assumed to have a WIS of 20. Not bad damage, but the immobilized effect is key.
It can be situational, but only insofar as you're looking for how to use it correctly in the given situation. I'd personally make it Purple or Black, only because it's effective in very specific builds, but in those builds, it's extremely effective.
More on Power of the Sun: The marks your defender (aces if it's a Paladin) lays on an enemy will force it to attack your defender, dealing damage to the one who can take it while also taking radiant damage from the Crown of Retaliation; or it just doesn't attack. Plus, if you're defender's a Paladin, chances are he'll be doing radiant damage up on the front line, so the extra 3 from vulnerability will be welcome. (and, of course, if your facing down undead, that number will shoot a lot higher.)
You definately cannot slide things straight up. You can teleport things into the air, but they get a save, and if they make the save, they go nowhere.
The guide has no Purple; if it did, Spear of the Inquisitor would probably be purple, since it's not useless or a trap, it's just not great. Immobilizing one target for one round is okay, but it doesn't measure up that well to some of the other options. It could probably be black - while it's a single-target debuff, immobilize is among the better things you can do as an encoutner power at level one - but it could also be red. The ability to ground a flier can be relevant at heroic (it's much more relevant if your DM bought the Draconomicon books, which contain most of the early heroic fliers in existance). All the same, I think you may be overestimating the potency of immobilizing for a single turn, as well as the best use of the power. (The best use of the power is normally not to keep something next to your defender so you defender can keep hitting it. Defenders do that fine on their own. The best use of the power is to pin a creature not effective at range away for a turn, effectively turning the immobilize into a stun.) Perhaps the most critical thing is that it's competing with a power that can daze up to three targets with free targeting; while daze is arguably less painful than Immobilize (it doesn't stop charging, but does force CA), hitting three targets with it is a lot better than hitting one.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer.
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'" - Gary Gygax
True, but it is one among three radiant-keyword encounter powers where the effects are actually useful. If you're using the Power of the Sun feat, chances are you're a Wrathvoker, and you don't have a high Int (Blades of Astral Fire is out), or as you're not really interested in bringing the enemy to you, (even though your secondary Con might be able to handle it) so no-go on Summons of Justice.So you're left immobilizing a single target in a way that lets other characters on the field manouver better. Immobilizing a flier is probably just something that will have appeal later on, when you find yourself looking for a weird trick to pull. A creature also ends a crash prone, so you can set up a Coup de Gras nicely.
I'm not saying it should be sky blue, but with proper consideration, I think it's one of the best encounter choices to synergize with the Sun domain at level 1. Also, I'm not crying foul because I disagree, I simply want to offer my insight, and see where everyone else is at with this line of thinking.
I didn't mean to give the impression that I don't think dialogue is valuable or anything.
I think you may be overestimating the value of the Power of the Sun synergy. It's three extra damage/encounter, if you use Spear of the Inquisitor on a target that you hit with Sun Strike the turn before. Even if Spear of the Inquisitor just did three extra damage all the time, regardless, that wouldn't have much of an effect on its valuation (in my opinion). Essentially, I'd argue that - especially if you're CoW - getting three extra damage on Spear of the Inquisitor still leaves it behind Lightning's Revelation (which does three more damage than SotI anyway, hits multiple targets, and has a fairly powerful rider) and Thunder of Judgement, which offers comparable control on more targets. (And more damage if there's only one thing worth hitting.) Sure, in a sense you're wasting your Power of the Sun by not using a radiant power, but even with PotS, the other options are still better. Essentially, the argument is that SotI + 3 damage still compares unfavorably to the other options. (And it's far from a guaranteed three damage; it will frequently be better tactically to use your encounter power on a target that isn't one that you happened to hit with Sun Strike last turn.)
This isn't really related to the power of SotI, but you can't coup de gras prone creatures (they have to be helpless, which is a very rare condition); if you could, Summons of Justice would be probably the best level 1 encounter power for a Malvoker. ---------------------------------- While I'm rereading over the level one encounters, I do feel that Thunder of Judgment is a reasonable option at level one for wrathvokers. Sure, the defense penalty is a bit smaller than LR, but there's also an action-denial componant and a hit-more-guys-more easily componant. As the character levels, the gap widens a bit (both because your Con mod goes up and because combat advantage becomes easier to get in other ways), but you can retrain if it bugs you. (I don't know if it's obvious, but I have a bit of a bias towards free-targeting multitarget powers.)
I was going to try to make an argument for Scourge of Heaven, but I can't.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer.
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'" - Gary Gygax
(I probably will put together a 1-30 build at some point, but I find this to be a more natural way of communication.)
Rather than post a complete build for a dedicated Devoted Orator, I decided to put together a miniature guide instead. I’m more comfortable writing this way, and it’s easier to make clear what’s expendable and what isn’t. It is a somewhat complex way to play an invoker, because it requires more careful maneuvering than invokers normally have to be responsible for, as well as placing yourself in harm’s way more than you might otherwise.
