Took your advice and rebuilt her as a Swarm Druid. Imagine the terrible power of her Savage Rend, which slides 3, knocks prone and slows. If she wants them to stay, they stay.


Explanation Show

And there she is.

Rain the Kitten Swarm Show

Druids specifically can't use shields in Wild Shape.

Quick Stow specifically overcomes that problem.

May 17, 2010 -- 10:35PM, Chaos_Redefined wrote:

Quick Stow specifically overcomes that problem.

No, it doesn't. He can stow it, sure, but he isn't using it. So Hindering Shield does not work with Savage Rend. Which was my point.

D'aaaaw... but it would have been so awesome...

May 18, 2010 -- 2:13AM, Lurain wrote:

D'aaaaw... but it would have been so awesome...

It would have been. I think that particular errata really hurt Druids as a class, the nerf to HAE was more then sufficienct to reduce their AC.

Yeah. The AC on that Druid is terrible. Giving it another look, I changed the race to Longtooth. After changing the stat array to 11-16-15-8-14-10 without racials mods, I managed to keep all the feats where they were. That results in damage reduction of 5 all the time and when I pop the racial, I gain resist 2 all and regen 4. Not bad, huh?

Still, I wonder what the odds are of an un-nerf. XP

May 18, 2010 -- 2:45AM, Lurain wrote:

Still, I wonder what the odds are of an un-nerf. XP

I'd say extremely unlikely.  However, I do expect that by Primal Power 2 (if not before that, in a Dragon article) Druids will get some kind of AC boost.  Having virtually no options for improving static AC if you want to rely on Wild Shape is a serious design flaw, IMO.  A fix should be an extremely high priority for WotC (certainly much higher than nerfing Pacifist Clerics and Daggermaster Sorcs...but I digress...).

Don't look for help on the Swarm Druid within the newest book released, the "Player's Strategy Guide".  Swarm Druids aren't listed as a build among all the other known builds in the game.

On page 20 of the "Player's Strategy Guide", they list all of the primary/secondary ability scores matchups for each race mapped to every build for every class, including the newest classes and builds such as Player's Handbook 3 and Martial Power 2. 

Yet, somehow, the Swarm Druid was not listed.   Oversight?

Probably intentional,  WotC has the habit of taking their mistakes and ignoring them letting them fall away into the past rather than creating a functional build.  This clearly demonstrates how much they screwed the druids in some effort to prevent the massive druid imbalances of the past.  Hopefully they will either make a viable con/wis beast form build for the druid or fix the glaring holes in their entire druid design that puts unfair limits on wild shape (oh duh you can't use a shield in wild shape, but sure you can hit people with weapons using your charming good looks and toughness).

Im sorry WotC but if you are going to be as unrealistic in all these areas, letting a druid use shields or giving them SOME option for AC would be nice.

 

I would like to know why Blightbeast is a sky blue paragon path. I asked on the controller forum if Blight Action takes effect before or after you make the attack with an action point. Someone responded saying that enemies have the choice to move when you use the action point and specify the action used, but before you actually make the attack. Nobody else has contradicted this yet. How is this feature any good when adjacent enemies will be given the choice to ignore close burst 1 attacks and melee attacks altogether, in addition to avoiding the ongoing necrotic damage, by just stepping out of the way? Even if you use a blast on that action point a couple of enemies could still theoretically get out of the area. You can't even use OAs on your own turn. The only extraordinary thing this path seems to offer, unless this is not how the feature works, is extra necrotic damage on beast form attacks. Even with that I wouldn't place this path above just blue. I would even go so far as to say it's a solid black.

It doesn't seem like anyone has sought to change the rating of Blightbeast yet, so I feel like there's something I don't get.

May 31, 2010 -- 10:18AM, earthboyjacobus wrote:

I would like to know why Blightbeast is a sky blue paragon path. I asked on the controller forum if Blight Action takes effect before or after you make the attack with an action point. Someone responded saying that enemies have the choice to move when you use the action point and specify the action used, but before you actually make the attack. Nobody else has contradicted this yet. How is this feature any good when adjacent enemies will be given the choice to ignore close burst 1 attacks and melee attacks altogether, in addition to avoiding the ongoing necrotic damage, by just stepping out of the way? Even if you use a blast on that action point a couple of enemies could still theoretically get out of the area. You can't even use OAs on your own turn. The only extraordinary thing this path seems to offer, unless this is not how the feature works, is extra necrotic damage on beast form attacks. Even with that I wouldn't place this path above just blue. I would even go so far as to say it's a solid black.

It doesn't seem like anyone has sought to change the rating of Blightbeast yet, so I feel like there's something I don't get.

Spending an AP is a free action. It's own action. You can spend an AP at the beginning of your turn, take your Move Minor Standard, then take your AP action. The trigger is "Spend an Action Point" so the enemies decide when you spend the Action Point. Having browsed both frequently, the sticky at the top of CharOp (Simple Question, Simple Answer thread) is both faster and more accurate for rules questions then the rules forum (weird I know). Also you're not taking into account the fact that you can't take OAs on your own turn... but your allies sure as hell can take OAs on your turn. That move is not a shift.

But basically I believe the reasoning is if you're a Guardian Druid, it is a good path because 1.) Necrotic is the most common damage type on enemies right after Fire and 2.) Vulnerable Necrotic when all your attacks deal Necrotic anyway is basically one-half of Permafrost.

Imagine this scenario. You use a close burst 1 Beast Form power while surrounded. Every enemy is vulnerable to Necrotic now. You AP. What do they do? Let us assume they all back up because taking your con mod+5 in ongoing damage is a lot (we're looking at a minimum of 10 ongoing for a Guardian). You hit them with a close blast beast form power (Roar of the Unbowed Beast in this case). Then you minor out to shift one, then you just walk away so you can charge next round. If you do the positioning properly, they'll be marked, having taken quite a bit of damage, with the options of attacking your party at a -2 or move+charging you, and being forced to take OAs (again) while doing it.

That scenario depends exclusively on the level 11 features. I haven't even touched the powers or level 16 feature. Not really convinced it is Sky Blue in general, but I can imagine it being quite good in the hands of the right player in the right party.

My problem was that my group's interpretation of action point rules is that you can only use an action point at what would be the end of your turn, after normal actions have been exhausted.  That would mean my druid is left with no positioning options once he  plans to use his action point to attack. I never looked at the actual rules before, and assumed you couldn't just use the action point to gain an action at any time during your turn.

I will have to bring this up with my DM.

How does this feat list look for a polearm druid starting at level 21?

Druid: Ritual Caster
1: Enraged Boar Form
2: Improved Aspect of Nature
4: Stampede
6: Predator's Burst
8: Battle Awareness
10: Polearm Momentum
11: Quick Wild Shape
12: Repel Charge
14: Pouncing Form
16: Skill Power(Die Hard)
18: Vital Form
20: Champion of Nature (after retrain)
21: Wild Surge
Bonus: Versatile Expertise 

May 31, 2010 -- 10:53AM, earthboyjacobus wrote:

My problem was that my group's interpretation of action point rules is that you can only use an action point at what would be the end of your turn, after normal actions have been exhausted.  That would mean my druid is left with no positioning options once he  plans to use his action point to attack. I never looked at the actual rules before, and assumed you couldn't just use the action point to gain an action at any time during your turn.

I will have to bring this up with my DM.

SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION

During your turn: You can  spend an action point only during your turn, but never during a surprise  round.

Gain an extra action: You gain an extra action this turn.  You decide if the action is a standard action, a move action, or a  minor action.

Once per encounter: After you spend an action  point, you must take a short rest before you can spend another. Some  monsters can spend more than 1 action point per encounter. Unlike PCs, a  monster can spend more than 1 action point in an encounter, but only 1  per round.

Tactically it is almost always superior in my experience to spend the AP early, so that is kind of a big deal that your group has that wrong, particularly as you hit Paragon and the level 11 features kick in.

Alien270, or any others who may be able to offer some advice, I could use your assistance here
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

with creating an Elf Predator Druid based on your build

Would this build be good for a level 2 elf predator druid?

Thaelis, level 2
Elf, Druid
Build: Predator Druid
Primal Aspect: Primal Predator
Background: Silent Hunter (Silent Hunter Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 12, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 15 Fort: 12 Reflex: 16 Will: 16
HP: 29 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +12, Athletics +7, Perception +13, Stealth +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +1, Bluff, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +2, Heal +5, History +1, Insight +5, Intimidate, Religion +1, Streetwise, Thievery +5

FEATS
Druid: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Enraged Boar Form
Level 2: Implement Expertise (Staff)

POWERS
Druid at-will 1: Fire Hawk
Druid at-will 1: Savage Rend
Druid at-will 1: Swarming Locusts
Druid encounter 1: Thorn Spray
Druid daily 1: Summon Giant Toad
Druid utility 2: Sudden Bite

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Hunting Beast Hide Armor +1, Staff of Ruin +1, Accurate staff, Headband of Perception (heroic tier), Amulet of Protection +1
RITUALS
Animal Messenger, Traveler's Camouflage
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Jun 2, 2010 -- 9:15AM, Tech-Priest wrote:

Would this build be good for a level 2 elf predator druid?
Spoiler: Show

Thaelis, level 2
Elf, Druid
Build: Predator Druid
Primal Aspect: Primal Predator
Background: Silent Hunter (Silent Hunter Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 12, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 15 Fort: 12 Reflex: 16 Will: 16
HP: 29 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +12, Athletics +7, Perception +13, Stealth +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +1, Bluff, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +2, Heal +5, History +1, Insight +5, Intimidate, Religion +1, Streetwise, Thievery +5

FEATS
Druid: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Enraged Boar Form
Level 2: Implement Expertise (Staff)

POWERS
Druid at-will 1: Fire Hawk
Druid at-will 1: Savage Rend
Druid at-will 1: Swarming Locusts
Druid encounter 1: Thorn Spray
Druid daily 1: Summon Giant Toad
Druid utility 2: Sudden Bite

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Hunting Beast Hide Armor +1, Staff of Ruin +1, Accurate staff, Headband of Perception (heroic tier), Amulet of Protection +1
RITUALS
Animal Messenger, Traveler's Camouflage
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

The build looks solid but there is just one character builder thing you should edit:

make your staff of ruin accurate instead of adding an accurate staff next to your staff of ruin, otherwise it kind of defies the purpose of an accurate implement.

The best way I've found to mimic the pre errata HAE effect for a swarm druid is to paragon hybrid with a warden and sac your warden powers.  Tbh, swarm druid pps kinda suck anyway, and wardens have some nifty utility powers/effects.  Sure, you have one at will, and an encounter and daily are useless, but having a high AC is worth it imo.  You also gain the earthstrength second wind effect, which is awesome with vital form (and the warden second wind feats too, specifically earthstrength defenses and resilience).

