The concern was that the build was only posting a +8 to death saves, so rolling a one was the fail. But it has been waved, so no big.

There is the possibility that, by RAW, the combination Sword of Kings + Power Strike is totally broken, because you can abuse the trigger rules and use Power Strike 1000 times off of a single MBA (discussed further here). I'm assuming the non-broken interpretation now though, where you can only trigger PS once per attack (because there's no sense in optimizing a broken thing).

Build Show

Martial Supremacy and OoE should always be active.

Attack sequence:
Shift away with Sandals of Avandra.
Charge with Virtuous Strike. Use Power Strike (with Brutal Axe) to add damage and knock prone on a hit.
If you hit, you get an MBA from KAM. If you crit, you get more MBAs from Rending (and these ones are recursive!).

Attacks Show
Damage Show
Expected DPR: (.648*82 + .3439*(226.5 + 226.1626/.6561)) + .981775*218.3002 + 5.9508 = 469.8467
Without damage from Power Strike: (.648*58 + .3439*(190.5 + 252.8298/.6561)) + .981775*241.989 + 5.9508 = 377.467

I included the damage without PS just as a reference because I was told a few times recently that using SoK with Power Strike was a bad way to use it...but it seems pretty effective to me (especially since, in this build, PS is doing more than just direct damage).

I didn't make many simplifications for the damage calcs...the only things I can think of are:
1) I just assumed you always have Triumphant Attack in effect (there's a >50% chance each turn that you'll get at least one crit, and the +2 attack isn't all that big a deal anyway)
2) I didn't include the rerolls from the Ring of Radiant Storm, because frankly the calculation is too complicated and doesn't really add much dpr
3) I added the Power of Sun vulnerability (and SoDL and DPE bonuses) to every attack, even though it might not apply on the charge if you missed during the previous round (again, doesn't make much difference at all)
4) Font of Radiance is assumed to always be saved against at the end of the creature's next turn

The parts of the build I expect are probably not RAI, even though they are RAW:
1) letting Rending trigger without limit
2) using Power Strike with SoK


VARIANT: Slightly lower dpr, but it's Wis-based so you can theoretically use some other powers (although defenses are even worse...). Also, used Polearm Momentum instead of Power Strike Specialization so that it could potentially take a different ED...though it'd be hard to find one that offered as much damage.

Radiant damage is provided via Stormsoul + Shocking Flame + Crown of the Brilliant Sun
Variation Show
Expected DPR: 440.5299
Without Power Strike:  348.7278

bleh people keep using recursive rending in builds which are comparable with my avenger/kam.. one of these days I'll have to use a rending weapon myself and see how high I can get it.  Anyone have any gut feeling that I can increase my 476 by quite a bit?

Jan 11, 2012 -- 7:35AM, Nelphine wrote:

bleh people keep using recursive rending in builds which are comparable with my avenger/kam.. one of these days I'll have to use a rending weapon myself and see how high I can get it.  Anyone have any gut feeling that I can increase my 476 by quite a bit?

As an epic tier avenger you're presumably critting on just under 1 in 5 attacks (crit on a 19+, rolling twice), and Rending is near to highest crit dice even without recursion (Your MBA will probably be doing around 66 damage, the average damage for a +6 bloodiron crit, assuming the monster lives to the second round), so it should make a considerable difference. The question is whether this will account for the loss of radiant damage on all your attacks (or whatever else you need to swap out to get it some other way)

Jan 11, 2012 -- 7:35AM, Nelphine wrote:

bleh people keep using recursive rending in builds which are comparable with my avenger/kam.. one of these days I'll have to use a rending weapon myself and see how high I can get it.  Anyone have any gut feeling that I can increase my 476 by quite a bit?

Yeah, you'll probably get a pretty good boost, but you will have to give up some other goodies to make it work.

Also, just as a sidenote, the fact that you have to take the 2nd roll with Martial Supremacy has a bigger effect than you seemed to think...I reran your dpr numbers with that taken into account (assumed you rerolled non-crits), and dpr dropped to 435.

Which isn't to badmouth your build or anything, because it's definitely one I was looking at for inspiration on how to optimize mine. Just pointing it out.

How are you knocking prone without Power Strike?

Jan 11, 2012 -- 9:15AM, Anihilation wrote:

How are you knocking prone without Power Strike?

Oh, I'm not...like I said, I was just throwing in a reference to how much direct damage PS was adding.

In the variant build, since prone happens via PM, the "without PS" number is actually usable.

Made changes to the level 6 and level 12 Riposte Thief submissions. With the new Pack Outcast fix, I can no longer self generate CA or reliably assume it. That being said, I had been thinking about swapping Vigilante Justice for all the builds with Cunning Stalker (as I already did with the level 1 build), since it is already a fairly common assumption to have a singled out enemy to wail on. This allowed trading up for Bugbear at level 6, which in the end netted about 1 DPR. The level 12 lost as a bugbear, since Backstabber is no longer made up for by the +2 Str and larger weapon die in paragon. This does leave my theme open for both, but I can't think of any at-will bonus from any worthwhile at the moment.

Level 6 changes: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Level 12 changes: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Nov 8, 2010 -- 10:37PM, langeweile wrote:

OK, as therewasn't any more input to the discussion, let's finish this...


L30 Bugbear Thief

the build Show

PP: Kulkor Arms Master
ED: Thief of Legends

30 Dex, 22 Wis, 17 Str
Gritty Sergeant Background: Rapier prof

Feats:
Light Blade Expertise, Surprising Charge, Silvery Glow, Battle Awareness, Weapon Proficiency (whatever Axe/Mace/Flail), Kulkor Arms Student;
Backstabber, Nimble Blade, Lasting Frost, Deft Blade, TW Fighting, TW Opening;
Light Blade Mastery, Acolyte Power (Martial Supremacy), Power Attack, TW Flurry, Focused Surperiority, Mobile Warrior

Powers:
Unbalancing Trick (Thief), Persistent Tail (L10 Stealth Utility)

Items:
+6 Frost Rapier, +6 Frost Short Sword, Horned Helmet (Epic), 2x Syberis Shard of Merciless Cold (Epic), Gloves of Ice (Epic), Bracers of Mighty Striking (Epic), Ring of Giants, War Ring;
Piwafwi +6, Shadowflow Armor +6, Talent Shards +5, Greyflower Perfumes; Boots of Adept Charging & Potions of Flight / Zephyr Boots

tactics Show

Stealth:
mod: + 15 lvl + 10 dex + 3 thief + 6 armor + 6 neck = +40 [+45 with Talent Shard], rolling twice (Thief)
passive: +50 / +55 due ED
=> perma invis, trivially succeeds at all checks

