I can't help but feel I've contributed to the game somehow.
I'm sure you have. So thanks for making a fun compition, as well as helping make a better game.
Agreed. This thread has definitely pushed me towards much better builds than I was originally creating. I know the game isn't all about DPR, but the damage part matters quite a bit and threads like this help in optimizing that aspect of the game. Thanks!
As per white lotus riposte, I can see no other option for the monster. It is indeed a catch 22 with a few exceptional exceptions (teleport is all I can think of). If you can hit them and prone them then by all means assume the catch 22. Love it.
Here's my version of the Warlock charger - this is a level 30 build and a Hybrid Assassin and Warlock (so that I can use Greatspear as my main weapon and as an implement for my Warlock powers). The DPR consists of 3 attacks - the initial charge attack which prones, the follow-up MBA from Kulkor Arms Master, and a catch-22 situation where I can follow up with another Eldritich Strike if the enemy attacks me or an OA if it attacks someone else. All the attacks use Eldritich Strike, result in slide 2 + prone, and the enemy should always end up prone and adjacent to me.
First Attack: Charge with Combat Advantage and Prime Shot:
The catch-22 atttack will result in the same damage as the second attack - unless the enemy attacks me, in which case White Lotus Riposte will also trigger for +9 Con damage. Otherwise the enemy will have to attack someone else and in the process draw an OA (either from using a ranged attack or from trying to charge after standing up).
So the final DPR total should be (if I've done this all correctly):
Total DPR = 188.625 + Prone ( or 196.275 if WLR triggered)
I should also mention that defensively with the Raven Knight ED, I gain Insubstantial and Phasing whenever I charge, and any enemy adjacent to me takes a -2 penatly to attack rolls against me. Defense too!
ITEMS Shadow Warlock Starleather Armor +6, Badge of the Berserker +6, Bracers of Mighty Striking (epic tier), Horned Helm (epic tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Eladrin Ring of Passage (paragon tier), Frost Greatspear +6, Gloves of Ice (epic tier), Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (epic tier) ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
Let me know if I made any mistakes in the calculations!
I may have found a mistake in my DPR calculations. My numbers for the 2nd and 3rd attack seem to assume a 100% hit rate with the initial attack, rather than the 90% hit rate. If so, then the damage is a bit lower on the second and third attacks:
MBA via Kulkor Arms Master and follow up OA or WLMR:
Here's my attempt at Warlock charger build. He's a Warforged Warden|Warlock/Fighter who gets 89.725 at-will DPR at 24th level without multiattacks of any kind. His Eldritch Strike charge attack pushes 1, slides 1, lowers AC by 1, slows, and grants CA and cold vulnerability. Basically, I stacked up all the usual Warforged charger bits plus frostcheese, Crippling Crush, and Draconic Arrogance.
POWERS Hybrid at-will 1: Thorn Strike Hybrid at-will 1: Eldritch Strike Past Spirit (Dragonborn): Dragon Breath Hybrid encounter 1: Roots of Stone Hybrid daily 1: Armor of Agathys Hybrid utility 2: Fast Hands Hybrid encounter 3: Cloud of Flies Hybrid daily 5: Thunder Step Hybrid utility 6: Treacherous Ice Hybrid encounter 7: Mordant Rains of Dis Hybrid daily 9: Form of the Vengeful Storm Hybrid utility 10: Ethereal Sidestep Hybrid encounter 13: Creeper's Grasp (replaces Cloud of Flies) Hybrid daily 15: Form of the Crushing Mountain (replaces Thunder Step) Hybrid utility 16: Caiphon's Disquieting Liberty Hybrid encounter 17: Rough Advantage (replaces Roots of Stone) Hybrid daily 19: Form of the Avalanche Unleashed (replaces Form of the Vengeful Storm) Hybrid utility 22: Eagle's Wings Hybrid encounter 23: Arrow of Arcane Light (replaces Creeper's Grasp)
ITEMS Heavy Shield, Cloak of Translocation +5, Horned Helm (paragon tier), Boots of Quickness (paragon tier), Ring of Retreat (paragon tier), Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Breakchain Tattoo (paragon tier), Thundergod Craghammer +5, Blood Fury Longsword +1, Adventurer's Kit, Crowbar, Climber's Kit, Dagger, Magic Wand +4, Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Bracers of Mighty Striking (epic tier), Battle Harness Darkhide Armor +4, Diamond Cincture (heroic tier) ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
My DPR calculations assume that WarWarWarFight is under the effects of Longtooth Shifting and has hit with Eldritch Strike the previous round. He can charge every round by Ethereal Sidestepping two squares back and then charging back in (unless he's immobilized, of course, but he has ways of dealing with that). He can activate Longtooth Shifting even when he's not bloodied by using his Blood Fury weapon.