Something like:

Spoiler: Show

(Sorry was lazy and didn't flesh out the whole build but you get the gist.  Take all the normal stuff in the gaps like expertise, etc...)

Granted, this is a higher level build since you need to wait until L11 to get earthstrength, but imo it's worth waiting for since the AC you gain is better than anything you could get in a PP.  Until L11 you are a little less powerful than a swarm druid, but once you hit paragon, you are definitely better than a single classed one.

I hope you aren't wearing any armour yet in your build because at lvl 11 you can easily have 23 AC (10 + 5 from half lvl + 2 from HAE + 6 from armour) without comprimise (and your build has 24).

Right, it didn't combine it in the CB.

Everything else looks good though?

I'm not sure if his items' bonuses got added into his stats

Jun 2, 2010 -- 11:05AM, helphelpe wrote:

I hope you aren't wearing any armour yet in your build because at lvl 11 you can easily have 23 AC (10 + 5 from half lvl + 2 from HAE + 6 from armour) without comprimise (and your build has 24).

Yes, I'm wearing Hunting Beast Hide Armor +1

I "funny" little synergy.

When you drop below 0 hp with "Horn Tusk Armour" you are allowed to make a melee basic attack. Now say you are in humanoid form, and have "Quick Wild Shape" and "Pouncing Form" you could shift to say a minion and kill at, and then "Blood Moon Hunger" (Blood Moon Stalker, PP) will trigger.

It works yes? Very situational, but it could be a really good life saver. 

You can just slide the mob that "killed" you 1 square, interupting the attack (assuming it doesnt have reach).

Much less situational, and it still keeps you alive.

Jun 2, 2010 -- 11:05AM, helphelpe wrote:

I hope you aren't wearing any armour yet in your build because at lvl 11 you can easily have 23 AC (10 + 5 from half lvl + 2 from HAE + 6 from armour) without comprimise (and your build has 24).

Didn't put armor in yet, that was just a rough guideline.  Add in the +3 hide armor, staff fighting, and hafted defense, and you easily get a 32 AC.

Jun 2, 2010 -- 1:06PM, Tech-Priest wrote:

Right, it didn't combine it in the CB.

Everything else looks good though?

I'm not sure if his items' bonuses got added into his stats

I think helphelpe was talking to me, since my build had the 24 AC with no items.

Jun 2, 2010 -- 1:46PM, concretebuddha wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 11:05AM, helphelpe wrote:

I hope you aren't wearing any armour yet in your build because at lvl 11 you can easily have 23 AC (10 + 5 from half lvl + 2 from HAE + 6 from armour) without comprimise (and your build has 24).

Didn't put armor in yet, that was just a rough guideline.  Add in the +3 hide armor, staff fighting, and hafted defense, and you easily get a 32 AC.

Staff Fighting and Hafted Defense don't work in form anymore, according to CS, as you are not wielding the staff in two hands when used as an implement.

Jun 2, 2010 -- 1:43PM, Rathyr wrote:

You can just slide the mob that "killed" you 1 square, interupting the attack (assuming it doesnt have reach).

Much less situational, and it still keeps you alive.

I know that to. But "Quick Wild Shape" will still allow you to get away from your attacker since it's a Free action. So attacking the minion would then would give you nice HP to in a sticky situation

But I wondered another thing. How to get CA? I know of flanking, knocked prone and so on. But say I knock a enemy prone in my round, in his round he would just stand up and no CA for me and I don't get to use "Claw Gloves". What's the best method of maintaining CA?

Edit: trying to make a paragon Dwarven Predator Druid, using Spears and Savage Rend and get some DPR while I'm on it :P

Edit 2: Is "Deadly Draw" (feat) a good way to maintain CA?

Edit 3: I want to "stalk" my prey and solo him out with Savage Rend. Slide him two squares and move after with Stampede. And if he tries to run away I get OA. So I wanted to use "Claw Gloves" for this to... If possible

Jun 2, 2010 -- 1:53PM, dxlr8r wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 1:43PM, Rathyr wrote:

You can just slide the mob that "killed" you 1 square, interupting the attack (assuming it doesnt have reach).

Much less situational, and it still keeps you alive.

I know that to. But "Quick Wild Shape" will still allow you to get away from your attacker since it's a Free action. So attacking the minion would then would give you nice HP to in a sticky situation

But I wondered another thing. How to get CA? I know of flanking, knocked prone and so on. But say I knock a enemy prone in my round, in his round he would just stand up and no CA for me and I don't get to use "Claw Gloves". What's the best method of maintaining CA?

Edit: trying to make a paragon Dwarven Predator Druid, using Spears and Savage Rend and get some DPR while I'm on it :P

Edit 2: Is "Deadly Draw" (feat) a good way to maintain CA? 

How are you even changing into beast form on the enemy's turn? I was assuming Ferocious Transformation, but that is a Immediate Reaction, thus the entire attack would be resolved (and you need the immediate to use Horn Tusk), so it definitely wouldn't work.
"Benefit: You can use your wild shape power as a free action  during your turn."

CA is pretty easy to maintain. Vicious Advantage (awesome with Ruthless Killer), Deadly Draw, Anticipate Maneuver (level 2 utility). Proning is nice and all, but it is pretty hard to benefit from a prone you inflicted.

Elves are the best Preds, but a Dwarf is pretty good, if you dont mind the lower Dex (more surges and easy second wind though).

Well, unless you are pushing him against a wall, he will be able to shift and charge away from you. If you are planning to sit on top of a mob (I do it all the time with artillery and controllers, or lurkers we can't pin down), but take Ruthless Killer. An at-will immobilize that you can use as a MBA is win. With Vicious Advantage, you get CA as well.

I have already used to feats for the spear sliding knock "Savage Rend" thing (Battle Awereness and Polearm Momentum)... Using two more feat for "Grasping Claws" to when I have used to for "Savage Rend" is heavy as a dwarf (no extra feat)...

I know elves are probably better. But I like dwarves flavourwise Besides, having con 14 from lvl 1 has it's advantages

I liked the "Savage Rend" thing about the predator stalking thing of taking out the controllers, artillery, etc. from it's allies.  I know "Grasping Claws" is better DPR wise. But that would make me less mobile and take much more damage.

I guess "Deadly Draw" could do it. But does it work with Stampede? 

Deadly Draw will give you CA vs anyone you slide adjacent with Savage Rend until the end of your next turn. They don't have to stay there for you to keep CA. Assuming they can't teleport, if you proned them with polearm momentum shenagians, they can stand up and attack or stand up and run. If they run, you'll either get an OA to prone them again, or if not you can easily catch them as a druid and smack them again with CA next turn.

Forget it Wrong conclusion...

BTW: With the "Windrise Ports" background and MC Fighter and Warden it is possible with the Warden feat "Maneuvering Attack" which grants you CA to creatures you attack with a spear.

Does "Deadly Draw" and "Stampede" work together?

M=Monster
P=Player (Dwarven Druid)

xxx
xMx
xPx

Now say I attack Monster with "Savange Rend" hit him and slides him 2 squares forward.

xMx
xxx
xxx
xPx

Then I use a free action for Stampede.

xMx
xPx
xxx
xxx

Do I get CA from "Deadly Draw" now? Or do I have to slide the Monster 1 square forward and then backtrack 1 sq.?

Jun 2, 2010 -- 4:45PM, dxlr8r wrote:

Does "Deadly Draw" and "Stampede" work together?

M=Monster
P=Player (Dwarven Druid)

xxx
xMx
xPx

Now say I attack Monster with "Savange Rend" hit him and slides him 2 squares forward.

xMx
xxx
xxx
xPx

Then I use a free action for Stampede.

xMx
xPx
xxx
xxx

Do I get CA from "Deadly Draw" now? Or do I have to slide the Monster 1 square forward and then backtrack 1 sq.?

The slide needs to end adjacent to you before you use the stampede free movement, sorry.  You can certainly use them both though you might invoke an OA.

Jun 2, 2010 -- 1:53PM, Rathyr wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 1:46PM, concretebuddha wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 11:05AM, helphelpe wrote:

I hope you aren't wearing any armour yet in your build because at lvl 11 you can easily have 23 AC (10 + 5 from half lvl + 2 from HAE + 6 from armour) without comprimise (and your build has 24).

Didn't put armor in yet, that was just a rough guideline.  Add in the +3 hide armor, staff fighting, and hafted defense, and you easily get a 32 AC.

Staff Fighting and Hafted Defense don't work in form anymore, according to CS, as you are not wielding the staff in two hands when used as an implement.

Well that's a fun piece of information, that monks aren't using quarterstaffs in two hands either.  Or any two handed weapon.  They must have really strong arms.  I guess you can't use polearm momentum in form then either too, since you can't wield a polearm in two hands with implement attacks.  Do swordmages have to use a free action to switch their fullblade to one hand when they cast their implement spells? 

I didn't realize there was a rule that stated all implements had to be used one handed, but I'd be thrilled if someone could point out where in the rules it says that.  I mean, it was my impression that you could hold a quarterstaff, or any two handed weapon, in two hands, and use it as an implement (if you where proficient with that implement).

Personally I think CS is wrong here.

Jun 2, 2010 -- 5:05PM, concretebuddha wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 1:53PM, Rathyr wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 1:46PM, concretebuddha wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 11:05AM, helphelpe wrote:

I hope you aren't wearing any armour yet in your build because at lvl 11 you can easily have 23 AC (10 + 5 from half lvl + 2 from HAE + 6 from armour) without comprimise (and your build has 24).

Didn't put armor in yet, that was just a rough guideline.  Add in the +3 hide armor, staff fighting, and hafted defense, and you easily get a 32 AC.

Staff Fighting and Hafted Defense don't work in form anymore, according to CS, as you are not wielding the staff in two hands when used as an implement.

Well that's a fun piece of information, that monks aren't using quarterstaffs in two hands either.  Or any two handed weapon.  They must have really strong arms.  I guess you can't use polearm momentum in form then either too, since you can't wield a polearm in two hands with implement attacks.  Do swordmages have to use a free action to switch their fullblade to one hand when they cast their implement spells? 

I didn't realize there was a rule that stated all implements had to be used one handed, but I'd be thrilled if someone could point out where in the rules it says that.  I mean, it was my impression that you could hold a quarterstaff, or any two handed weapon, in two hands, and use it as an implement (if you where proficient with that implement).

Personally I think CS is wrong here.

It's really only a druid issue.  Polearm momentum works because you don't need to be wielding it two handed but when you wild shape the official line is that your implements are considered to be wielded, but not wielded in two hands.

