I'll be going with Freezing Bolts and Surprising Bolts, as I haven't figured out any way to really optimize crit fishing with a crossbow yet. If I do, I might swap to Dual Bolts.
Anyway, looking at cost of: +5 Freezing Bolts, I can get 183 of them instead of my +6 Frost X-Bow. Even buying a +5 Swiftshot Superior Crossbow, I can still get 157 Freezing Bolts. Since I doubt I'll average more than 5 attacks per round (Triple Shot + Snap Shot + Disruptive Strike), that means at minimum I get 31 rounds of combat; which, at epic, is a reasonable 5 encounters, and hopefully I can replenish some of them with loot from those 5 encounters.
Looking at level 6 with +1 Surprising Bolts, I give up my +2 Vicious Superior Crossbow and I end up with a +1 Magic Superior Crossbow and 74 Surprising Bolts. At this level, I average less than two attacks per round; so at least 37 rounds of combat, which is still 5 encounters + recovered ones from loot.
I don't think cost is particularly a problem for using ammunition, as long as you are reducing your weapon to match the new enhancement.
The only real problem is that if I use ammuntion over my entire career, I'm going to actually 'lose' a significant chunk of change. (For instance, during my entire life as a level 6 character, I could potentially use up 100 Surprising Bolts although I've never kept actual track, so I have no idea how accurate this is; but 100 bolts is 3000 gold lost.) Roughly the equivalent of a level 7 item.. which at level 6 is significant. In theory, I would probably 'use' the same ratio every level, which would mean 'losing' a level +1 item every level, which would be expensive in the long term, even if it is reasonable at any given level. It's still not prohibitive, as the re-sale value of such an item eventually becomes insignificant; but it would cause the most problems somewhere around 2 levels after you started using ammunition. So if I started at level 6, around level 8 I would probably find myself wondering where all my share of the loot was, even though if I magically jumped to level 16, I wouldn't notice the loss (although I would notice the loss from the ammo used at level 14.)
If anyone cares to actually figure out a formula for all that, I'd love to see use it.
That being said, I'm going to post a new thread for my namesake build (which needs an actual name, since even though my character's name is Nelphine, no one else will particularly relate to that as a build name.) For benchmarks, she hits roughly (I haven't calculated ammunition + actually using feat slots on expertise/focus yet) 29 DPR at level 6, 63 DPR at level 12, 88 DPR at level 16, 138 DPR at level 21, maxing out at 170 DPR at level 28 - note that it decreases to 167 at level 30.
Damage Bonus Sources: +6 (Strength) +5 (Called Shot) +4 item (Iron Armbands of Power) +3 (Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold) +3 enhancement (+3 weapon) +2 (Gloves of Ice) +2 feat (Weapon Focus) +1 (Two-Weapon Fighting, main hand only)
Twin Strike: 2 attacks, +24 vs. AC with CA (+26 vs. AC when no allies are adjacent) Hit, Main Hand: 2d4+24 cold damage Crit, Main Hand: 3d6+32 cold damage Hit, Off Hand: 2d4+23 cold damage Crit, Off Hand: 3d6+31 cold damage Hunter’s Quarry: +2d6 cold damage Swift Blade Style: 5 damage Blade Storm: 5 damage Twin-Blade Storm: 5 lightning damage to two targets
DPR: (0.80)*(29) + (0.05)*(42.5) + (0.80)*(28) + (0.05)*(41.5) + (0.85)*(0.85)*(5) + ([0.80]2 + 2*[0.15]*[0.80])*(7) + (1-[0.05]2)*(12) + (5) + (5) = 70.74 DPR, and 5.00 DPR to a secondary target
Ability Scores: Str 27, Con 15, Dex 25, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12
Feats: Called Shot Lasting Frost Light Blade Mastery Nimble Blade Prime Hunter Prime Punisher Prime Quarry Rending Tempest Spiked Chain Training Swift Blade Style Two-Weapon Fighting Two-Weapon Opening Weapon Expertise (Light Blades) Weapon Focus (Light Blades) Wintertouched
Gear: +5 Frost Spiked Chain Gloves of Ice (Epic Tier) Iron Armbands of Power (Paragon Tier) Ring of Giants Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (Paragon Tier)
i haw built a charging rogue whot is the criteria to be a candidate ?