-- choose mob outside without allies in melee reach --

own turn:
(move) Unbalancing Trick to gain distance
(std) charge, which also prones due UT
(free) Kulkor Arms Master free attack
(free) shift 3x 1sq (BoAC, Mobile Warrior) to hide

enemy's turn:
-- hidden and can be at about any place adjacent to the mob --
--> mob needs to guess square (1/8 or worse) and still attacks vs AC 50
--> quasi stun if not going for allies
--> either moving or using ranged attack provokes an OA (shifting is irrelevant due mob proned and we being able to follow with Persistent Tail)
(OA) MBA
(no action) if OA hit off-hand MBA due Two-Weapon Flurry

normal: 366.88 DPR Show

To-Hit: 15 lvl + 10 dex + 3 prof + 6 enh + 3 exp + 3 CA + 1 WT = +41 vs Ref 42 = 5% miss // 85% hit // 10% crit; +/- mods; can roll again due Martial Supremacy

Charge: 10 dex + 5 finesse + 3 exp + 6 enh + 4 feat + 3d10 rapier + 5 vul + 5 Shard + 4 GoI + 3d6 HH + 6 item + 6 PA + 1 TWF [+ 6d6 crit + 12 RoG + 1d6 WR] = 82 normal // 139,5 crit

MBA Rapier: 10 dex + 5 finesse + 3 exp + 6 enh + 4 feat + 2d10 rapier + 5 vul + 5 Shard + 4 GoI + 6 item + 6 PA + 1 TWF [+ 6d6 crit + 12 RoG + 1d6 WR] [+ 6 Wis FS] = 66 normal // 111,5 crit, +6 OA

MBA Short Sword: 10 dex + 5 finesse + 3 exp + 6 enh + 4 feat + 2d8 Short Sword + 5 vul + 5 Shard + 4 GoI + 6 item + 6 PA + 1 TWF [+ 6d6 crit + 12 RoG + 1d6 WR] [+ 6 Wis FS] = 64 normal // 108,5 crit, +6 OA

SA: 5d8 = 27,5 normal // 40 crit
SS: 6 Wis

math note: rerolling a 10% chance of miss = repeat the same attack again in 10% of the cases = just add a 1,1 as factor

[Charge = 87,832] 1,05 * (0,85 * 82 + 0,1 * 139,5)
[Kulkor MBA = 70,169] 0,9975 * 1,1 * (0,8 * 66 + 0,1 * 111,5)
[SA = 35,711] 0,7854 * 27,5 + 0,203175 * 40 -- delay SA till second attack to crit-fish
= 187,732

[OA = 76,285] 1,1 * (0,8 * 72 + 0,1 * 117,5)
[--TWO = 7,508] 0,11 * 1,1 * (0,8 * 64 + 0,1 * 108,5)
[off-hand OA = 66,758] 0,99 * 1,35 * (0,55 * 70 + 0,1 * 114,5)
[SA = 28,6] 1,1 * (0,8 * 27,5 + 0,1 * 40)
= 179,151

--> 366,883 DPR

low cheese - add Dancing Weapons: 415.18 DPR Show

use minor to sustain Dancing Rapier +4

To-Hit: 15 lvl + 10 dex + 3 prof + 4 enh + 3 exp + 3 CA + 1 WT -2 PA = +37 vs Ref 42 = 20% miss // 70% hit // 10% crit; can roll again due Martial Supremacy

MBA Rapier: 10 dex + 5 finesse + 4 enh + 2d8 xbow + 6 item + 6 PA + 1 TWF [+ 4d6 crit + 8 RoG + 1d6 WR] = 46 normal // 80,5 crit

[Dancing MBA = 48,3]1,2 * (0,7 * 46 + 0,1 * 80,5)

--> 415,183 DPR

high cheese - exploit Two Fisted Shooter: 437.75 DPR Show

-- lose Surprising Charge for Two-Fisted Shooter
-- get a +6 Frost Hand Crossbow with another Epic Shard and tie it with a cord to your belt
-- put a Gauntlet Axe (no need for proficiency) on your off-hand to fulfill TW requirements
-- instead use a Battle Harness to draw / drop Xbow and Short Sword as free actions as needed


To-Hit: 15 lvl + 10 dex + 2 prof + 6 enh + 2 CA + 1 WT = +36 vs AC 44 = 35% miss // 60% hit // 5% crit; can roll again due Martial Supremacy

MBA Rapier: 10 dex + 5 finesse + 6 enh + 4 feat + 2d8 rapier + 5 vul + 5 Shard + 4 GoI [+ 6d6 crit + 12 RoG + 1d6 WR] = 48 normal // 91,5 crit

number of melee crits per round: (1,05 * 0,1 + 0,9975 * 1,1 * 0,1 + 1,2 * 0,1) + (1,1 * 0,1 + 1,1 * 0,1 * 1,1 * 0,1 + 0,99 * 1,35 * 0,1) = 0,590475
self-spawning RBA from TFS (use geometric progression): 1 / (1 - 1,35 * 0,05) = 1,072386

[lose Surprising Charge = -5,95875] (-1) * 1,05 * (0,85 * 5,5 + 0,1 * 10)
[TFS RBAs = 28,53] 0,590475 * 1,072386 * 1,35 * (0,6 * 48 + 0,05 * 91,5)

--> 437,754 DPR

NB: The build is very playable from L1 to L30 with few changes and comperatively little DPR loss.
Snapshots: L1 | L6 | L16
the build in actual play Show

First this build is basically the same that rocks the DPR charts already at L1 as Charging Thief. All you need to do is to make a few feat retrains.
Race is pretty much a wash as long as you keep one with +2 Dex. Best are Bugbears (higher Ws), Humans (extra feat) and Half-Orc (Ferocious Critical, bloodied abuse).
In reality you might even skip Kulkor Arms Master, as the benefits comes pretty late (L16) while you need some significant investment earlier (end of Heroic). There's a whole number of useful Rogue and Fighter PPs to use, and Champion of the Vigil is great as well.

Throw out a few feats that "only" give 10 or less DPR at L30 to make room for important stuff like Improved Defenses, Two-Weapon Defense, Toughness / Durable or Long Step, and whatever else you want - even at 300 DPR you smoke one standard mob per round...
High Wis is also not really important beyond oozing out the last DPR (using Focused Superiority & Slashing Storm), so possibly make room for more Con or even raise Cha instead of Wis.

Once you start getting extra attacks your classic nova gain is very little, because one extra attack (even without SA) compared to the four your already make each round is rather low. Better keep your APs to either recover the really seldom double miss when charging, or to charge and lockdown a second mob if you already pasted the first (particularly if you still have your free attack from Kulkor open).
If you still want that extra punch you can take Reserve Maneuver to get access to Snap Shot / Low Slash.
Backstabs also are more used for the +3 to hit against mobs with high defenses (Elites / Solos or significantly overleved ones).

While the Stealth trick as true at-will is only doable at L30, there are many ways to do it on an encounter basis, for example using a Greater Ring of Invisiblity or Delbian Vambraces. Armor of Dark Deeds and Phantom Chausurres also provide an easy source of at least concealment.