Against a target that he's hit the previous round with Eldritch Strike, his charge is at +33 against AC 37 (thanks to the White Lotus Enervation AC penalty), hitting on a 4, doing 2d10 brutal 2 + 3d8 + 6d6 + 51 on a normal hit (average 96.5), or 5d12 + 141 on a crit (average 173.5). Expected value DPR is thus (.75 * 96.5) + (.10 * 173.5) = 89.725.
Against a fresh target, his charge is at +31 against AC 38, hitting on a 7, doing an average of 91.5 on a normal hit or 168.5 on a crit. Expected value DPR is thus (.60 * 91.5) + (.10 * 168.5) = 71.75.
Note that this isn't really a practical build. In a real game, I would put more of his feats into improving defenses and control rather than raw DPR. In particular, I would probably retrain Crippling Crush into Overwhelming Impact to give him an at-will daze. And drop the frostcheese for some defensive feats.
1. Is there a reason why you're not taking Impaling Spear in order to target Reflex instead of AC? Eldritch Strike counts as a MBA and you already have to MC into a martial class for the PP.
2. Am I correct in thinking that this build actually lacks an Implement for all the Warlock powers besides Eldritch Strike? If so, is there any way to fix that drawback? All the ways I can think of would require another class (Warlord, Assassin, Monk) or going Hybrid.
3. Why is Wisdom pumped up so high? I seem to be missing the advantage of it beyond what's needed for Polearm Momentum.
Edit - 4. Would it be worth it to make room in the build for White Lotus Riposte and Master Riposte? If the enemy starts its turn prone and adjacent to you, then it looks like it's likely to draw yet another attack - either by attacking you or by drawing an OA by charging or making a ranged attack while you're adjacent. Another MBA would outdamage a few of the feats already in the build.
Thanks for the critique. There is lots of good things there. 1. Impaling spear is not used as the build already hits on a 2. 2. Yeps... no implement. I mean, it can use powers fairly well if you found yourself an implement, but if it is not charging it is not getting anywhere near regular damage. 3. Wisdom was simply pumped to get an ok Will defence. Armour Prof chainmail was mainly taken to get a teleport distance of 3 (via Eladrin Armour), so Dex and Int were less useful. Wis can be sacrificed (and I do so below)
4. Awesome idea.
Rebuild (with massive thanks to Squad):
I dropped Armour Proficiency Chain and replaced it was 2x Eladrin Rings of Passage to make up the teleport distance. This allowed me to use Shadow Warlock Armour, which allowed me to drop Deadly draw, as teleporting will now give me combat advantage. Two feats makes White Lotus fit in beautifully. Defenses take a bit of a hit though (-1 AC, -4 Will, but +3 Ref).
The build assumes combat advantage thanks to Shadow Walk and teleporting 3 squares at will. Badge of the Berserker, in combination with they teleport should allow the character to charge an isolated enemy every turn.
ITEMS Thundergod Greatspear +5, Horned Helm (paragon tier), Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier), Gloves of Ice (epic tier), Badge of the Berserker +5, Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (epic tier), Eladrin Ring of Passage (paragon tier) (2), Shadow Warlock Feyleather Armor +4 ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
Chance to have hit last round (equals the chance to hit): 0.95
To-Hit: +30(34) to hit Ref 36
+8 Constitution +12 Half-level +5 Enhancement +2 Expertise +3 Proficiency (+2 Combat Advantage - applies all the time due to Shadow Warlock Armour) (+1 Prime Shot) (+1 Charging)
Charge Damage: 2d10 (3d10 with CA) + 2d6 + 2d6 + 38 thunder and cold damage (73.5 / 79) Crit: 5d12 + 82 (92 with CA) thunder and cold damage (114.5 / 124.5) +8 Constitution +5 Enhancement +3 Weapon Focus +4 Blood Pact of Cania +5 Dragonshard +4 Gloves of Ice +4 Iron Armbands of Power +2d6 Thundergod's +2d6 Horned Helm (+1d10 Surprising Charge) (+5 Called Shot)
Cold Vulnerability - 5 (applies 95% of the time and to every secondary attack)
Curse: 3d6 (10.5) Crit: 18
Secondary and Tertiary Attack: To-Hit: +30(33) to hit Ref 35
Great thread everyone, some really great designs have been contributed! I was looking for a playable build that didn’t rely on too many unrealistic assumptions. In my experience our rogues (and generally any melee class at low level) usually had CA about 60% of the time and chargers have been able to charge about 50% of the time.
Using the above percentages I wanted to find a build that about to produce 15+ dpr at level 1. Looking at the top level 1 Kings:
The Assault Swordmage|Warlock dpr requires you hit your enemy with eyebite in the previous round, every round – how is that possible?
Bugbear Rogue|Swordmage riposte has a non-PHB race requires combat advantage, and getting attacked by creature while it’s mark deterrent can only occur once per creature.