Jun 2, 2010 -- 5:17PM, Seeker_of_Truth_02 wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 5:05PM, concretebuddha wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 1:53PM, Rathyr wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 1:46PM, concretebuddha wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 11:05AM, helphelpe wrote:

I hope you aren't wearing any armour yet in your build because at lvl 11 you can easily have 23 AC (10 + 5 from half lvl + 2 from HAE + 6 from armour) without comprimise (and your build has 24).

Didn't put armor in yet, that was just a rough guideline.  Add in the +3 hide armor, staff fighting, and hafted defense, and you easily get a 32 AC.

Staff Fighting and Hafted Defense don't work in form anymore, according to CS, as you are not wielding the staff in two hands when used as an implement.

Well that's a fun piece of information, that monks aren't using quarterstaffs in two hands either.  Or any two handed weapon.  They must have really strong arms.  I guess you can't use polearm momentum in form then either too, since you can't wield a polearm in two hands with implement attacks.  Do swordmages have to use a free action to switch their fullblade to one hand when they cast their implement spells? 

I didn't realize there was a rule that stated all implements had to be used one handed, but I'd be thrilled if someone could point out where in the rules it says that.  I mean, it was my impression that you could hold a quarterstaff, or any two handed weapon, in two hands, and use it as an implement (if you where proficient with that implement).

Personally I think CS is wrong here.

It's really only a druid issue.  Polearm momentum works because you don't need to be wielding it two handed but when you wild shape the official line is that your implements are considered to be wielded, but not wielded in two hands.

A monk wielding a greatspear is holding it one handed every time they use a power?  Doesn't that seem absurd to you?  Or a githzerai with a fullblade?  The ruling that every implement everywhere must be wielded in one hand for implement powers effects more than just druids.

Jun 2, 2010 -- 4:56PM, Seeker_of_Truth_02 wrote:

[The slide needs to end adjacent to you before you use the stampede free movement, sorry.  You can certainly use them both though you might invoke an OA.

Not meaning to question you. But Stampede is a free action. Doesn't that have anything to say?? One could argue that it happend at the same time as the shift?

Jun 2, 2010 -- 5:27PM, concretebuddha wrote:

A monk wielding a greatspear is holding it one handed every time they use a power?  Doesn't that seem absurd to you?  Or a githzerai with a fullblade?  The ruling that every implement everywhere must be wielded in one hand for implement powers effects more than just druids.

It is just the interaction. Staffs, as an implement, are wielded one-handed. A Druid shifting into beast form specifically can only wield implements as implements... which in this case means one-handed. I'd probably houserule it if a player wanted to play a Druid, but no one has ever wanted to. Invokers and Wizards are better controllers. Druids don't really have a niche.

Actually Druid/Monk hybrid wouldn't have an issue with a greatspear and Hafted Defense.

Jun 2, 2010 -- 5:28PM, dxlr8r wrote:

Not meaning to question you. But Stampede is a free action. Doesn't that have anything to say?? One could argue that it happend at the same time as the shift?

Things don't generally happen "at the same time" in a mechanical sense in 4e.  Stampede even uses the language "After making a charge attack ..." eliminating any question that this might be one of those free actions that interrupts another action.  

That's the RAW answer you might be able to convince your DM to play it differently but if it were me I certainly wouldn't let you claim that you were adjacent for the end of the shift, but not for the start of your move.  i.e.  if you can get the CA you're going to invoke the OA

Jun 2, 2010 -- 7:56PM, Alcestis wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 5:27PM, concretebuddha wrote:

A monk wielding a greatspear is holding it one handed every time they use a power?  Doesn't that seem absurd to you?  Or a githzerai with a fullblade?  The ruling that every implement everywhere must be wielded in one hand for implement powers effects more than just druids.

It is just the interaction. Staffs, as an implement, are wielded one-handed. A Druid shifting into beast form specifically can only wield implements as implements... which in this case means one-handed. I'd probably houserule it if a player wanted to play a Druid, but no one has ever wanted to. Invokers and Wizards are better controllers. Druids don't really have a niche.

Actually Druid/Monk hybrid wouldn't have an issue with a greatspear and Hafted Defense.

I'd like to know where in the books that it explicitly says that staffs when used as an implement must be used one handed.  Because it says nothing about that here:

Spoiler: Show

Or here:

Spoiler: Show

Or here:

Spoiler: Show

So I'm confused as to where you are getting this information, besides the CS "clarification".

Jun 2, 2010 -- 10:17PM, concretebuddha wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 7:56PM, Alcestis wrote:

Jun 2, 2010 -- 5:27PM, concretebuddha wrote:

A monk wielding a greatspear is holding it one handed every time they use a power?  Doesn't that seem absurd to you?  Or a githzerai with a fullblade?  The ruling that every implement everywhere must be wielded in one hand for implement powers effects more than just druids.

It is just the interaction. Staffs, as an implement, are wielded one-handed. A Druid shifting into beast form specifically can only wield implements as implements... which in this case means one-handed. I'd probably houserule it if a player wanted to play a Druid, but no one has ever wanted to. Invokers and Wizards are better controllers. Druids don't really have a niche.

Actually Druid/Monk hybrid wouldn't have an issue with a greatspear and Hafted Defense.

I'd like to know where in the books that it explicitly says that staffs when used as an implement must be used one handed.  Because it says nothing about that here:

Spoiler: Show

Implement

Implements are items  wielded by certain characters to channel their powers. Your class  description or a feat tells you which implements you can wield, if any.  The implement keyword identifies a power that can be used through an  implement, and the implement must be a type wielded by the power’s class  or paragon path. For example, to use an implement with a wizard power,  the implement must be a type used by wizards, such as an orb or a wand,  and you must be able to wield it. If a power, like one from a racial  paragon path, has this keyword but isn’t associated with a class or a  class paragon path, you can use any implement with that power, as long  as you’re able to wield the implement.

Magic Implements: To use a  magic implement—including its properties and powers—you must be able to  wield that kind of implement. If you can wield a magic implement, you  can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls  of implement powers you use through it.

Using a Weapon as an  Implement: If you’re able to use a weapon as an implement, the weapon  works like a normal implement for you, but you use neither the weapon’s  proficiency bonus nor its nonmagical weapon properties with your  implement powers.
When you use a magic version of the weapon as an  implement, you can use the magic weapon’s enhancement bonus, critical  hit effects, properties, and powers. However, some magic weapons have  properties and powers that are worded in such a way that they work only  with weapon attacks. Also, a weapon’s range and damage die are usually  irrelevant to implement powers, since such powers have their own ranges  and damage expressions.

Published in Player's  Handbook 3.

Or here:

Spoiler: Show

Wild Shape

You assume  an aspect of the Primal Beast or return to your  humanoid form.

At-Will        Polymorph, Primal
Minor Action      Personal

Effect: You change from your humanoid form  to beast form or vice versa. When you change from beast form back to  your humanoid form, you can shift 1 square. While you are in beast form,  you can't use attack, utility, or feat powers that lack the beast form  keyword, although you can sustain such powers.
    You choose a  specific form whenever you use wild shape to change into beast form. The  beast form is your size, resembles a natural beast or a fey beast, and  normally doesn't change your game statistics. Your equipment becomes  part of your beast form, but you drop anything you are holding, except  implements you can use. You continue to gain the benefits of the  equipment you wear, except a shield.
    You can use the properties  and the powers of implements as well as magic items that you wear, but  not the properties or the powers of weapons or the powers of wondrous  items. While equipment is part of your beast form, it cannot be removed,  and anything in a container that is part of your beast form is  inaccessible.

Special: You can use this  power once per round.

Or here:

Spoiler: Show

Staff Implement

Category: Gear
Price:  5 gp
Weight: 4 lb
Description: Using a nonmagical  implement confers no benefit. You can purchase a magical implement to  gain an enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls with your  arcane powers. A staff implement can also function as a magic  quarterstaff.

So I'm confused as to where you are getting this information, besides the CS "clarification".

Hmmm, I just checked the FAQ and Errata, but couldn't seem to locate an official ruling on this.  I can't remember if there was one (that I just can't find at the moment), or if it was just assumed that the CS response indicated that an official ruling was forthcoming.

I'll try to look into this some more later.

I am looking to create a fire themed druid most likely Dwarf though human is possible. I can use Lightning and Thunder as well though the majority of my powers need to have the fire theme.

I have never played a controller and am a bit weak on the power set and was wondering if there was a good selection of fire based powers that wouldn't make the character drag on the party. I will probably not use beast form a lot as it misses the flavor if the character so am I completely gimping myself with these 2 restrictions.

Is there an implement I can use that converts powers to the fire keyword? 
This character is for the LFR campaign so I can't use dragonmarks either. 

Jun 8, 2010 -- 12:30AM, Veleria wrote:

I am looking to create a fire themed druid most likely Dwarf though human is possible. I can use Lightning and Thunder as well though the majority of my powers need to have the fire theme.

I have never played a controller and am a bit weak on the power set and was wondering if there was a good selection of fire based powers that wouldn't make the character drag on the party. I will probably not use beast form a lot as it misses the flavor if the character so am I completely gimping myself with these 2 restrictions.

Is there an implement I can use that converts powers to the fire keyword? 
This character is for the LFR campaign so I can't use dragonmarks either. 

A quarterstaff  is a weapon, thus qualfies for Flaming Weapon. You would lose any other damage keywords though. I dont really see the point in playing a druid and not using beastform. Wizards, Psions, seekers and invokers would all be better choices.

Jun 8, 2010 -- 1:09AM, Rathyr wrote:

A quarterstaff  is a weapon, thus qualfies for Flaming Weapon. You would lose any other damage keywords though. I dont really see the point in playing a druid and not using beastform. Wizards, Psions, seekers and invokers would all be better choices.

I wouldn't necessarily discourage making the character, but this does make sense. Wizards do fire magic much better than druids. If you don't intend to wild shape much and want to use fire magic, consider making a Wizard rather than a druid. You can always retheme the character...maybe even use an Int/Wis orb build to get the stats in line.

Thing 1: It's true, if you aren't intending ot use beastform *ever*, much of the druid niftiness is lost.
Thing 2: This does not mean that a *primarily* caster-form druid is a bad idea.

Sounds like you want a guardian druid, which is fine.  Decide whether or not you want to go heavy summoner - druid summons can be really quite strong, but largely lack the fire theme (and the summon that I know of that has the fire theme is a bit unruly).  Flaming weapon isn't worth it for you, it's a lvl+5 mod, and you won't actually get much in the way of serious benefits out of the fire type.  Good old staff of ruin is pretty much a staple of the build for a reason, possibly with a fire dragonshard.

You should have a plan for your beastform.  Figure out a way to make beastform in-theme (even if you won't use it much) and use it as a holdout weapon if nothing else.