At last probably switch the off-hand Short Sword for a Dagger at little loss of damage, but big gain in flexibility.

I'm not sure I can agree with this logic. It makes sense that it'd work the first time, but after being hit with the full combo once, wouldn't the enemy just ready an action for when you're no longer hidden?

That's not even just some DM trick; I think even a real animal would, in a situation like what you described, bunker down and wait until it could find you. And more intelligent creatures would be even smarter with it.

From my perspective, this flavor of shenanigan is exactly what readied actions are intended for.

I'm really surprised that no one proposed this earlier (I did go through and read the discussion on the earlier pages). Am I somehow totally wrong that the enemy could do that? To me it seems like the logical reaction to the catch-22 you're giving.

Due to a bug in WotC web page code when I try and edit my first post the page hangs.  I believe it's due to some hard coded limit on the size of the post text that they expect.  When they try and pull out my post it hits a bug and hangs.  Thus I can't edit my first post, thus I can't update any candidates.  If I'm forced to create yet another DPR king candidates thread I'll allocate 4 posts to myself.

Lame, but oh well. Do you want to leave this thread for people to post/hash-out/discuss builds and link over (post builds in canidates, the new one are the vetted champs?), or would you prefer to just use one single thread for the whole shabang?

Jan 12, 2012 -- 4:51PM, onecrazymojo wrote:

Lame, but oh well. Do you want to leave this thread for people to post/hash-out/discuss builds and link over (post builds in canidates, the new one are the vetted champs?), or would you prefer to just use one single thread for the whole shabang?

My hope is that I can get WotC to send me the HTML of my current post and delete what they have in the database.  I'll then keep track of the character count myself and move some stuff to my second post.

I remember the old "some handy links" when I was doing 3.5 optimization, and a sad face came to me every time that a link was broken.  I know I'll never be able to get away from archived links to other threads, but I can encourage people to post in this thread and keep this one alive.  It has the majority of the builds of the candidates so the builds should live as long as this thread.  
I even kept the nerfed build links so you could see the genius that others put out there in case you want to cherry pick from them.

The only acceptable solutions I see(fix my first post, create new thread and redirect to that new one) involve me being able to edit my first post.  Thus I want to keep this thread alive at all costs.

I did the Rending math wrong, so I updated with a pretty big drop in dpr. I'll probably change things around tonight or tomorrow (dancing weapons would be beautiful on this build) to bring things back up a bit.

Couple general questions:
1) Am I correct that we're assuming 5 encounters per day?

2) Is it okay to use Rare items like a Vorpal weapon?

Yeah, I think Rare items are ok.  1 for heroic, 2 for paragon, 3 for epic.  Try to be conservative.  If they're boarerline artifact I may ask you to redo it.  Most of the time the DM is going to OK your rare item and give it to you in the end.  I'll probably put a new key/symbol for those that use rare items so lurkers can know that this build relies on you getting a specific set of rare items and may not work till you get it.  Thus the DM has the key to your build actually working, and thus he can postpone the massacre.

I just realized that I missed some posts critiquing my Revenant Monk build around Christmas. It's now updated to include those elements, along with a few other additions.

Also, multiple Ki Weapons do, in fact, stack. The only embargo on items of the same type not stacking is found on page 28 of the Rules Compendium, which says that "untyped bonuses from the same named game element... are not cumulative." The term "bonus," however, is later clarified to mean "[a] number added to a die roll" (RC309). Ergo, Ki Weapons provide no bonus, and thusly have no problems stacking.

I'm unfortunately going to have to disagree with Zathris on his point that figurines share their rider's pool of action, on the grounds of "specific overriding general." Page 180 of Adventurer's Vault states that the creatures summoned by figurines can be commanded via a minor action to take a standard, move, or minor action, although they only have a standard contingent. The specific rules for mount figurines, however, states that, when you are mounted on one of said creatures, it can be commanded using free actions, not minors. But the most important statement is that it still retains "its normal allotment of actions." Ergo, the general mount rules are overridden.

And finally, unless otherwise specifically noted, Flurry of Blows doesn't care what triggers it, as Psionic is its only keyword. Some effects, such as the Mighty Strike Ki Focus's property, change that relationship. The Ki Weapon has no such stipulation, and so just falls back on the general requirement that the item must be wielded (a term which, unfortunately, still has no definition).

EDIT: Does anyone have a working DPR calculation for Discple of Destruction? It's a wonderful tool, but I'm not quite sure how to quantify it.

ALSO EDIT: Borg, if WotC ever lets you control your thread again, could you delete two of the three iterations of this build on the level 12 listings? Also, I'd greatly appreciate it if you could change "Furry" into "Flurry"; this is a dignified warrior with the soul of an undead mutt, not a Razorclaw Shifter in hotpants.

The reason multiple foci do not stack is because you have to attack through them to get their benefit, and you can only attack through one at a time. Weilding, in the context of benefits to an attack has been pretty clearly delineated to mean "using the weapon to attack with." An example of this definition is the ruling on rogue weapon talent not granting its bonus when holding a dagger/shuriken in the offhand and applying the bonus to the main hand for the attack.

Jan 18, 2012 -- 10:08AM, onecrazymojo wrote:

The reason multiple foci do not stack is because you have to attack through them to get their benefit, and you can only attack through one at a time. Weilding, in the context of benefits to an attack has been pretty clearly delineated to mean "using the weapon to attack with." An example of this definition is the ruling on rogue weapon talent not granting its bonus when holding a dagger/shuriken in the offhand and applying the bonus to the main hand for the attack.

This is why, if you'll note, I have only one Ki Focus. And wielding does not, quite clearly, mean "being used to attack," as the term "wielding a shield" is used not infrequently.

Weilding is contextually defined. Note, I said "in the context of benefits to an attack." Other contextual definitions, when not part of an attack (such as for constant properties), means more or less "holding and ready for use." There have been many, /many/ discussions on it recently, and this has been the near unanimous result everytime.

I did not notice your actual gear layout. If you only have one, what exactly is going on that is at issue? Sorry if its obvious and I've just missed it.

Jan 18, 2012 -- 1:01PM, onecrazymojo wrote:

I did not notice your actual gear layout. If you only have one, what exactly is going on that is at issue? Sorry if its obvious and I've just missed it.

The issue was whether or not Ki Weapons stack, not Ki Foci. Easy mistake. Each would add +2 damage to flurries.

EDIT: The original version of this build was nerfed to total irrelevance by the errata to Dancing Weapon rarity (good call by WoTC...). Here's the original post:
Original Post Show
Here's the new, working version:
Level 30 Build Show
Start the battle at nonpositive HP.

First round: use OoE and Martial Supremacy. Charge with Virtuous Strike, then AP and use VS again.
Subsequent rounds: shift away with Sandals of Avandra. Charge with Virtuous Strike.