can i asume combat advantage on a charge ?
whot is the limit for items?
if my calculations ar right and i use vanguard i off-hans and hew combat advantage on the charge and onely dameging items while boddied on a mounted bore the DPR is 44.575
but i dont know whot i can asume and all the rules
i hawe deslexia and english is not my maden languadge so excuse my spelling
i haw built a charging rogue whot is the criteria to be a candidate ?
can i asume combat advantage on a charge ?
whot is the limit for items?
if my calculations ar right and i use vanguard i off-hans and hew combat advantage on the charge and onely dameging items while boddied on a mounted bore the DPR is 44.575
but i dont know whot i can asume and all the rules
i hawe deslexia and english is not my maden languadge so excuse my spelling
please respond thanks
You can assume Combat advantage, but your DPR will have a (CA) next to it signifying such. The same with charging builds. Unless you can explain how you are going to be charging the same target round after round w/o provoking an Opportunity attack you will have a (Ch) next to your DPR. The limit for items is that the total gold does not exceed the total cost of a Level + 1 item, a level Item and 2x Level-1 items. When you calculate your DPR please do a breakdown of where each of your bonuses are coming from. That way we can help you find any errors you may have had. Keep in mind that a level 6 rogue is going to have a hard time charging into combat advantage, but I am trying to be unbiased.
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Does anyone have a rule to propose with support from intended average battle revenue or something like that so we can make a rule for ammunition?
Proposed General Rule: * You must have purchased enough ammo to cover you for 160 rounds of combat.
Corollary: * So if you're a ranger shooting 2 arrows a round, you'll need 320 magic ammo.
Rationale, and the Math: D&D essentially assumes you replace 3 of your items every 5 levels (you have an item of your level +1, of your level, and of your level -1). The items that you replace essentially make up the rest of your gold (your level -1). This is because of the exponential curve in item prices as they level.
If you're using only ammunition, you can actually get away with just using a +1 bow with whatever enhancement you want on it. So I think it's fair to consider ammo as one of your "3 items" you replace.
That means you need enough ammo to cover you for 5 levels. On average, in D&D it takes 7-9 combat encounters to level up. We'll say 8 encounters. We'll assume 4 rounds per encounter (as average... some are much shorter, some are longer). For 5 levels, that means you'll need 8*4*5=160 ammo.
Let's run some numbers to see if they're sane: * At level 16, that means that if it's the equivalent of an item of your level (45k gold), you'd be able to afford 160 arrows that each cost 281 gold if you're shooting 1 arrow/round, or 320 arrows that each cost 140 gold if you're shooting 2 arrows/round. That sounds correct to me.
RX also remebered me boars knock prone and another build was born, letting boar knock them prone and then... hit them with Headman's Chop! Chop!Chop!Chop!Chop! Longtooth Shifter Ranger 6 Str 20, Wis 18 Running Attack feats: Gorebrute Charge, Headman's Chop, WE, Mounted Combat gear: Mage's Fullblade +2, Horned Helm, Dire Boar
Fullblade Marauder's Rush Attack: +16 vs AC Hit: 1d12 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 18.5 breakdownShow
I can automatically trigger the secondary damage of Hellish Rebuke with the off-hand Shadowrift Blade. If I get all the same modifiers on the secondary damage (which I assume I do, but I'm not 100% sure), then I can just double the damage:
Final DPR = 121.977
That doesn't include any potential damage from White Lotus Riposte and Master Riposte. I wasn't sure how to calculate that, and with the damage dealt above I doubt an enemy would choose to incur another shot.