Beyond that...
- Why are you gimping yourself on your first foray into a new role?  I can see tossing interesting restrictions on yourself in order to make things more interesting, but if you're still unsure of yourself, "let's make things more difficult" shouldn't be a major part of the plan.  My suggestion would be to start out with a standard unrestricted guardian druid, plan to spend most of your time in caster form and select powers and gear appropriately, and then possibly retrain the character into more and more of a fire theme as you get confortable with it.  The "retrain everything when you level" schtick is your friend here.

The self gimping is mainly because I can't think of a theme I like for any of the controller classes but I would like to play one to get an idea of controller play. I have been looking at other controllers as well and wanted to get an idea if this was a viable option. I have played Wizards in previous editions and I don't really like the feel of them in this edition so I am looking for something new. Psion's flavor is also a bit lacking so I am looking to the druid for possibilities.

Beastform druid play is interesting, but it won't tell you about normal controller play.

Instinctual Summoning druid play (where you just take every daily you have as a summon power and stay mostly in caster form, picking strong casterform abilities for your encounter powers and particularly looking for ones that synergize well with having spirits around that you want to use the instinctual actions of) can be interesting and is well-supported.  Again, I might suggest that you start light on the theme, and then pick one up as you go.  Perhaps pick up a fluff theme, rather than a crunch theme (at least initially).  I've recently quit playing a dwarven druid who got all of his powers through freakish symbiosis with a friendly tentacled abomination (she really was quite friendly - and absolutely delighted to have a nice, cozy dwarf to hide in from all of the other far realm beasties that wanted to eat her).  It really didn't limit my power choices much at all, but the theme was definitely there.

For a polearm druid epic tier

Specific build here
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
 
What's a good item to hold in your off hand?

I've identified Architect's Staff +1 since don't need attack rolls for my walls
and Defensive Staff +1 since it seems like your NADs get a bonus even if you aren't casting spells through it.

I posted this here rather than in the thread for the druid both because that thread hasn't gotten any responses and because I off-hand utility would be a topic of general interest to druids. 

Is it possible to use "Spiked shield" in beastform? Or does that count as shield to? The reason I wonder is because I want to use "Hindering Shield" in beastform, and the extra defensive bonuses are good to

I don't think it will work since shields are not wielded while in beast form.

Jun 9, 2010 -- 6:42AM, dxlr8r wrote:

Is it possible to use "Spiked shield" in beastform? Or does that count as shield to? The reason I wonder is because I want to use "Hindering Shield" in beastform, and the extra defensive bonuses are good to

This definitely won't work unless you can use the spiked shield as an implement.  If you can I'm not so sure.

I don't know what sucks more about WotC's fear of the druid, the fact that they are inserting realism into aspects of one class while completely disregarding them for others or that the poor design of the druid as a shapechanger makes it so they won't ever make another one.  Warden is such a piss poor interpretation, great im a shapeshifter but i can only do my skin and head, thanks.  

Im a druid, I turn into a bear, but i can't do anythign a bear can do.   They could have done so many things to make it work without unbalancing the game.  Stuff like:

While in beast form use your Wis instead of Str for str checks and skill checks but not attacks (this makes it so your "strength" in beast form is equal to your wisdom, not a big deal but flavorful and makes it so you have beast forms that get a boost to swim/climb/jump for being in beast form but no more that a character has with the same score)

Your stats don't change in beast form, you are unable to use attack powers that lack the beastform keyword.  (Why no utilities??? Not only does this suck because many of them are obviously designed for beast form but can't be used and now you can't use a SINGLE skill power in beast form, what awesome awesome benefits do you gain for going beast? Nothing other than appearance.  Its like a toggle, but one that cause you to lose weapon benefits, shield benefits utility benefits for no real gain)

Less Control, more secondary roles (In this way they started fine and then lost it with bad errata and no imagination on feats.  You are looking at the only class that has almost no way of increasing static ac, no weapon ac buffs, no shields, no magic weapon/shield properties, even hafted defense may or may not work depending on which CS response you read)  If instead you emphasized the other roles with build abilities then you would have the flexibility but limited to different builds)

The worst part with the 4th Ed druid was the deliberate attempt to underpower it because of the past mistakes with druids in 3rd Ed.  Until they get over it they will continue to put unfair limitations on the druid and make it clear that if you want to play a shapeshifter you have to go predator and live without the same effects/options that ALL other classes get, cause you don't get skill powers, you don't get weapon effects or shields or anything all for the sake of realism, while the paladin over their swings and hits you hard with his sword not with str or dex but his winning smile. 

A couple of suggestions to add to the item section under implements:

Staff of Corrosion (AV) - I'm surprised this was left off the list since the Staff of the Serpent was listed as sky blue.  Corrosion does basically the same thing, except with acid damage instead of poison.  I believe acid is resisted less than poison (not sure though), which would make it better in that regard.  Those with the Coiled Serpent paragon path might actually prefer this staff, since it would make your melee attacks in beast form deal both poison and acid damage, making it much harder to resist.  This would save you from having to MC Assassin to get around poison resistance, in case you'd rather save your MC for another class.  The daily power is also nice - basically reroll any one attack.

Staff of the Traveler (PHB3) - This might be a nice off-hand implement for Predators.  The property on it says that whenever you shift, you can teleport that number of squares instead.  That can be quite a boost in mobility, especially for Paragon level Predators with Pouncing Form.

Vanguard Weapon (AV) - Perhaps a bit cheesey, but as an off-hand item it could be quite useful for increasing DPR for striker-focused druids.  It has the property of dealing +1d8 on a charge, and doesn't specify that you have to use this weapon as part of the attack.

Jun 12, 2010 -- 9:23AM, Squad wrote:

A couple of suggestions to add to the item section under implements:

Staff of Corrosion (AV) - I'm surprised this was left off the list since the Staff of the Serpent was listed as sky blue.  Corrosion does basically the same thing, except with acid damage instead of poison.  I believe acid is resisted less than poison (not sure though), which would make it better in that regard.  Those with the Coiled Serpent paragon path might actually prefer this staff, since it would make your melee attacks in beast form deal both poison and acid damage, making it much harder to resist.  This would save you from having to MC Assassin to get around poison resistance, in case you'd rather save your MC for another class.  The daily power is also nice - basically reroll any one attack.

Staff of the Traveler (PHB3) - This might be a nice off-hand implement for Predators.  The property on it says that whenever you shift, you can teleport that number of squares instead.  That can be quite a boost in mobility, especially for Paragon level Predators with Pouncing Form.

Vanguard Weapon (AV) - Perhaps a bit cheesey, but as an off-hand item it could be quite useful for increasing DPR for striker-focused druids.  It has the property of dealing +1d8 on a charge, and doesn't specify that you have to use this weapon as part of the attack.

I've added these to the items section, but I would like to point out that a Vanguard staff in the offhand doesn't work.  From AV pg 56: 

"Many weapons have properties that provide a constant benefit. To gain the benefit of a weapon’s property, you must be wielding the weapon. Unless specified otherwise, a property affects only the weapon to which it’s attached. For example, a +2 cunning dagger, which bestows a –2 penalty to an enemy’s saving throws against your weapon powers, affects only powers that are delivered using that weapon. You couldn’t hold the weapon in your off-hand and gain the benefit of the property on powers delivered using a main weapon."

The Staff of Corrosion got ranked only blue simply because it's more expensive than the Staff of the Serpent.  It's initial exlusion from the list was an oversight.  The Staff of the Traveller does indeed make a good off-hand implement, but it is very expensive (and arguably not as useful as the typical Staff of Defense). 

I've also updated the Implements section to reflect the March Errata that Weapon enchantments are useable for Implement users.  Thus, a Druid wielding a Frost Quarterstaff can take advantage of Frostcheese by RAW.  I'll also need to update the Storm Speaker PP (I don't have Primal Power with me at the moment), since a Lightning Quarterstaff would make it a much better option. 

Jun 12, 2010 -- 11:14AM, alien270 wrote:

I've added these to the items section, but I would like to point out that a Vanguard staff in the offhand doesn't work.  From AV pg 56: 

"Many weapons have properties that provide a constant benefit. To gain the benefit of a weapon’s property, you must be wielding the weapon. Unless specified otherwise, a property affects only the weapon to which it’s attached. For example, a +2 cunning dagger, which bestows a –2 penalty to an enemy’s saving throws against your weapon powers, affects only powers that are delivered using that weapon. You couldn’t hold the weapon in your off-hand and gain the benefit of the property on powers delivered using a main weapon."

The Staff of Corrosion got ranked only blue simply because it's more expensive than the Staff of the Serpent.  It's initial exlusion from the list was an oversight.  The Staff of the Traveller does indeed make a good off-hand implement, but it is very expensive (and arguably not as useful as the typical Staff of Defense). 

I've also updated the Implements section to reflect the March Errata that Weapon enchantments are useable for Implement users.  Thus, a Druid wielding a Frost Quarterstaff can take advantage of Frostcheese by RAW.  I'll also need to update the Storm Speaker PP (I don't have Primal Power with me at the moment), since a Lightning Quarterstaff would make it a much better option. 

Thanks for the correction on the Vanguard Weapon.  I thought I had seen that trick elsewhere.

As for the Staff of the Traveller, although on the whole it's very expensive, you don't need anything more than the +1 version to get the bonus in your off-hand. 

Jun 12, 2010 -- 11:29AM, Squad wrote:

As for the Staff of the Traveller, although on the whole it's very expensive, you don't need anything more than the +1 version to get the bonus in your off-hand. 

Lol, excellent point.  You can tell how much I try to poach properties by off-handing stuff :P

Also, I'd like to point out that I've further updated the Implements section with a review of Superior Implements.

Jun 12, 2010 -- 12:11PM, alien270 wrote:

Jun 12, 2010 -- 11:29AM, Squad wrote:

As for the Staff of the Traveller, although on the whole it's very expensive, you don't need anything more than the +1 version to get the bonus in your off-hand. 

Lol, excellent point.  You can tell how much I try to poach properties by off-handing stuff :P

Also, I'd like to point out that I've further updated the Implements section with a review of Superior Implements.

Heh, I wouldn't have to resort to poaching off-hand properties if they'd let me use a shield or halfted defense or any other perfectly reasonable way of boosting my defenses in beast form.

Question regarding Combat reflexes. Does it apply to Grasping Tide or Fire Hawk opportunity actions?

Alien, might want to keep an eye on the newly released WR Wilden. Only way for a Pred Druid to actually use Polearm Gamble, not to mention the massive crit range. As you will be using a weapon implement, the encounter and daily still are fine. Interesting contender for both control and damage builds (as long as you are using a weaplement).

I love it when they put in "Highest ability vs. random defence".