In every case, a hit on the charge knocks prone (through Brutal Axe) and triggers another VS via KAM. All crits give another VS via Rending. Every VS is augmented with Power Strike.

Can AP every encounter due to Symbol of Victory and Violet Solitaire.

Calculations Show
Mean KPR: 1.958

Tags:
RM, noD, 1/2Elf, KAM 

Jan 19, 2012 -- 2:07AM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

A enhancement of my earlier build, adding in dancing weapons+revenant shenanigans, ala mellored's SeptBlade build.

From where are you getting seven minor actions with which to sustain your Dancing Khopeshes (khopeshi)?

Jan 19, 2012 -- 12:57PM, Illeist wrote:

Jan 19, 2012 -- 2:07AM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

A enhancement of my earlier build, adding in dancing weapons+revenant shenanigans, ala mellored's SeptBlade build.

From where are you getting seven minor actions with which to sustain your Dancing Khopeshes (khopeshi)?

7? I'm only using 5 of them?

The extra actions come from Revenant + Death's Quickening + Ghostly Vitality (it's a pretty well-established combination). That's 2 extra minors and 1 extra move, in addition to the move and minor you already get, making 5 minor actions for sustaining.

It's probably waaaaay against RAI to use the feats that way, but it works by RAW (and if you don't like it, just use Variant 2 instead).

Jan 19, 2012 -- 1:11PM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

Jan 19, 2012 -- 12:57PM, Illeist wrote:

Jan 19, 2012 -- 2:07AM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

A enhancement of my earlier build, adding in dancing weapons+revenant shenanigans, ala mellored's SeptBlade build.

From where are you getting seven minor actions with which to sustain your Dancing Khopeshes (khopeshi)?

7? I'm only using 5 of them?

The extra actions come from Revenant + Death's Quickening + Ghostly Vitality (it's a pretty well-established combination). That's 2 extra minors and 1 extra move, in addition to the move and minor you already get, making 5 minor actions for sustaining.

It's probably waaaaay against RAI to use the feats that way, but it works by RAW (and if you don't like it, just use Variant 2 instead).

Gotcha. Imaginative build, then! Looks great!

Jan 19, 2012 -- 1:13PM, Illeist wrote:

Gotcha. Imaginative build, then! Looks great!

Thanks! I'm working on another, more unique one now (current dpr just over 500, trying to see if I can add more)...hopefully it'll be done within a couple days

I'm going to need to add a Revenant key element.

How are you using dancing weapons for every encounter.  You need to be able to do 7 encounters in epic.  At least that's the way we did it with pearl of power/ salve of power(?).
If this is only for 1 encounter, then it's as good as a nova.  If you want to purchase 7 of them you can count one for each encounter, but then you're not utilizing all those lovely minor actions.

Jan 19, 2012 -- 4:27PM, borg285 wrote:

I'm going to need to add a Revenant key element.

How are you using dancing weapons for every encounter.  You need to be able to do 7 encounters in epic.  At least that's the way we did it with pearl of power/ salve of power(?).
If this is only for 1 encounter, then it's as good as a nova.  If you want to purchase 7 of them you can count one for each encounter, but then you're not utilizing all those lovely minor actions.

7 encounters? I thought only 5 (I asked about that earlier and you never contradicted me).

I was going based off of what was in mellored's SeptBlade build, where he had 5 encounters worth of dancing weapons.

Anyway, if you look, I had purchased 25 of them, but I'm sufficiently under the money limit that I think I can buy 10 more if you insist (worst case scenario I'd just switch to +5 armor).

But just to clear things up: 5 encounters/day, or 7?

Is it say's your a half elf.  Not revevant.

Jan 19, 2012 -- 6:00PM, mellored wrote:

Is it say's your a half elf. Not revevant.

Haha, oops. I copied the text from my previous build and changed the relevant pieces (but forgot to change the race).

Fixed.

yeah, 5 is fine.

Okay, this build's tricks are a bit different than most others I have seen. It does still use a revenant avenger + dancing weapons chassis (because those things add to most everything)...but otherwise it's more unique.

Level 30 Build Show
In the first round of each encounter, move to a target, apply Oath of Enmity, and attack with Ancient Forebears' Rage.
In the next round, apply a Frozen Whetstone, attack with Challenge of Blades and Fury's Advance.
Next round, attack with Soulforge Hammering.
Finally, we are only left with Hurricane of Blades. Use it every single round (with Power Attack), and if you hit with the first 3 attacks then make attack 4 with a kick (an improvised unarmed attack) to deliberately miss. HoB is never expended (see the Notes at bottom).

Whenever you finally drop down to 0 or less HP, activate 5 dancing falchions.
Using AFR every encounter Show
Calculations were all done in Excel, so I'll just give general formulas I used.
Attack Show Damage Show
DPR = 763.0738


Level 16 Build Show Same logic as the level 30 build, but no AFR, and using Storm of Blades instead of HoB. Otherwise, similar logic, so I won't type out the calculations.

DPR = 95.77109


Simplifications:
1) Ignored the fact that, on an accidental 4th hit with HoB (or 3rd with SoB), you deal some damage
2) Assumed one of the HoB attacks hit for purposes of maintaining frostcheese (chance of >0 hits is over 99.99%; this assumption was not made in the L16 build's calculations)
3) Treated Triumphant Attack as though it were always in play (chance of a crit is over 85% per turn)
4) Ignored the DPR change if you lose access to AFR or HoB/SoB (both extremely unlikely)
5) Only approximated RotRS instead of calculating it exactly
6) For the Level 16 build, assumed the enemy is a Solo (i.e. has a +5 bonus to saves against the Jagged Weapon's ongoing damage).

Notes Show
 
VARIANTS for the non-turophiles:

1) Remove the revenant stuff.
Changes Show DPR = 660.1878

2) Same as variant 1, but remove the dancing weapons altogether, because they're pretty cheesy on their own.

DPR = 560.3

I have a candidate for the Nova section

Also, I came up with a L30 build with 1330 dpr...but it doesn't really use any "new tricks," it's just a combo of my last couple builds (the Ardent Champion build + the daily recharging of Champion of Prophecy to get Stone Tempest Rage for 18-20 crits). I'm not sure if it's worth writing it up, unless there is a particular interest.

I thought there was a new rule that prevented a character from having more than one of the same magic item?  I can't recall the rule, but I thought it came with the item rarity rules.

Well, it's more that the game went from:
1) You can craft or purchase whatever you want, but can't use more than a couple daily item powers
to
2) You can't craft or purchase almost anything, but you can use as many daily item powers as you want

So you have to deal with one restriction or the other So, yeah, any dancing weapon build fails even casual theory op, nevermind practical. 

Jan 23, 2012 -- 11:13AM, Anihilation wrote:

I thought there was a new rule that prevented a character from having more than one of the same magic item?  I can't recall the rule, but I thought it came with the item rarity rules.