This guide will focus on a “normal” devoted orator, rather than one that does weird things with a Swordmage hybrid to use a polearm as an implement to do crazy things with weapon feats that do things when you push.
What is the Devoted Orator?
Devoted Orator is a paragon path introduced in Divine Power. From an optimization standpoint, the most interesting feature of the paragon path is the level 16 feature, which allows you to add the thunder keyword to any close attack you make - no DM mileage may vary here; it explicitly says that the keyword is added to the attack. The reason we care is that Thunder is an easy keyword to optimize around, but one that’s hard to get on attacks because of the lack of a general Thunder Weapon (there's a bow). The fact that one of the most relevant Thunder feats works well with close bursts and blasts is an extra bonus.
What this means is that a Devoted Orator has a strong incentive to focus on close attacks, most of which will be blasts. (There’s more of them.) This makes for an invoker that offers a lot of area attack effectiveness while still providing standard control effects and lots of battlefield management through slides and pushes.
In addition, the path gives you an int-based damage bonus and a push to your close powers (at level 16, with the same feature that lets you convert to thunder damage.) You also get a nice bonus to diplomacy (if you’re int-based) and some convenient ally-friendly close powers.
Because the path doesn’t really make any unusual demands on you or provide any character-defining benefits until level 16, we’ll mostly be focusing on that area. Prior to that, you can play however you like, and just retrain into the relevant things mid-paragon.
Who qualifies?
The Devoted Orator path only requires being an invoker, but has three significant bonuses for being int-secondary, and as an invoker paragon path it obviously requires a primary dedication to wisdom.
Your primary choices are: Preserving Invoker: This is an obvious choice, since you’ll be Wis/Int if you go this path. Most CoP riders are on powers you’re not likely to take, though, since they aren’t close. The Covenant Manifestation is extremely valuable for you, because it makes it much easier to target with your abilities if you can get an ally who is inconveniently standing where you’d like to blast out of the way.
Int-based Malediction Invoker: You already push with many of your attacks (with Mark of Storm and with your paragon path benefit). You can look at the additional push as a fun benefit or as somewhat redundant. Many Malvoker riders are on close powers that you want to take anyway.
Hybrid Invoker/Cleric: Technically Devoted Orator works with powers from any class, but Cleric is notable for having a large number of ally-friendly close powers, which are much easier to aim. (As well as generaly being synergistic with the Invoker.) Your primary sacrifice here is the ability to take relevant feats that improve your manifestation, since they all require having the actual covenant and not just its manifestation. Fiddly distinction, but it’s RAW. You’re also stuck without Hand of Radiance or Divine Bolts unless you’re a human, since you’re taking an invoker close at-will.
Wrathful Invoker: What? While this is probably a second-string choice, you still get the core benefit of the paragon path (Thunder keyword) even if you’re con-based. Since you’re putting yourself at risk with your close attacks, your extra survivability isn’t wasted. This is an unusual choice, but not without merits. Your covenant manifestation compensates for the lost damage from not being int-based, but you lack the utility of the other covenant manifestations. You're also at a slight AC disadvantage, but your giant pile of surges help compesate for that.
How do I build one of these?
A key thing about playing a dedicated Devoted Orator is that you don’t have any special incentive to take close powers or feats that boost thunder attacks until you’re level 16. That means until then, you can play as just a standard invoker. You’ll probably want to start getting feats and powers together to support yourself before then, though, since you can’t retrain everything at once at level 16.
Key Feats are:
Resounding Thunder - This is one of the primary reasons to bother at all; it makes your thunder bursts and blasts larger. Note that it’s optional; it should never make it harder for you to aim your stuff.
Mark of Storm - This is another primary reason to bother; this adds a slide to any thunder or lightning power you hit with. If you don’t have access to this feat (either because you’re LFR or because your game isn’t using Eberron feats) then the build still functions, you just lose some of your oomph.
Nice Feats are:
Standard Feats - Anything that’s awesome for other invokers is great for you. Things like Implement Expertise are still very high priority feats.
Invoker Defense - This is always a good feat, but you both need the protection and will tend to trigger it with your close attacks.
Solid Sound - Invoker Defense for your NADs. Requires 13 Con, which is no problem by Paragon. Note that this merely requires using, not hitting with, a thunder power. Remember to take the always-on Paragon Defenses first, though. (It’s smaller, but always on and doesn’t require accurate prediction of what defense an enemy will target. If you can predict that fairly well, this is competitive with and perhaps better than Paragon Defenses.)
Baleful Malediction - This is Invoker Defense and Solid Sound, but coming from the other direction by penalizing enemy attack rolls against you. It works on all attacks, but enemies you don’t hit are unaffected and this only works on encounter and daily powers. Plus you have to be Malediction.
Toughness and Durability (and similar racial feats) - You’re likely to get smacked around more than many invokers, making this pair a bit of a higher priority.
Echoes of Thunder - Bonus damage to most of your attacks. Make sure you take Weapon Focus first, though. They do stack.