@alien -

Looking over your guide again, I think you really ought to redo the ratings on the Primal Aspects.  You rate Primal Predator as blue, and compare it to the feat Fleet Footed.  Primal Guardian is black, but it basically had the equivalent of Hide Armor Expertise before it got nerfed.  I think they actually have the strongest of the Primal Aspect features.  As a Predator, I'd much rather have my HP and Healing Surges tied to my Dex or Wis (as a Githzerai who MCs Monk can do) than +1 Speed.  So I think that line of reasoning suggests rating the Primal Guardian class feature higher.

Jun 14, 2010 -- 12:26AM, Squad wrote:

@alien -

Looking over your guide again, I think you really ought to redo the ratings on the Primal Aspects.  You rate Primal Predator as blue, and compare it to the feat Fleet Footed.  Primal Guardian is black, but it basically had the equivalent of Hide Armor Expertise before it got nerfed.  I think they actually have the strongest of the Primal Aspect features.  As a Predator, I'd much rather have my HP and Healing Surges tied to my Dex or Wis (as a Githzerai who MCs Monk can do) than +1 Speed.  So I think that line of reasoning suggests rating the Primal Guardian class feature higher.

While talking about Monks. Taking Druid | Monk you could carry a spiked shield as an implement while in beast form. And then use "Hindering Shield" And ofcourse boost AC/Reflex.

Edit: you could also use any kind of spear as implement as Druid | Monk.

Lately I've been reassessing my views on the Guardian build for Druids, as well as the use of Savage Rend over Grasping Claws.  I definitely like building a striker-focused Predator Druid that relies on Savage Rend, but I've been thinking a Guardain version can offer all that and with much greater durability.  Although I don't think Grasping Claws is better than Savage Rend (especially if used with Polearm Momentum), I do think using Grasping Claws for at-will immobilization fits the melee controller role nicely.  Obviously, it's a tactic best used on Artillery, Lurkers, Skirmishers, and some Controllers - though attacking Reflex will be nice against some of the front line as well, and this build can survive taking some big hits.

Guardian Striker:
Spoiler: Show

If I charge a target with Combat Advantage using Grasping Claws:
Attack +37 versus Reflex
Damage 2d8+1d10+4d6+41 (+5 if target doesn't have necrotic resistance) + Immobilization

Edit - Here's the DPR for the build at 30th when using Grasping Claws:
Target Reflex = 42 (Monster NAD: 12+level)
= (.20 * 0) + (.75 * 74.5) + (.05 * 123) = 62.025 + Immobilization

That meets the 60 DPR baseline for a striker, while also being a very durable build, and it allows for all your encounter, daily, and other at-will powers to be completely focused on control and AOEs.

Attack & Damage details:
Spoiler: Show

One trick is to use a Blood Fury Scythe at the start of each encounter to trigger Longtooth Shifting for the damage bonus and regeneration while bloodied.  I enable charging every round with Opportunistic Withdrawal/Long Step and Badge of the Berserker.  I use Grasping Claws + Vicious Advantage to set up combat advantage, as well as to get defensive bonuses via an off-hand aversion staff.  The Blightbeast PP really helps out offensively, with the static bonus to beast form attacks, ignoring necrotic resistance, and added vulnerability if the target lacks necrotic resistance.  The World Tree Guardian ED gives the build a lot of defensive strength via damage resistance and increased regeneration.

Some other defenses of the build:
Spoiler: Show

Overall I think it out-damages Predator builds while also being far more durable.  Comments?  Criticisms?  Improvements?

Would a Ring of Giants affect all targets of an Area or Close attack or just one?  Might be a black-level ring to add for Swarm Druids if it affects all targets.

Jun 23, 2010 -- 3:53PM, Squad wrote:

Lately I've been reassessing my views on the Guardian build for Druids, as well as the use of Savage Rend over Grasping Claws.  I definitely like building a striker-focused Predator Druid that relies on Savage Rend, but I've been thinking a Guardain version can offer all that and with much greater durability.  Although I don't think Grasping Claws is better than Savage Rend (especially if used with Polearm Momentum), I do think using Grasping Claws for at-will immobilization fits the melee controller role nicely.  Obviously, it's a tactic best used on Artillery, Lurkers, Skirmishers, and some Controllers - though attacking Reflex will be nice against some of the front line as well, and this build can survive taking some big hits.

Guardian Striker:
Spoiler: Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
LSD, level 30
Longtooth Shifter, Druid, Blightbeast, World Tree Guardian
Build: Guardian Druid
Primal Aspect: Primal Guardian
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Totem)
Background: Wild Hunter (+2 to Athletics)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 24, Dex 14, Int 12, Wis 26, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 45 Fort: 42 Reflex: 40 Will: 42
HP: 181 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +28, Perception +28, Insight +28, Endurance +29

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +16, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Dungeoneering +23, Heal +23, History +16, Intimidate +15, Religion +16, Stealth +17, Streetwise +15, Thievery +17, Athletics +22

FEATS
Druid: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Enraged Boar Form
Level 2: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 21)
Level 8: Vicious Advantage
Level 10: Ruthless Killer
Level 11: Opportunistic Withdrawal (retrained to Long Step at Level 22)
Level 12: Weapon Focus (Staff)
Level 14: Ferocious Tiger Form
Level 16: Gorebrute Charge
Level 18: Powerful Charge
Level 20: Agile Form
Level 21: Primal Resurgence
Level 22: Rapid Regeneration
Level 24: Robust Defenses
Level 26: Epic Reflexes
Level 28: Second Skin
Level 30: Quick Wild Shape

POWERS
Druid at-will 1: Grasping Claws
Druid at-will 1: Grasping Tide (Druid)
Druid at-will 1: Swarming Locusts
Druid encounter 1: Call Forth the Spirit Pack
Druid daily 1: Savage Frenzy
Druid utility 2: Grit and Spittle
Druid encounter 3: Roar of the Unbowed Beast
Druid daily 5: Clinging Drones
Druid utility 6: Camouflage Cloak
Druid encounter 7: Tundra Wind
Druid daily 9: Entangle
Druid utility 10: Feywild Sojourn
Druid encounter 13: Expose Weakness (replaces Call Forth the Spirit Pack)
Druid daily 15: Devouring Flies (replaces Savage Frenzy)
Druid utility 16: Insightful Riposte
Druid encounter 17: Cloud of Sparrows (replaces Tundra Wind)
Druid daily 19: Primal Lion (replaces Clinging Drones)
Druid utility 22: Sky Talon
Druid encounter 23: Primal Roar (replaces Roar of the Unbowed Beast)
Druid daily 25: Primal Storm (replaces Entangle)
Druid encounter 27: Thunder Claw (replaces Expose Weakness)
Druid daily 29: Earth Maw (replaces Devouring Flies)

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Claw Gloves (heroic tier), Ring of Many Forms (paragon tier), Diamond Cincture (paragon tier), Phantom Chaussures (paragon tier), Marauder's Elderhide Armor +6, Badge of the Berserker +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Ring of Protection (paragon tier), Horned Helm (epic tier), Blood Fury Scythe +1, Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Accurate staff of Corrosion +6, Aversion Accurate staff +1
RITUALS
Animal Messenger
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

If I charge a target with Combat Advantage using Grasping Claws:
Attack +37 versus Reflex
Damage 2d8+1d10+4d6+41 (+5 if target doesn't have necrotic resistance) + Immobilization

Edit - Here's the DPR for the build at 30th when using Grasping Claws:
Target Reflex = 42 (Monster NAD: 12+level)
= (.20 * 0) + (.75 * 74.5) + (.05 * 123) = 62.025 + Immobilization

That meets the 60 DPR baseline for a striker, while also being a very durable build, and it allows for all your encounter, daily, and other at-will powers to be completely focused on control and AOEs.

Attack & Damage details:
Spoiler: Show

+ 8 Wisdom, +15 Level, +6 Enhancement, +3 Versatile, +1 Accurate Staff, +1 Charge, +1 Enraged Boar Form, +2 Combat Advantage

2d8 Grasping Claws, +1d10 Claw Gloves, +3d6 Horned Helm, +1d6 Staff of Corrosion, +8 Wisdom, +6 Enhancement, +3 Weapon Focus, +6 Iron Armbands of Power, +2 Enraged Boar Form, +2 Powerful Charge, +3 Gorebrute Charge, +2 Longtooth Shifting, +2 Ferocious Tiger Form, +7 Blightbeast

One trick is to use a Blood Fury Scythe at the start of each encounter to trigger Longtooth Shifting for the damage bonus and regeneration while bloodied.  I enable charging every round with Opportunistic Withdrawal/Long Step and Badge of the Berserker.  I use Grasping Claws + Vicious Advantage to set up combat advantage, as well as to get defensive bonuses via an off-hand aversion staff.  The Blightbeast PP really helps out offensively, with the static bonus to beast form attacks, ignoring necrotic resistance, and added vulnerability if the target lacks necrotic resistance.  The World Tree Guardian ED gives the build a lot of defensive strength via damage resistance and increased regeneration.

Some other defenses of the build:
Spoiler: Show

+3 AC - Charge (Marauder's Armor)
+2 All Defenses - Versus enemies subject to my effects (Aversion Staff)
Concealment (Phantom Chaussures)
Gain Resist All 12 as an immediate reaction whenever hit by an enemy (World Tree Guardian)
Regeneration 13 while bloodied - At 30th regeneration all the time equal to # of healing surges +7 (World Tree Guardian)

Overall I think it out-damages Predator builds while also being far more durable.  Comments?  Criticisms?  Improvements?

I've updated this build a bit - mainly by adding MC Fighter to qualify for the Slashing Storm feat, which basically adds + Wisdom damage to my Grasping Claws target.  I also changed the ED to Reincarnate Champion for the boost to Wisdom, though with the increase to monster damage in MM3 it may still be best to go World Tree Guardian for that Resist 12 ability.

Now if I Charge a target with Combat Advantage using Grasping Claws:
Attack +38 versus Reflex
Damage 2d8+1d10+4d6+56 + Immobilization

Target Reflex = 42 (Monster NAD: 12+level)
= (.15 * 0) + (.80 * 84.5) + (.05 * 133) = 74.25 + Immobilization

Guardian Striker:
Spoiler: Show

Since I'm on a Guardian kick, here's a Guardian version of the Polearm build.  It also incorporates the basics of a Summoner build - Primal Summoner, all Summons for Dailies, SWS and PSE feats, and an off-hand Summoner's staff.