That's an official rule for LFR and a common house rule for any campaign using the rarity system, but it's never stated overtly as RAW. Generally, any GM who wants any degree of control over his or her players will use one of the two item limitations. So, as Mr. Richmond said, builds that rely on multiples of the same item (admittedly, my Monk build included) don't translate very well into a concrete setting. How well they work in theory op depends on the limitations of the theory; for DPR King, we currently have no limitations on multiple magic items.

Jan 23, 2012 -- 11:21AM, Keithric wrote:

Well, it's more that the game went from:
1) You can craft or purchase whatever you want, but can't use more than a couple daily item powers
to
2) You can't craft or purchase almost anything, but you can use as many daily item powers as you want

So you have to deal with one restriction or the other So, yeah, any dancing weapon build fails even casual theory op, nevermind practical. 

Yeah, that's why I tend to include non-dancing variants (though couldn't you use dancing weapons of a variety of different types to get around this? like, a dancing longsword, a dancing greatsword, a dancing falchion, a dancing fullblade...).

But like Illeist said, DPR King has no such limitations.

Jan 23, 2012 -- 1:16PM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

Jan 23, 2012 -- 11:21AM, Keithric wrote:

Well, it's more that the game went from:
1) You can craft or purchase whatever you want, but can't use more than a couple daily item powers
to
2) You can't craft or purchase almost anything, but you can use as many daily item powers as you want

So you have to deal with one restriction or the other So, yeah, any dancing weapon build fails even casual theory op, nevermind practical. 

Yeah, that's why I tend to include non-dancing variants (though couldn't you use dancing weapons of a variety of different types to get around this? like, a dancing longsword, a dancing greatsword, a dancing falchion, a dancing fullblade...).

But like Illeist said, DPR King has no such limitations.

I know that's not legal by LFR's ruleset, but I'm not sure how a home game would run that.

I wanted to keep this thread general enough to handle 
1) Item rarity is respected and dancing weapons would quickly never be found in the loot
2) Ignore daily power restriction as well as the item rarity joke
by having a key to indicate that you are not LFR legal, which shows how much importance I place on item rarity in 4e.  If it was established from the beginning that would be different, with a different baseline and items created adhering to that metric.  The mass "we want to hit the reset button but can't think of a better way to handle it" really upset me.  As a result I felt that supporting both LFR and "Item rarity is too much work for the DM" was the best approach.

Ninja: I haven't had the chance to look over the core HoB refresh mechanic, but I do notice something else I wanted to comment on. I see you are spending....3 turns before getting into your quoted at-will DPR. Unless I am mistaken, at-will DPR doesn't get to assume any setup rounds. You need to be able to throw down on round 1. I recall some of the assumptions being you start like 5 squares away (or adjacent, I don't remember on that), no setup rounds, and no assumed help from friends (except maybe flanking, but you get a note if you do).

Jan 24, 2012 -- 10:00AM, onecrazymojo wrote:

Ninja: I haven't had the chance to look over the core HoB refresh mechanic, but I do notice something else I wanted to comment on. I see you are spending....3 turns before getting into your quoted at-will DPR. Unless I am mistaken, at-will DPR doesn't get to assume any setup rounds. You need to be able to throw down on round 1. I recall some of the assumptions being you start like 5 squares away (or adjacent, I don't remember on that), no setup rounds, and no assumed help from friends (except maybe flanking, but you get a note if you do).

Before now there has been no standard.  
You are granted 1 round for setup.  Assume you must retarget every round.  This means that unless your melee character can safely assume he's being fed foes, he cannot Oath and quarry every round because he must move to retarget and standard to attack.

The standard had been "assume you're beating on Tofu with infinite hit points for infinite rounds", with various exceptions for damage sequences that assume a response by the tofu.  (Riposte type things.  The target is generally assumed to take the action sequence that will minimize your DPR while still contributing to victory for team monster)

So setup rounds get averaged away from the infinite rounds that follow.

Of course, as your DPR passes over the 3-turn-striker level and heads for 2-turn-striker level, this abstraction becomes increasingly inaccurate and irrelevant.

I had forgotten about the frost-cheese builds (ie. most of them).  Perhaps we can safely assume you have 4 rounds to take him out before moving onto the next block and you have an infinite series of tofu^tm blocks that you have to churn through.  We need to maintain some semblance of reality.
What are the toughts on infinite series of 4 round bouts.  Spend your minor+move actions however you would like but melee characters must spend move actions to get to the next block unless they can easily get fed blocks.

Jan 24, 2012 -- 11:09AM, borg285 wrote:

I had forgotten about the frost-cheese builds (ie. most of them).  Perhaps we can safely assume you have 4 rounds to take him out before moving onto the next block and you have an infinite series of tofu^tm blocks that you have to churn through.  We need to maintain some semblance of reality.
What are the toughts on infinite series of 4 round bouts.  Spend your minor+move actions however you would like but melee characters must spend move actions to get to the next block unless they can easily get fed blocks.

We're assuming even-level defenses.... shouldn't we assume even level HP? I think your sig gives us the answer.

Jan 24, 2012 -- 11:15AM, Alcestis wrote:

Jan 24, 2012 -- 11:09AM, borg285 wrote:

I had forgotten about the frost-cheese builds (ie. most of them).  Perhaps we can safely assume you have 4 rounds to take him out before moving onto the next block and you have an infinite series of tofu^tm blocks that you have to churn through.  We need to maintain some semblance of reality.
What are the toughts on infinite series of 4 round bouts.  Spend your minor+move actions however you would like but melee characters must spend move actions to get to the next block unless they can easily get fed blocks.

We're assuming even-level defenses.... shouldn't we assume even level HP? I think your sig gives us the answer.

How about an elite's HP to split the difference.

Deal X damage, then you need to retarget.

And yes that "hurts" frostcheeze, but it's been overrated.

And to be honest, if your going to change the base assumptions, you might want to start a new thread, as basicly every build will need to be reworked, or at least recalculated.

I've wanted to have a way for an encounter based approach could compete with the at-willers.  We've always assummed infinite rounds, which isn't always the case in practice.  If it were you probably wouldn't have time to submite a build here.

The at-will builds can simply calculate what they would do to every foe they encounter and be proud of the fact that they can keep going till the DM stops.  The Encounter builds will walk through facing 3-4 foes and then median their damage over those 4 rounds.  Nova builds would fall through because we're using median instead of average.

Thoughts? 

How about...

How many turns does it take for you to kill...

1 solo
2 elites + 4 minions.
2 elites + 1 regular.
5 regulars.
20 minons.  (spaced in a checkerboard manner).

With short rest in between.
No need to adjust for blasters either.


Of course, it also makes calculations far more time consuming.