Oncoming Storm - If you’re playing at a table where elemental weapons transfer keyword when used as an implement, a lightning staff basically gives you +1 to hit with this feat. Otherwise it's not worth the trouble, since the overlap between lightning powers and close powers isn't large.
Broadened Manifestation - This is good for you for similar reasons that sliding one ally out of your blasts is good for you.
Invoked Devastation - You took a paragon path and a feat largely for an effect like this. No reason not to double up at epic.
Power of Earth - While access to this depends on your deity, if you've gone with Visions of Blood (and you probably did), this is excellent because push+slow is a good way to protect yourself, plus it adds additional control to your primary at-will.
What powers should I take?
I’m not going to do an exhaustive list of powers. Our host A_Man_in_Black already did that; you take powers as normal, but heavily prioritize close ones (as you approach level 16; before that, it doesn’t matter. Your level one encounter power, for instance, will likely be trained out of by 16 anyway.) Note that you don’t necessarily want all close powers. At least one of your at-wills should be ranged or area, just because it’s not always possible to aim a close power without smacking your friends. Remember what the benefits of your close powers are - they push more, are larger, and do a little extra damage. If, even after you factor that in, another power still seems more appealing, go with the other power.
Well, what about at-wills, at least?
You’re taking one of Visions of Blood and Astral Wind. Astral Wind makes for an impressive amount of pushing between your various push-enhancers, but Visions of Blood is normally a little better overall, especially if you can fit in domain support for it. (Power of Earth is awesome, because push+slow is a good way to protect yourself, and you will push with this power at paragon.) Your other at-will should almost certainly not be one of those. Since you’re taking Mark of Storm anyway, Divine Bolts starts to pull even with Hand of Radiance, but HoR still makes a strong case for itself. If you’re half Cleric, you’re stuck taking one of their at-wills, which is a shame, because it means no DB/HoR if you’re non-human. You’ll probably want to go with HoR or DB and retrain to VoB mid-paragon if that’s the case.
What about equipment? Standard Invoker stuff works. You’ll probably want to attend to your defense more than normal.
Rushing Cleats - These are a nice way to increase your pushes and slides, which you have tons of. There’s some ambiguity about what exactly counts as “the power” causing the push/slide, and since yours are caused primarily by a feat, a paragon path feature and possibly a class feature triggering on a power, your mileage may vary by table.
Lesp you are so wrong about stuff? I probably am. I'd appreciate any feedback people have.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer.
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'" - Gary Gygax
The Dragonborn pamphlet (thingy) has a ppath with a Channel Divinity trigger add on. Throw in the one Invoker based feat that does a Channel Divinity trigger add on, and a possible late blooming build might work. Revered One ed lets more than 1 Channel Divinity each combat. All together it's a rather large pile of Channel Divinity encounter nova triplettes. Worth waiting til level 24 to do ? Only if the DM is really nasty at the high end, and the versatility is needed.
my kitty avatar's Royale Lineage ---> http://static.neatorama.com/images/2009-09/original-keyboard-cats.jpg
new helpful bg/mmx refugee locale ---> http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,632.0.html
I didn't mean to give the impression that I don't think dialogue is valuable or anything.
Oh, I know. I'm just saying it happens so infrequently that I didn't want to go down the road of: "Your opinion = stupid", "Your opinion = you", therefore "You = stupid".
I think you may be overestimating the value of the Power of the Sun synergy. It's three extra damage/encounter, if you use Spear of the Inquisitor on a target that you hit with Sun Strike the turn before. Even if Spear of the Inquisitor just did three extra damage all the time, regardless, that wouldn't have much of an effect on its valuation (in my opinion). Essentially, I'd argue that - especially if you're CoW - getting three extra damage on Spear of the Inquisitor still leaves it behind Lightning's Revelation (which does three more damage than SotI anyway, hits multiple targets, and has a fairly powerful rider) and Thunder of Judgement, which offers comparable control on more targets. (And more damage if there's only one thing worth hitting.) Sure, in a sense you're wasting your Power of the Sun by not using a radiant power, but even with PotS, the other options are still better. Essentially, the argument is that SotI + 3 damage still compares unfavorably to the other options. (And it's far from a guaranteed three damage; it will frequently be better tactically to use your encounter power on a target that isn't one that you happened to hit with Sun Strike last turn.)
You're missing something here. Power of the Sun is not +3 per encounter, it's vulnerable 3 radiant, which is +3 per hit, assuming you with with Sun Strike the turn previous. Also, if you're in a divine mob, everyone who has Power of the Sun will add 3 to every radiant hit that occurs after an ally hits with the associated at-will. I focused on the Radiant Powers, and found that Blades of Astral Fire is not terribly good for a Wrathvoker, since the AC bonus isn't too impressive for a power that does 1d6+WIS, and Summons of Justice is just about totally useless, even though you get 2D8+WIS. I'd prefer to let my striker and my defender get into position thanks to the fact that I stopped the creature from doing what it wanted to do (assuming a hit on turn 2). Again, I'm just out-and-out avoiding any power (especially an encounter) that doesn't do radiant damage, since that comes into play when Vulnerable 3 kicks in.