Polearm/Summoner Build:
Spoiler: Show

Jul 22, 2010 -- 11:44PM, Squad wrote:

Jun 23, 2010 -- 3:53PM, Squad wrote:

Lately I've been reassessing my views on the Guardian build for Druids, as well as the use of Savage Rend over Grasping Claws.  I definitely like building a striker-focused Predator Druid that relies on Savage Rend, but I've been thinking a Guardain version can offer all that and with much greater durability.  Although I don't think Grasping Claws is better than Savage Rend (especially if used with Polearm Momentum), I do think using Grasping Claws for at-will immobilization fits the melee controller role nicely.  Obviously, it's a tactic best used on Artillery, Lurkers, Skirmishers, and some Controllers - though attacking Reflex will be nice against some of the front line as well, and this build can survive taking some big hits.

Guardian Striker:
Spoiler: Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
LSD, level 30
Longtooth Shifter, Druid, Blightbeast, World Tree Guardian
Build: Guardian Druid
Primal Aspect: Primal Guardian
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Totem)
Background: Wild Hunter (+2 to Athletics)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 24, Dex 14, Int 12, Wis 26, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 45 Fort: 42 Reflex: 40 Will: 42
HP: 181 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +28, Perception +28, Insight +28, Endurance +29

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +16, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Dungeoneering +23, Heal +23, History +16, Intimidate +15, Religion +16, Stealth +17, Streetwise +15, Thievery +17, Athletics +22

FEATS
Druid: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Enraged Boar Form
Level 2: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 21)
Level 8: Vicious Advantage
Level 10: Ruthless Killer
Level 11: Opportunistic Withdrawal (retrained to Long Step at Level 22)
Level 12: Weapon Focus (Staff)
Level 14: Ferocious Tiger Form
Level 16: Gorebrute Charge
Level 18: Powerful Charge
Level 20: Agile Form
Level 21: Primal Resurgence
Level 22: Rapid Regeneration
Level 24: Robust Defenses
Level 26: Epic Reflexes
Level 28: Second Skin
Level 30: Quick Wild Shape

POWERS
Druid at-will 1: Grasping Claws
Druid at-will 1: Grasping Tide (Druid)
Druid at-will 1: Swarming Locusts
Druid encounter 1: Call Forth the Spirit Pack
Druid daily 1: Savage Frenzy
Druid utility 2: Grit and Spittle
Druid encounter 3: Roar of the Unbowed Beast
Druid daily 5: Clinging Drones
Druid utility 6: Camouflage Cloak
Druid encounter 7: Tundra Wind
Druid daily 9: Entangle
Druid utility 10: Feywild Sojourn
Druid encounter 13: Expose Weakness (replaces Call Forth the Spirit Pack)
Druid daily 15: Devouring Flies (replaces Savage Frenzy)
Druid utility 16: Insightful Riposte
Druid encounter 17: Cloud of Sparrows (replaces Tundra Wind)
Druid daily 19: Primal Lion (replaces Clinging Drones)
Druid utility 22: Sky Talon
Druid encounter 23: Primal Roar (replaces Roar of the Unbowed Beast)
Druid daily 25: Primal Storm (replaces Entangle)
Druid encounter 27: Thunder Claw (replaces Expose Weakness)
Druid daily 29: Earth Maw (replaces Devouring Flies)

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Claw Gloves (heroic tier), Ring of Many Forms (paragon tier), Diamond Cincture (paragon tier), Phantom Chaussures (paragon tier), Marauder's Elderhide Armor +6, Badge of the Berserker +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Ring of Protection (paragon tier), Horned Helm (epic tier), Blood Fury Scythe +1, Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Accurate staff of Corrosion +6, Aversion Accurate staff +1
RITUALS
Animal Messenger
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

If I charge a target with Combat Advantage using Grasping Claws:
Attack +37 versus Reflex
Damage 2d8+1d10+4d6+41 (+5 if target doesn't have necrotic resistance) + Immobilization

Edit - Here's the DPR for the build at 30th when using Grasping Claws:
Target Reflex = 42 (Monster NAD: 12+level)
= (.20 * 0) + (.75 * 74.5) + (.05 * 123) = 62.025 + Immobilization

That meets the 60 DPR baseline for a striker, while also being a very durable build, and it allows for all your encounter, daily, and other at-will powers to be completely focused on control and AOEs.

Attack & Damage details:
Spoiler: Show

+ 8 Wisdom, +15 Level, +6 Enhancement, +3 Versatile, +1 Accurate Staff, +1 Charge, +1 Enraged Boar Form, +2 Combat Advantage

2d8 Grasping Claws, +1d10 Claw Gloves, +3d6 Horned Helm, +1d6 Staff of Corrosion, +8 Wisdom, +6 Enhancement, +3 Weapon Focus, +6 Iron Armbands of Power, +2 Enraged Boar Form, +2 Powerful Charge, +3 Gorebrute Charge, +2 Longtooth Shifting, +2 Ferocious Tiger Form, +7 Blightbeast

One trick is to use a Blood Fury Scythe at the start of each encounter to trigger Longtooth Shifting for the damage bonus and regeneration while bloodied.  I enable charging every round with Opportunistic Withdrawal/Long Step and Badge of the Berserker.  I use Grasping Claws + Vicious Advantage to set up combat advantage, as well as to get defensive bonuses via an off-hand aversion staff.  The Blightbeast PP really helps out offensively, with the static bonus to beast form attacks, ignoring necrotic resistance, and added vulnerability if the target lacks necrotic resistance.  The World Tree Guardian ED gives the build a lot of defensive strength via damage resistance and increased regeneration.

Some other defenses of the build:
Spoiler: Show

+3 AC - Charge (Marauder's Armor)
+2 All Defenses - Versus enemies subject to my effects (Aversion Staff)
Concealment (Phantom Chaussures)
Gain Resist All 12 as an immediate reaction whenever hit by an enemy (World Tree Guardian)
Regeneration 13 while bloodied - At 30th regeneration all the time equal to # of healing surges +7 (World Tree Guardian)

Overall I think it out-damages Predator builds while also being far more durable.  Comments?  Criticisms?  Improvements?

I've updated this build a bit - mainly by adding MC Fighter to qualify for the Slashing Storm feat, which basically adds + Wisdom damage to my Grasping Claws target.  I also changed the ED to Reincarnate Champion for the boost to Wisdom, though with the increase to monster damage in MM3 it may still be best to go World Tree Guardian for that Resist 12 ability.

Now if I Charge a target with Combat Advantage using Grasping Claws:
Attack +38 versus Reflex
Damage 2d8+1d10+4d6+56 + Immobilization

Target Reflex = 42 (Monster NAD: 12+level)
= (.15 * 0) + (.80 * 84.5) + (.05 * 133) = 74.25 + Immobilization

Guardian Striker:
Spoiler: Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
LSDF, level 30
Longtooth Shifter, Druid, Blightbeast, Reincarnate Champion
Build: Guardian Druid
Primal Aspect: Primal Guardian
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Totem)
Epic Vitality: Epic Vitality Wisdom
Past Spirit: Past Spirit (Razorclaw Shifter)
Past Spirit: Past Spirit (Githzerai)
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Constitution
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Lightning
Firepulse: Firepulse Constitution
Earthshock: Earthshock Constitution
Darkfire: Darkfire Wisdom
Razor Storm Key Ability: Razor Storm Constitution
Background: Wild Hunter (+2 to Athletics)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 24, Dex 14, Int 12, Wis 28, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 45 Fort: 42 Reflex: 40 Will: 43
HP: 181 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +31, Perception +31, Insight +31, Endurance +29, Athletics +27

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +18, Bluff +17, Diplomacy +17, Dungeoneering +26, Heal +26, History +18, Intimidate +17, Religion +18, Stealth +17, Streetwise +17, Thievery +17

FEATS
Druid: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Enraged Boar Form
Level 2: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Vicious Advantage
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Staff)
Level 10: Ruthless Killer
Level 11: Opportunistic Withdrawal (retrained to Long Step at Level 21)
Level 12: Ferocious Tiger Form
Level 14: Gorebrute Charge
Level 16: Powerful Charge
Level 18: Quick Wild Shape
Level 20: Battle Awareness
Level 21: Slashing Storm
Level 22: Rapid Regeneration
Level 24: Robust Defenses
Level 26: Epic Reflexes
Level 28: Second Skin
Level 30: Primal Resurgence

POWERS
Druid at-will 1: Grasping Claws
Druid at-will 1: Grasping Tide (Druid)
Druid at-will 1: Swarming Locusts
Druid encounter 1: Call Forth the Spirit Pack
Druid daily 1: Lightning Arc
Druid utility 2: Grit and Spittle
Druid encounter 3: Roar of the Unbowed Beast
Druid daily 5: Clinging Drones
Druid utility 6: Swarm Dispersal
Druid encounter 7: Tundra Wind
Druid daily 9: Entangle
Druid utility 10: Feywild Sojourn
Druid encounter 13: Expose Weakness (replaces Call Forth the Spirit Pack)
Druid daily 15: Primal Boar (replaces Lightning Arc)
Druid utility 16: Insightful Riposte
Druid encounter 17: Cloud of Sparrows (replaces Tundra Wind)
Druid daily 19: Primal Lion (replaces Clinging Drones)
Druid utility 22: Darting Viper
Druid encounter 23: Primal Roar (replaces Roar of the Unbowed Beast)
Druid daily 25: Primal Storm (replaces Entangle)
Druid encounter 27: Thunder Claw (replaces Expose Weakness)
Druid daily 29: Earth Maw (replaces Primal Boar)

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Claw Gloves (heroic tier), Phantom Chaussures (paragon tier), Marauder's Elderhide Armor +6, Belt of Vim (paragon tier), Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Ring of Protection (paragon tier), Horned Helm (epic tier), Periapt of Cascading Health +6, Blood Fury Scythe +1, Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Accurate staff of Corrosion +6, Aversion Accurate staff +1, Ring of Action Reversal (paragon tier)
RITUALS
Animal Messenger
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Jul 23, 2010 -- 12:40AM, Squad wrote:

Since I'm on a Guardian kick,  here's a Guardian version of the Polearm build.  It also incorporates  the basics of a Summoner build - Primal Summoner, all Summons for  Dailies, SWS and PSE feats, and an off-hand Summoner's staff.