Jan 24, 2012 -- 10:00AM, onecrazymojo wrote:

Ninja: I haven't had the chance to look over the core HoB refresh mechanic, but I do notice something else I wanted to comment on. I see you are spending....3 turns before getting into your quoted at-will DPR. Unless I am mistaken, at-will DPR doesn't get to assume any setup rounds. You need to be able to throw down on round 1. I recall some of the assumptions being you start like 5 squares away (or adjacent, I don't remember on that), no setup rounds, and no assumed help from friends (except maybe flanking, but you get a note if you do).

Well, if we're talking infinite rounds, then however many setup turns you take, it doesn't really matter in the end when it gets averaged out. I assumed about 100 rounds per encounter, just because.

Jan 24, 2012 -- 11:09AM, borg285 wrote:

I had forgotten about the frost-cheese builds (ie. most of them).  Perhaps we can safely assume you have 4 rounds to take him out before moving onto the next block and you have an infinite series of tofu^tm blocks that you have to churn through.  We need to maintain some semblance of reality.
What are the toughts on infinite series of 4 round bouts.  Spend your minor+move actions however you would like but melee characters must spend move actions to get to the next block unless they can easily get fed blocks.

I don't like the "infinite series" of blocks, just because technically all you need at that point is a Great Hunger weapon and you have infinite dpr. Also, it rules out using things like huge stockpiles of ammunition, or a build like my HoB/AFR one that can maintain dpr for hundreds of rounds but not "infinitely."

I'd prefer something like "100 round dpr" or the like, and against multiple enemies is fine. Is charging an acceptable way to get from one enemy to the next when that is necessary?

Jan 24, 2012 -- 11:50AM, mellored wrote:

And to be honest, if your going to change the base assumptions, you might want to start a new thread, as basicly every build will need to be reworked, or at least recalculated.

I agree with this.

Also, in terms of using elite monster HP...I like it in theory, but it seems like it'd make calculations pretty tricky. Especially because now you have to know the variance of your damage; let's say you have two builds that both deal, on average, 1.5x monster hp, and neither one can retarget mid-round.

One of them always deals around that much damage.

The other one sometimes get as low as 1x monster hp, and then as high as 2x monster hp.

The second build will have higher dpr because it sometimes gets a one-shot. Calculating this is really complicated though.

Even though it's less accurate, I prefer something like the 4-round approach. 

Jan 24, 2012 -- 12:03PM, mellored wrote:

How about...

How many turns does it take for you to kill...

1 solo
2 elites + 4 minions.
2 elites + 1 regular.
5 regulars.
20 minons.  (spaced in a checkerboard manner).

With short rest in between.
No need to adjust for blasters either.


Of course, it also makes calculations far more time consuming.

I'd like to avoid the "for the labs" approach for every candidate.  
I want facilitate the "My at-will damage is 3*.95(4.5+50) = 300 DPR, Here is my breakdown for damage"
I also want to include "But I would use encounter powers as they are strictly stronger than my at-will and combat is usually over by the time I need to use my at-wills"
The 4 round median is a good representation.  The at-willer can simply say my at-will = median.  The encounter guy can offset his at-will with his good encounter power selection. 

If I were to make a new thread (DPR king candidates 3.0) I will surely allocate 4-5 posts for myself instead of the 1 I did with this one. 

I also want to either require candidates to convert their DPR to the number of rounds to kill an equal level monster like in my sig.  This way you could look at level 6 candidates and be impressed at the 2-round candidate, and be equally impressed by the 2-round striker in level 16.  Currently I see 50 DPR and I need to do a conversion to rounds for me to judge how good the DPR is.

Or I'll do the conversion myself. 

I like pure-at-will DPR as a tool better than encounter DPR because it's "more stable" against the DM's response to optimized PCs.

A PC with at-will DPR of 30, but "real DPR" (my personal term for 4-round encounter DPR) of 200 is in a world of trouble when the 2nd wave of monsters appears, but the DM may not be aware of the issue.  A PC with at-will DPR of 90 and real DPR of 120 is in a much more comfortable place, and much less likely to get accidentially splattered.

So how about aiming at 8-10 rounds?  That's enough that nova-bursts can get averaged down, but infinite-length-DPR stunts can't really take over yet?  The main problem is just going to be difficulty to calculate.

Jan 24, 2012 -- 12:19PM, borg285 wrote:

I also want to either require candidates to convert their DPR to the number of rounds to kill an equal level monster like in my sig.  This way you could look at level 6 candidates and be impressed at the 2-round candidate, and be equally impressed by the 2-round striker in level 16.  Currently I see 50 DPR and I need to do a conversion to rounds for me to judge how good the DPR is.

Or I'll do the conversion myself. 

 Agreed.

Normalized for the level is a good thing.



Oh, how about action points or dailies in a 4 round battle(s)?  Or do we draw the "it's to complicated" line at flat encounter.

Jan 24, 2012 -- 12:23PM, mellored wrote:

Jan 24, 2012 -- 12:19PM, borg285 wrote:

I also want to either require candidates to convert their DPR to the number of rounds to kill an equal level monster like in my sig.  This way you could look at level 6 candidates and be impressed at the 2-round candidate, and be equally impressed by the 2-round striker in level 16.  Currently I see 50 DPR and I need to do a conversion to rounds for me to judge how good the DPR is.

Or I'll do the conversion myself. 

 Agreed.

Normalized for the level is a good thing.



Oh, how about action points or dailies in a 4 round battle(s)?  Or do we draw the "it's to complicated" line at flat encounter.

Daily powers are too situational.  Some daily powers affect the DPR for the rest of the encounter, other simply push the median a little closer to itself.  No daily powers.  Essential builds couldn't complete.
Action point is for the nova candidates. 

I like the 10 round if for no other reason because its a nice, round metric (see what I did there?). I don't think going below 5 is a good idea, since at that point you are more or less in the encounter nova territory (especially when we are already granting a round of setup followed by a round of boom). Perhaps I'm wrong, but I always felt the who point of the at-will DPR wasn't to measure what a build could expect to average on any given encounter, but what they can expect to do at a bare minimum, all other resources expended.

How about if/when I create a new thread and if I want to support encounter power based candidates that I take a poll for the number of rounds to set the threshold.  Too low and I favor encounter power candidates and trivial encounter length, too many(10) and I favor at-willers and boss fights.  This poll will be in the form of

• How many rounds does a typical encounter last?  
• How many rounds does your typical boss fight last?  
• How many rounds would you calculate average overall DPR on?

That way we can get a feel for the minimum (typical), maximum(boss), and preferred (how many rounds would you).
I will then follow the steps of senators ignore it all and base it on my last game.

Jan 24, 2012 -- 2:24PM, onecrazymojo wrote:

I like the 10 round if for no other reason because its a nice, round metric (see what I did there?). I don't think going below 5 is a good idea, since at that point you are more or less in the encounter nova territory (especially when we are already granting a round of setup followed by a round of boom). Perhaps I'm wrong, but I always felt the who point of the at-will DPR wasn't to measure what a build could expect to average on any given encounter, but what they can expect to do at a bare minimum, all other resources expended.