Attack, Damage, and Critical details: Spoiler:Show
2d6 Hellish Rebuke, +8 Con, +6 Enhancement, +3 Dual, +3 Focus, +3d6+7 Curse, +7 CA (Radiant One), +6 Radiant Weapon, +2d6 CA (Hands of Hadar), +2 Radiant Set
Critical 18-20 Range, Radiant Dagger +6d6, Executioner's Bracers +3d6, Ring of Giants +12
*Note - I used someone's suggestion in this thread regarding anydice.com to calculate the effects of the Ring of the Radiant Storm on damage (since it allows you to roll the damage dice twice and keep the higher result).
Here's the build itself - Human Warlock, Student of Caiphon, Radiant One: Spoiler:Show
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== HW2, level 30 Human, Warlock, Student of Caiphon, Radiant One Build: Scourge Warlock Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast Constitution Eldritch Pact: Star Pact Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade) Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Rod) Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (light blade group) Twofold Pact: Vestige Pact Background: Buried Alive (Dark) (Endurance class skill)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 26, Dex 15, Int 24, Wis 12, Cha 13.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 8, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 11.
FEATS Human: Weapon Focus (Light Blade) Level 1: Bloodied Boon Level 2: Dual Implement Spellcaster Level 4: White Lotus Riposte Level 6: Versatile Expertise Level 8: Arcane Implement Proficiency Level 10: Superior Implement Training (Accurate dagger) Level 11: Reserve Maneuver Level 12: White Lotus Master Riposte Level 14: Relentless Curse Level 16: Twofold Curse Level 18: Twofold Pact Level 20: Paragon Defenses (retrained to Robust Defenses at Level 21) Level 21: Epic Will Level 22: Warding Curse Level 24: Nimble Blade Level 26: Student of the Athanaeum Level 28: Cursed Spells Level 30: Epic Resurgence
POWERS Bonus At-Will Power: Eyes of the Vestige (retrained to Hellish Rebuke at Level 12) Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast Reserve Maneuver: Fortune Binding Warlock encounter 1: Chains of Levistus Warlock daily 1: Flames of Phlegethos Warlock utility 2: Ethereal Stride Warlock encounter 3: Frigid Darkness Warlock daily 5: Vestige of Ugar Warlock utility 6: Grit and Spittle Warlock encounter 7: Mordant Rains of Dis Warlock daily 9: Feast of Souls (retrained to Vestige of the Onyx Queen at Level 13) Warlock utility 10: Reactive Surge Warlock encounter 13: Killing Flames (replaces Chains of Levistus) Warlock daily 15: Tendrils of Thuban (replaces Flames of Phlegethos) Warlock utility 16: Insightful Riposte Warlock encounter 17: Life Force Reclaimed (replaces Frigid Darkness) Warlock daily 19: Vestige of Kronata (replaces Vestige of Ugar) Warlock utility 22: Painful Transference Warlock encounter 23: Starless Void (replaces Mordant Rains of Dis) Warlock daily 25: Thirteen Baleful Stars (replaces Vestige of the Onyx Queen) Warlock encounter 27: Shattering of the Sword (replaces Killing Flames) Warlock daily 29: Doom of Delban (replaces Tendrils of Thuban)
ITEMS Shadow Warlock Starleather Armor +6, Hands of Hadar (epic tier), Ring of the Radiant Storm (paragon tier), Cloak of Distortion +6, Radiant Accurate dagger +6, Executioner's Bracers (epic tier), Eager Hero's Tattoo (paragon tier), Spark Slippers (paragon tier), Eye of Awareness (epic tier), Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Shadowrift Blade Accurate dagger +3, Belt of Breaching (paragon tier) ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
Please let me know if I made any mistakes in the DPR calculations.
@borg285 - One more bump for a build of mine to consider for level 30. Thanks!
), so I'll just say that we need another label for this.