Polearm/Summoner Build:
Spoiler: Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
RSDF, level 30
Razorclaw Shifter, Druid, Primal Summoner, Reincarnate Champion
Build: Guardian Druid
Primal Aspect: Primal Guardian
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Spear)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Epic Vitality: Epic Vitality Wisdom
Past Spirit: Past Spirit (Longtooth Shifter)
Past Spirit: Past Spirit (Githzerai)
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Constitution
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Lightning
Firepulse: Firepulse Constitution
Earthshock: Earthshock Constitution
Darkfire: Darkfire Wisdom
Razor Storm Key Ability: Razor Storm Constitution
Background: Wild Hunter (+2 to Athletics)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 24, Dex 17, Int 12, Wis 28, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 45 Fort: 42 Reflex: 41 Will: 43
HP: 181 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +37, Insight +31, Perception +31, Endurance +27, Athletics +23

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics  +20, Arcana +18, Bluff +17, Diplomacy +17, Dungeoneering +26, Heal +26,  History +18, Intimidate +17, Religion +18, Stealth +20, Streetwise +17,  Thievery +18

FEATS
Druid: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Enraged Boar Form
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Wrathful Warrior (retrained to Battle Awareness at Level 21)
Level 6: Deadly Draw
Level 8: Polearm Momentum
Level 10: Strong-Willed Summoning
Level 11: Armor Specialization (Hide) (retrained to Second Skin at Level 22)
Level 12: Fierce Thrasher Form
Level 14: Opportunistic Withdrawal (retrained to Githzerai Mobility at Level 24)
Level 16: Repel Charge
Level 18: Weapon Focus (Spear)
Level 20: Quick Wild Shape
Level 21: Rapid Regeneration
Level 22: Robust Defenses
Level 24: Primal Summoning Expertise
Level 26: Epic Reflexes
Level 28: Defensive Advantage
Level 30: Primal Resurgence

POWERS
Druid at-will 1: Savage Rend
Druid at-will 1: Grasping Tide (Druid)
Druid at-will 1: Swarming Locusts
Druid encounter 1: Call Forth the Spirit Pack
Druid daily 1: Summon Giant Toad
Druid utility 2: Grit and Spittle
Druid encounter 3: Battering Claws
Druid daily 5: Summon Pack Wolf
Druid utility 6: Swarm Dispersal
Druid encounter 7: Roar of the Unbowed Beast
Druid daily 9: Summon Crocodile
Druid utility 10: Feywild Sojourn
Druid encounter 13: Tidal Surge (replaces Roar of the Unbowed Beast)
Druid daily 15: Summon Great Eagle (replaces Summon Giant Toad)
Druid utility 16: Insightful Riposte
Druid encounter 17: Torrential Storm (replaces Battering Claws)
Druid daily 19: Summon Guardian Briar (replaces Summon Pack Wolf)
Druid utility 22: Darting Viper
Druid encounter 23: Primal Roar (replaces Call Forth the Spirit Pack)
Druid daily 25: Writhing Henge (replaces Summon Crocodile)
Druid encounter 27: Thunder Claw (replaces Tidal Surge)
Druid daily 29: Summon Elder Pack Wolf (replaces Summon Great Eagle)

ITEMS
Ritual  Book, Claw Gloves (heroic tier), Phantom Chaussures (paragon tier),  Marauder's Elderhide Armor +6, Belt of Vim (paragon tier), Iron Armbands  of Power (epic tier), Ring of Protection (paragon tier), Horned Helm  (epic tier), Periapt of Cascading Health +6, Backlash Tattoo (heroic  tier), Blood Fury Scythe +1, Alfsair Spear Spear +6, Summoner's Staff  +2, Ring of Action Reversal (paragon tier)
RITUALS
Animal Messenger
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Thanks for posting these builds!  Mind if I use them in the sample builds section (I'll credit you, of course)? 

The Guardian Striker in particular offers potent role flexibility; it's a controller, so obviously that's covered, it definitely deals respectable damage that encroaches on striker territory, and with a combination of Clinging Drones, Grasping Claws, and the Guardian's innate durability it can even step up to the plate if the defender goes down.  I'd be tempted to take the framework of this build and try to inject more leader into it (Shaman M/C + Mending Spirit would be a great first start, and some leader utilities would round it out).  Wonder how that would work out in play, lol.

As a side note, I'll try to get the powers from the CA article into the guide within the next few days.

Jul 23, 2010 -- 8:15AM, alien270 wrote:

Thanks for posting these builds!  Mind if I use them in the sample builds section (I'll credit you, of course)? 

The Guardian Striker in particular offers potent role flexibility; it's a controller, so obviously that's covered, it definitely deals respectable damage that encroaches on striker territory, and with a combination of Clinging Drones, Grasping Claws, and the Guardian's innate durability it can even step up to the plate if the defender goes down.  I'd be tempted to take the framework of this build and try to inject more leader into it (Shaman M/C + Mending Spirit would be a great first start, and some leader utilities would round it out).  Wonder how that would work out in play, lol.

As a side note, I'll try to get the powers from the CA article into the guide within the next few days.

I'd be happy to have these builds posted in the sample builds section.  I wouldn't have been able to make them without your guide!  (My final updated Guardian Striker build appears below.)

I was also impressed by the ability to cover multiple roles with the Guardian builds.  Guardians have no problem keeping up with the striker damage of Predators (especially with access to the con-based Blightbeast PP), and they get to be more durable on top of that.  Then you can build on to that durability some off-tank powers that make you just as good of a defender as Swarm builds, since you have a much higher AC to make up for the lack of damage reduction.  Though to really push the secondary defender role, I think you'll need to pick up the Guardian of the World Tree ED.

Thus, I went back and changed the ED for the Guardian Striker build:
Spoiler: Show

This changes the final dpr of the build at 30th to 68.425 + Immobilization, which is still good since the baseline striker dpr (according to the DPR King thread) for 30th level is 66.

I also enjoyed the increased control and durability that came with a Guardian version of the Polearm build with the addition of a focus on summoning.  All that summoning will also boost overall DPR (though I'm not sure how to calculate how much of a boost) and you can do a bit of off-tanking with the summons themselves since they act as a HP sink.

Great guide!

I'm really quite in love with my level 14 druid.

Dwarf - Guardian - Blighted Beast
He uses farseeing earthfall totem, iron armbands of power and claw gloves.  Powers really focused on push, slide and knockdown.  Lots of damage for melee beast form powers (big jump too when I get the level 17 earthfall totem).

He's tough as nails too.  Dwarven durability and other feats that synergize with second wind.  

 

I had to stop reading about page 5, time constarints, so I apologize if this has been mentioned already.  There is a fighter build (Iron Curtain) posted that uses MC Assassin or MC Monk to get the Iron Body Ki Focus.  You supposedly get the Ki Focus enhancements instead of a weapon (staff) per PHB3 but you get the weapon properties.  It also has resist 2 + enhancement to all attacks made by foes you have attacked, so imagine stacking this with beast form!  Or is that too cheesy?  MC assassin for the poison build, pick up a ki focus and you are on your way.

Jul 24, 2010 -- 9:15AM, Fing_Fang_Foom wrote:

I had to stop reading about page 5, time constarints, so I apologize if this has been mentioned already.  There is a fighter build (Iron Curtain) posted that uses MC Assassin or MC Monk to get the Iron Body Ki Focus.  You supposedly get the Ki Focus enhancements instead of a weapon (staff) per PHB3 but you get the weapon properties.  It also has resist 2 + enhancement to all attacks made by foes you have attacked, so imagine stacking this with beast form!  Or is that too cheesy?  MC assassin for the poison build, pick up a ki focus and you are on your way.

I wouldn't say it's too cheesy, as there's definitely a tradeoff.  There are no superior ki focuses at this time, so you lose out on that.  Plus you couldn't use weapon focus, specific staff enhancements (Staff of Ruin, Summoner's Staff, Staff of Aversion), or a Siberys Shard of the Mage.  These are also some of the main reasons why it's more optimal for a Monk to use a weapon as an implement, as opposed to a Ki Focus.


I would also like to announce that I've made some updates to this guide:

• The intro has been modified to include a "why play a Druid?" section, much like many of the other handbooks have.
• The combos section has been re-formatted for readability and consistency with other guides.
• Squad's Guardian builds have been added to the Sample Builds section.  On a similar note, I've updated my Polearm Build with Repel Charge at 11th level (something I've been meaning to do pretty much since PHB3 was released). 
• I've added the powers from the most recent Class Acts article (Dragon 389). 

Quick question about "Vine Serpents" does the effect trigger when the enemies are forced to move e.g. pushed, pulled, or slid out of the zone?

Yep

No ED's?

Great guide. Would just like to point out an additional option for revenant swarm druids (mainly AoE) and that's taking the Eladrin race. You get access to fey step as a feat and access to a very mobile/defensive minded racial PP. Fey Leap @ level 11 also allows you to skip Feywild Sojourn power @ 10 to take Armour of the Wild.

I posted a question in the Q&A forums that is relevant to Druids that are going the Polearm route that I will ask here as well:

Surprising Charge feat + Alfsair Spear = [W] damage on your Savage Rend on a charge?

Surprising Charge:
When you make a charge attack against a target that is granting combat advantage to you, the attack deals 1[W] extra damage if you hit with a light blade or a spear.

Didn't see it in the guide, so I figured it was probably not included for a reason (ie. not working lol), but just wanted to make sure! It seems like it meets the same conditions as other Weapliment feats (ie. Polearm Momentum working on weapon or implement attacks), so not sure why it wouldn't work.

Aug 17, 2010 -- 6:47AM, ZephyrTempest wrote:

I posted a question in the Q&A forums that is relevant to Druids that are going the Polearm route that I will ask here as well:

Surprising Charge feat + Alfsair Spear = [W] damage on your Savage Rend on a charge?

Surprising Charge:
When you make a charge attack against a target that is granting combat advantage to you, the attack deals 1[W] extra damage if you hit with a light blade or a spear.

Didn't see it in the guide, so I figured it was probably not included for a reason (ie. not working lol), but just wanted to make sure! It seems like it meets the same conditions as other Weapliment feats (ie. Polearm Momentum working on weapon or implement attacks), so not sure why it wouldn't work.

I'm pretty sure that you can't add +[W] damage to an Implement attack like Savage Rend.

I'm wondering whether Primal Summoner should be rated higher as a summoner paragon path than Pack Lord.  I guess my concern comes in really at epic level, where the Primal Summoning Expertise feat becomes available.  The benefit of that feat is being able to use minor actions to give the summons standard action attacks.  If you do that, then they won't be making instinctive actions.  It seems though that the Primal Summoner path is strongest when you let the summons take instinctive actions, since they get HP and attack bonuses.

This leads me to think that if you focus on instinctive actions then you want Primal Summoner, but otherwise you'd get more out of the bonuses from Pack Lord if you plan to use the Primal Summoning Expertise feat instead.  Does that sound right, or have I missed something?

Aug 17, 2010 -- 3:07PM, Squad wrote:

Aug 17, 2010 -- 6:47AM, ZephyrTempest wrote:

I posted a question in the Q&A forums that is relevant to Druids that are going the Polearm route that I will ask here as well:

Surprising Charge feat + Alfsair Spear = [W] damage on your Savage Rend on a charge?