I think the point was to include (encounter) nova damage, and avoid setup rounds.  To get a more "realistic" comparison.

So 4 rounds (no setup) to deal as much damage as you can.  No dailies, no AP's.
Normalized to rounds per kill.

Total / 4 / (8*lvl+24).
err, that can be simplified.
Total / (32*lvl + 96)

Heh, you should name the new thread TPK (turns per kill) kings. 

Jan 24, 2012 -- 3:01PM, mellored wrote:

Jan 24, 2012 -- 2:24PM, onecrazymojo wrote:

I like the 10 round if for no other reason because its a nice, round metric (see what I did there?). I don't think going below 5 is a good idea, since at that point you are more or less in the encounter nova territory (especially when we are already granting a round of setup followed by a round of boom). Perhaps I'm wrong, but I always felt the who point of the at-will DPR wasn't to measure what a build could expect to average on any given encounter, but what they can expect to do at a bare minimum, all other resources expended.

I think the point was to include (encounter) nova damage, and avoid setup rounds.  To get a more "realistic" comparison.

So 4 rounds (no setup) to deal as much damage as you can.  No dailies, no AP's.
Normalized to rounds per kill.

Total / 4 / (8*lvl+24).
err, that can be simplified.
Total / (32*lvl + 96)

Total would allow nova people to be comparable to at-willers.  Something that I think would result in alot of hatred.
Encounter candidates
(8*lvl+24) / Median damage of N rounds.  
At-willers it's just  
(8*lvl+24) / DPR 

Mello: if that is the plan, then ye. I agree. I was still working under the assumption of differentiating between nova dpr and at-will.

Borg: Funny. If I can through out an early vote, I would suggest the following. Instead of the current at-will/nova distinction, require king builds to submit to metrics: their encounter nova (maybe 2-4 rounds), followed by a pure at-will dpr that would come after the nova and last infinity turns. This would give several benefits. 1) Direct comparison of how quick builds can go boom or sustain their power in a grind. 2) Allows for a psuedo-setup for both nova andat-will (since the at-will still benefits from everything that occured during nova). 3) Clearly highlights if a build has weakspots (can't pop a bad right-here-right-now when necessary / can't do anything after gibbing one or two). 4) Would most accurately model how the build would perform at a real table (assuming a slightly unreal generic encounter).

It would add a little extra effort on the part of submitters, but not terribly much. Plus, it will greatly open up the optimization space, so I feel the people who do participate in these shenanigans already will hardly even notice.

You could even include the normalized number of standards killed after x rounds. So say we get 4 nova turns to burn encounters, then 6 rounds of at-will, we then also include over that 10 round period how many mobs we can expect to drop (or any other number of rounds. I feel the at-will should be about half-again as long as the burst, but that's my preference. So like 2/3, or 4/6. I'm sure others might want a 50/50 split.)

Jan 24, 2012 -- 3:06PM, borg285 wrote:

Total would allow nova people to be comparable to at-willers.  Something that I think would result in alot of hatred.

Why would you think that?  It seems like a good thing to me...

Not that i'm telling you what to do with your awsome thread or anything.  

Jan 24, 2012 -- 3:43PM, mellored wrote:

Jan 24, 2012 -- 3:06PM, borg285 wrote:

Total would allow nova people to be comparable to at-willers.  Something that I think would result in alot of hatred.

Why would you think that?  It seems like a good thing to me...

Not that i'm telling you what to do with your awsome thread or anything.  

Using total / 4 means you're calculating an average, and average is biased to outliers (nova).
Median would force nova people to be in a seperate category all themselves.

I feel that nova and sustained DPR are very different representations of a striker's capability to do his job.  Throwing them into the same basket is like comparing apples to oranges.  Using LDB's encounter nova sequence to increase his total, and thus average, DPR does not represent well how this build would do against a block of tofu.  While it's true that X damage dealt in round 1 accounts to the total damage dealt as much as the Y damage dealt in round N, but X damage in round 1 is much more important than the Y damage in round N.  Nova is very important in ending encounters, but should not be mixed with sustained DPR.  Median is the happy middle ground to allow encounter power based candidates to compete with at-will people.

I personally like both Mello and Mojo's thoughts...

I don't think there should be such a distinction between a nova build and an at will build - after the nova, the build needs to be able to put out enough at will to be playable, and likewise, a build with decent at will (but which can't compete with a nova build over 4 or 5 rounds) is nowhere near as good at the table as one is led to believe.

If a build can at-wil 80 DPR, and has zero nova capability (so 80 DPR is it, forever), and you compare it to a build with 500/4 round nova damage, and then 60DPR at will afterwards... well in any real world table the nova build is superior.

Also, if it is to be truly at-will, I don't think any setup rounds should be allowed. If it requires set-up, it really isn't "at-will" because you simply cannot do it without said setup (which could be prevented for any number of reasons) and is thus situational.

4 rounds may be a bit light; but then again maybe not - I think 5 or 6 is closer to a real world average in my experience over the past 4 or 5 years...but 4 is common enough that those 5, 6, 8, and even up to 10 round combats which raise the average up from 4 are rare enough that they aren't nearly as important/significant to a real world table.

So, have the 4 round AVG damage, and the 10 round AVG damage, as well as 'At Will' or 'infinite' damage after that. Using the random numbers I used above, the 80/rnd build with no nova potential would be 320 (80/rnd) | 800 (80/rnd)| 80/rnd, while the nova build would be 500 (125/rnd) | 860 (86/rnd) | 60/rnd. And no, those numbers aren't based on any actual builds, just random numbers I pulled out of a random orifice.

It would be much more useful to the casual Op'er who is looking for a build to play.

So I have been sitting on a level 16 build. I continued the riposte style of my previous builds, but switched it up with some White Lotus variety. I also might've stole some goods ideas from the previous king of 12 and 16, the Archer (Painful Oath & Pelor's Sun Blessing are just insane). I really haven't had the chance to sit down and write it all up, but after today's talk of possibly switching everything up, I thought I really ought to post the build before the format doesn't matter anymore. The build successfully utilizes crit-fishing, multi-attacks, and frost/radiant cheese. All I am missing is a little bit of charge-cheese and maybe some revenant/dancing weapons to hit absolutely every damage boosting trick there is. But those will have to wait till the 24 and 30 variants to squeeze those in.