Gnoll Rogue|Swordmage requires a level 3 weapon, Combat advantage, and the same deal with requiring the enemy to hit you with a mark deterrent attack that only works once per creature
The Bugbear Brutal Rogue is great, but it uses a non-PHB race and the difference between having CA and not is 10dpr! (avg. 15.93 dpr using the 60/40 assumption)
The Suicide Bomber is a very innovative build, but the drawback of course is that you damage yourself as well
And again the Wizard|Warlock rebuke build suffers without the ability to enforce any attack on itself
So the first high DPR build that caught my attention was the Githzerai Assassin (which is a great build), but I really wanted one with a MBA focus.
So I’ve created a Paladin|Warlock for a mid-range DPR (but playable and with few assumptions) level 1 candidate. The idea to charge when able, otherwise a standard MBA with Eldritch Strike and then put the enemy in an unlimited catch-22 where it will take automatic damage if it attacks another player, or automatic damage if it attacks you (as long as you hit it first).
Dark Paladin Human Paladin|Warlock Cha 20 Crimson Fire, White Lotus Riposte Maul, Eldritch Strike
Charge Attack with Eldritch Strike: +7 vs AC or +8 vs AC (Ch) Hit: 2d6+5 (13) Curse: 1d10 (5.5) White Lotus Riposte: Cha (5) Divine Challenge: Cha (5)
For the DPR King submission:
Assumption of 100% Charge and 50% chance the enemy will attack us back: (0.65*18.5 + 0.5*27) + (0.7*5 +5)/2 DPR = 16.975 (Ch)
More realistic approach: Assumption of 50% Charge and 100% chance the enemy will attack us back: (0.625*18.5 + 0.5*27) + 0.675*5 DPR = 15.66
1. Is there a reason why you're not taking Impaling Spear in order to target Reflex instead of AC? Eldritch Strike counts as a MBA and you already have to MC into a martial class for the PP.
2. Am I correct in thinking that this build actually lacks an Implement for all the Warlock powers besides Eldritch Strike? If so, is there any way to fix that drawback? All the ways I can think of would require another class (Warlord, Assassin, Monk) or going Hybrid.
3. Why is Wisdom pumped up so high? I seem to be missing the advantage of it beyond what's needed for Polearm Momentum.
Edit - 4. Would it be worth it to make room in the build for White Lotus Riposte and Master Riposte? If the enemy starts its turn prone and adjacent to you, then it looks like it's likely to draw yet another attack - either by attacking you or by drawing an OA by charging or making a ranged attack while you're adjacent. Another MBA would outdamage a few of the feats already in the build.
Thanks for the critique. There is lots of good things there. 1. Impaling spear is not used as the build already hits on a 2. 2. Yeps... no implement. I mean, it can use powers fairly well if you found yourself an implement, but if it is not charging it is not getting anywhere near regular damage. 3. Wisdom was simply pumped to get an ok Will defence. Armour Prof chainmail was mainly taken to get a teleport distance of 3 (via Eladrin Armour), so Dex and Int were less useful. Wis can be sacrificed (and I do so below)
4. Awesome idea.
Rebuild (with massive thanks to Squad):
I dropped Armour Proficiency Chain and replaced it was 2x Eladrin Rings of Passage to make up the teleport distance. This allowed me to use Shadow Warlock Armour, which allowed me to drop Deadly draw, as teleporting will now give me combat advantage. Two feats makes White Lotus fit in beautifully. Defenses take a bit of a hit though (-1 AC, -4 Will, but +3 Ref).
ITEMS Thundergod Greatspear +5, Horned Helm (paragon tier), Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier), Gloves of Ice (epic tier), Badge of the Berserker +5, Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (epic tier), Eladrin Ring of Passage (paragon tier) (2), Shadow Warlock Feyleather Armor +4 ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
Damage: 2d10 + 38 cold damage (49) Crit: 5d6 + 58 cold and thunder damage (75.5) +8 Constitution +5 Enhancement +3 Weapon Focus +4 Blood Pact of Cania +5 Dragonshard +4 Gloves of Ice +4 Iron Armbands of Power (+5 Called Shot)
Secondary Attack and Tertiary DPR: = 0.85 x (44 + 5) + 0.05 x (75.5 + 5) = 49.93
Total DPR: 0.95 x (0.9 x (79 + 10.5 + 5 + 49.93 + 49.93) + 0.05 x (124.5+ 18 + 5 + 49.93)) + 0.05 x (0.9 x (79 + 10.5 + 49.93 + 49.93) + 0.05 x (119.5 + 18 + 49.93 + 49.93)) =180.07
Glad to help. One question about your DPR calculations though. You have both (+1 Prime Shot) and (+2 Primed Curse), but I thought Primed Curse just bumps your Prime Shot bonus from +1 to +2, rather than adding an additional +2.
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