Surprising Charge:
When you make a charge attack against a target that is granting combat advantage to you, the attack deals 1[W] extra damage if you hit with a light blade or a spear.

Didn't see it in the guide, so I figured it was probably not included for a reason (ie. not working lol), but just wanted to make sure! It seems like it meets the same conditions as other Weapliment feats (ie. Polearm Momentum working on weapon or implement attacks), so not sure why it wouldn't work.

I'm pretty sure that you can't add +[W] damage to an Implement attack like Savage Rend.

You can't add another die of damage because the Alfsair Spear doesn't have any weapon dice.

Aug 14, 2010 -- 3:33PM, Koval wrote:

No ED's?

I know, I know, I'm terrible when it comes to those, lol.  I've been meaning to make this section for months, but I have no experience with Epic so I just kept putting it off.  Maybe I'll have time around the holidays to whip up some ratings for them.

Aug 28, 2010 -- 4:52PM, Squad wrote:

I'm wondering whether Primal Summoner should be rated higher as a summoner paragon path than Pack Lord.  I guess my concern comes in really at epic level, where the Primal Summoning Expertise feat becomes available.  The benefit of that feat is being able to use minor actions to give the summons standard action attacks.  If you do that, then they won't be making instinctive actions.  It seems though that the Primal Summoner path is strongest when you let the summons take instinctive actions, since they get HP and attack bonuses.

This leads me to think that if you focus on instinctive actions then you want Primal Summoner, but otherwise you'd get more out of the bonuses from Pack Lord if you plan to use the Primal Summoning Expertise feat instead.  Does that sound right, or have I missed something?

A fair point, and as I stated in response to the above question it's probably a simple matter of me not having any experience in the Epic tier, thus I've overlooked that.  Comparing the two PPs in a vacuum, Primal Summoner is clearly better IMO, and I maintain that it's the better choice if you don't plan on hitting Epic (as is the case for most groups), or even if you only expect to get a few levels into Epic.  In general, I've never been a huge fan of "endgame optimization," since you'll still have to survive Paragon tier, and in general I get the impression that death isn't as big a deal once you hit Epic (thus, in my mind Paragon optimization trumps Epic optimization). 

But you're absolutely right, if you plan on spending a lot of time in Epic (especially if your campaign starts in Epic), Pack Lord is a better choice since it plays nicely with Primal Summoning Expertise.

EDIT:  I've updated the comments in the Paragon Path section to reflect this, though I'm hesitant to change the ratings of the paths for the reasons stated above.

Aug 28, 2010 -- 4:57PM, Grey_Warden wrote:

Aug 17, 2010 -- 3:07PM, Squad wrote:

Aug 17, 2010 -- 6:47AM, ZephyrTempest wrote:

I posted a question in the Q&A forums that is relevant to Druids that are going the Polearm route that I will ask here as well:

Surprising Charge feat + Alfsair Spear = [W] damage on your Savage Rend on a charge?

Surprising Charge:
When you make a charge attack against a target that is granting combat advantage to you, the attack deals 1[W] extra damage if you hit with a light blade or a spear.

Didn't see it in the guide, so I figured it was probably not included for a reason (ie. not working lol), but just wanted to make sure! It seems like it meets the same conditions as other Weapliment feats (ie. Polearm Momentum working on weapon or implement attacks), so not sure why it wouldn't work.

I'm pretty sure that you can't add +[W] damage to an Implement attack like Savage Rend.

You can't add another die of damage because the Alfsair Spear doesn't have any weapon dice.

This.  It's impossible to get "extra" weapon damage if you don't have any in the first place.  Essentially, this feat only works if the power you're using it with has the "weapon" keyword (or obviously if it's a melee basic attack, which I can't remember whether it's technically considered a power or not). 

I'd like to get people's opinions on which would be a better defensive choice for a Guardain (i.e. high Con) Druid at epic level:

1.  Wild Surge + Vital Form - for 2 minor/free action second winds per encounter

or

2.  Primal Aspect Form + Rapid Regeneration - for 10 Regeneration while Bloodied

You may want to update some things.  Essentials changes, wild shape update (only implement and weapon powers are prohibited without the beast keyword), and the update to 1/2 elves (now can be con/wis and a new racial that is actualy good for a beast shpaed druid) just to name a few.

Nov 5, 2010 -- 6:33PM, The_Crimson_Dawn wrote:

You may want to update some things.  Essentials changes, wild shape update (only implement and weapon powers are prohibited without the beast keyword), and the update to 1/2 elves (now can be con/wis and a new racial that is actualy good for a beast shpaed druid) just to name a few.

Drow can now be dex/wis too and because of the change nearly all utility powers can be used in beast form now.

Blood Spray Bite (PrP):  Solid  damage, and if you're a Predator you'll be pushing a LOT of creatures  (just don't target soldiers or brutes with the initial attack, as it's  vs Fortitude).  Remember that you don't have to push in a straight line  forward; as long as each square moved is further away from you, you can  push different enemies in converging trajectories to clump them (into a  zone, or to set them up for an AoE).  Since the push is based off of the  original melee attack, Rushing Cleats and Fierce Thrasher form both  increase the push distance.   You can even do damage to pushed enemies if you have an Earthfall Totem  (AMAZING minion clearing potential!).  An excellent power for  re-shaping the battlefield.

Does Earthfall Totem really work this way? It says "you deal 1d6 extra damage to each creature that was pushed, slid, or knocked prone" Doesn't that imply your dealing damage in the first place? If it works, does that also mean it adds 1d6 to the secondary attack of Grasping Tide? What about the knock down on Lightning Arc? I'm leveling up to 7 and I just want to make sure I'm using the Totem right before moving on. Thanks!

Nov 6, 2010 -- 1:38AM, KerenskySJ wrote:

Blood Spray Bite (PrP):  Solid damage, and if you're a Predator you'll be pushing a LOT of creatures (just don't target soldiers or brutes with the initial attack, as it's vs Fortitude).  Remember that you don't have to push in a straight line forward; as long as each square moved is further away from you, you can push different enemies in converging trajectories to clump them (into a zone, or to set them up for an AoE).  Since the push is based off of the original melee attack, Rushing Cleats and Fierce Thrasher form both increase the push distance.  You can even do damage to pushed enemies if you have an Earthfall Totem (AMAZING minion clearing potential!).  An excellent power for re-shaping the battlefield.

Does Earthfall Totem really work this way? It says "you deal 1d6 extra damage to each creature that was pushed, slid, or knocked prone" Doesn't that imply your dealing damage in the first place? If it works, does that also mean it adds 1d6 to the secondary attack of Grasping Tide? What about the knock down on Lightning Arc? I'm leveling up to 7 and I just want to make sure I'm using the Totem right before moving on. Thanks!

Good catch, I'm not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that description.  I think someone on the boards recommended the combo to me, and I just assumed it was valid (I never use Totems if I can help it).  You are correct though; if a power doesn't do any damage to a target, you can't deal "extra" damage. 

EDIT:  As soon as I have some free time (hopefully next weekend), I'll make everything consistent with the new Wild Shape errata.  I'm curious to see how this affects some of the utility powers, but I'm thinking that it'll mostly just make them a bit less of a hassle to use. 

Just wondering, what are the rules on using an impliment in each hand? Can you do it? Do you choose what impliment you are using with each power or what?

Nov 13, 2010 -- 8:16AM, Faulc wrote:

Just wondering, what are the rules on using an impliment in each hand? Can you do it? Do you choose what impliment you are using with each power or what?

Yep, that's what I do.

Is there a size limitation or something? like can I hold two staffs or do I need something small such as a totem in the offhand?

I believe Weapon Focus no longer works with Implement powers, even when wielding a staff. There is Implement Focus, though.

Nov 13, 2010 -- 8:19PM, Faulc wrote:

Is there a size limitation or something? like can I hold two staffs or do I need something small such as a totem in the offhand?

You only need one hand to wield a staff as an implement, so yes it's legal to hold one in each hand.  I, however, think it's aesthetically pretty lame so my characters never do it despite the mechanical advantages.

Nov 14, 2010 -- 8:25AM, alien270 wrote:

You only need one hand to wield a staff as an implement, so yes it's legal to hold one in each hand.  I, however, think it's aesthetically pretty lame so my characters never do it despite the mechanical advantages.

Lord of the Rings (movie) made it "cool" now to dual wield staff+sword, which is thematically probably worse

Nov 14, 2010 -- 10:14AM, Corwynn wrote:

Nov 14, 2010 -- 8:25AM, alien270 wrote:

You only need one hand to wield a staff as an implement, so yes it's legal to hold one in each hand.  I, however, think it's aesthetically pretty lame so my characters never do it despite the mechanical advantages.

Lord of the Rings (movie) made it "cool" now to dual wield staff+sword, which is thematically probably worse

Well, if you want to play an aged character with a sword you can at least justify that the staff is a walking stick   Think of Yoda, the little guy's incredible with a lightsaber, but still hobbles around on his cane when he's not fighting.

Nov 14, 2010 -- 8:25AM, alien270 wrote:

Nov 13, 2010 -- 8:19PM, Faulc wrote:

Is there a size limitation or something? like can I hold two staffs or do I need something small such as a totem in the offhand?

You only need one hand to wield a staff as an implement, so yes it's legal to hold one in each hand.  I, however, think it's aesthetically pretty lame so my characters never do it despite the mechanical advantages.

Why would you want to wield two staves?  Since you are not using arcane powers you do not get to use the dual implement feat so is there some benefit I do not know about?

One Hand: Lightshield+Defensive Staff

Aversion Staff is another one that works in the off-hand.

Nov 14, 2010 -- 10:38AM, The_Crimson_Dawn wrote:

Why would you want to wield two staves?  Since you are not using arcane powers you do not get to use the dual implement feat so is there some benefit I do not know about?

My lvl 7 Predator charging druid actually does it for the different implement properties.

For instance, for most of the attacks he uses his Staff of the Serpent +2.  However, this only works on melee attacks.  When he's about to use his daily Savage Frenzy (close burst 1) power he uses his Staff of the War Mage +1, to increase it to a close burst 2, which makes a big difference

It's perhaps not optimal (aversion or defensive sound better), but it's what that characters has as magic items.

Its cool I thought that this was one of those many "I will use dual implement expertise" ideas.  I do not know why only arcane characters can use two implements together at once but thats the breaks.

So question Alien,  I just saw new article released today.  Bazaar of the Bizzare, Eladrin Item....  Winged Shield, would this work in beast form since your not actually holding it.  Your considered to be wielding it but its not on you.

Your description for Salve of Power still states that it renews a Daily attack power, when it was changed quite a bit ago to renew an encounter power. I'm sure you're aware of this, but just haven't gotten around to changing it yet :3