Lvl 16 Half-Elf Avenger Morninglord 24 Wis 18 Dex
Dilettante- Eldritch Strike, Censure- Pursuit
Feats- Adept Dilettante, Cunning Stalker, Mark of Finding, Two-Weapon Fighting, White Lotus Riposte, Versatile Master, Painful Oath, Two-Weapon Opening, Lasting Frost
Items- Pelor's Sun Blessing, Bracer's of Mighty Striking (paragon), Ring of Giants, Gloves of Ice, Melegaunt's Darkblade Greatsword +4 with Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon), Radiant Gauntlet Axe +3 with Shard of Radiance (paragon), Frozen Whetstones (heroic)

Some assumptions:
-Your target is only adjacent to you and you have them oathed.
-At 100g a pop and a minor action, you can afford to apply a Frozen Whetstone to the greatsword every combat at the start. I like being able to throw up this damage from the start, so no whetstone on the gauntlet axe, though. If you wanted to assume you added it on a later round, it would add 2.642 DPR.
-Assuming frost vulnerability from the start is the norm here, so I went ahead and did the same. If you miss your target or attack a new one, subtract 4.689 from the expected damage.
-Utilizing a bit of cheese with the guantlet axe; doesn't require proficiency (so I just lose the +2 prof bonus). Keeps hands free to hold/use other things. While I do not get the bonus damage from TWF (since TWF specifies a weapon in each hand), it qualifies for TWOpening, which only specifies mainhand/offhand weapons. So when I crit with greatsword, I let go of it with my OH as a free action and make my OH attack with the axe, followed by using another free action to regrab the greatsword. This isn't absolutely necessary for the build, it just so happens to be the most elegant at tying several elements together with the limited resources available at 16 that I am trying to cram in. If there is a qualm with the build, I anticipate it being here.
-For WLR, I have made a couple of assumptions. 1) It can stack from making multiple successful attacks against the enemy, each then applying an effect that deals x damage if the target tries to attack me. 2) That the auto damage from WLR (as a no action) will resolve after the immediate interrupt granted by WLMR, potentially adding 1 or 2 additional hits, each applying another iteration of WLR that will resolve after the interrupt. Honestly, this is a very small fraction of the DPR, so if a point of contention, it wont effect much. All it really does is make it an extremely bad choice for the enemy to choose to attack you, meaning the OA attack is the default option.

Two Weapon Opening Eldritch Strike
+20 Attack (8 Lvl, 7 Wis, 3 Enh, 2 CA) v AC 30 | Base Accuracy 55%
OoE Double Roll: Crit [1-(0.95*0.95)] = 9.75% | Hit [1-(0.45*0.45)-crit] =  70%
d8+34 (7 Wis, 3 Enh, 4 Itm, 7 Plr, 3 RS, 10 VlnR) [38.5] | 48+3d6 [58.5] Crit
0.7*38.5 + 0.0975*58.5 = 26.95 + 5.704 = 32.654

Eldritch Strike
+24 Attack (8 Lvl, 7 Wis, 4 Enh, 3 Prof, 2 CA) v AC 30 | Base Accuracy 75%
OoE Double Roll: Crit [1-(0.9*0.9)] = 19% | Hit [1-(0.25*0.25)-crit] =  74.75%
d10+51 (7 Wis, 4 Enh, 4 Itm, 7 Plr, 7 PO, 10 VlnR, 2 FW, 2 GI, 3 SMC, 5 LF) [56.5] | 69+4d6 [83] Crit
0.7475*56.5 + 0.19*(83 + 32.654) = 42.234 + 21.974 = 64.208

OA / WLMR
0.9375*64.208 = 60.195

Preliminary DPR 124.403

Now we get into the bonus damage based on the monster's choice of taking the WLMR and however many WLR procs, or, trying to escape and triggering the bonus to damage from Censure of Pursuit being added into the OA and your expected damage on the following turn.

OA (+8 to all damage till end of your next turn)
We will calc by taking chance OA hits plus chance OA crits and OH hits. Since the OA/Main attack are the same, we will then double this to get the total added damage if the bad decides to draw the OA.
0.9375*8 + 0.19*0.7975*8 = 7.5 + 1.212 = 8.712*2 = 17.424

WLR (7 damage of the same type as attack when target attacks you)
Since the initial attack is both cold and radiant, we get to tack on 15 damage from the vulnerabilities, 10 from the OHs. And since we are doing damage to a target vuln to radiant, we also get to tack on another 7 from Pelor's boon to all of them. To calc, we will take damage for that iteration times the chance the first hit, plus chance WLMR hit, plus chance that either drew a crit, plus chance both drew a crit.
0.9375*29 + (0.7974*0.9375)*29 + (0.19 + 0.7475*.19)*29 + (0.19*0.19)*29 = 27.188 + 21.679 + 9.629 + 1.047 = 59.543

Final Expected DPR
141.827 (draw OA) / 183.946 (attacks back)

If anyone sees any mistakes or has any questions, please let me know. I do not doubt the likelihood I goofed somewhere on some math, since there was a ton of it that was a bit complicated. But assuming it wasn't a massive, gross error....I am pleased with the new king.

Just out of curiousity, in the current DPR King rules, are items like Pelor's Sun Blessing allowed? I was purposefully avoiding it, but I guess there was no reason to think I had to.


In terms of the 4-round median...consider this nova:
round 1: pure setup
round 2: activate a "until EoNT" power (like OoE via Disciple of Divine Wrath), do tons of damage
round 3: do tons of damage
round 4: do normal at-will damage

I think a 2-round-long nova of this kind is actually pretty common, and it'll affect the median by a bit (and you can get away with having that setup round because it doesn't affect the median at all).

Maybe you actually want this to be the case, because you want to let novas have an effect...I'm just pointing out the possibility. I would recommend a slightly higher number of rounds (even just 5 would do) to avoid these types of issues. Otherwise, MC avenger is half as good as actually being an avenger for most characters.

In general, I get the idea behind using the median, but I think "median of 4 rounds" will just make people optimize toward the median (e.g. with setup rounds so that the damage is "created" on one turn and then dealt later, or by moving a power to a different turn so the median goes up even though you're dealing exactly the same amount of damage) and you'll again end up with candidates that don't represent normal play. You're forgetting the type of people who are going to be making these builds

The average is, I think, a more accurate representation of what you can do. Maybe a 6-10 round average. Fewer rounds are more representative of typical combat, more rounds show how reliable your damage is.

...Though I don't feel like 6 rounds, whether average or median, can really be called "dpr" anymore. But "Damage Kings" is an interesting optimization problem of its own.

With a few hundred, possibly even a couple of thousand, hours of game time these past few years, fairly equally divided between DM and player, and slightly biased towards home play vs. LFR play, but also fairly even... I'd say in my experience 4 rounds is an accurate assumption of encounter longevity. Even at a table of non-optimized characters, who weren't used to adventuring with one anoher, 3-4 rounds is the most common duration I have seen. The ocassional 2-round, 5-round, and the rare 6-10 round encounters exist, but are not what I would consider 'normal'.

That's just based on my experience, though - but since I wasn't the one who initiated the idea of a 4-round encounter, obviously others feel it is normal as well.

Jan 24, 2012 -- 10:48PM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

Just out of curiousity, in the current DPR King rules, are items like Pelor's Sun Blessing allowed?

Sure.  Plenty of builds use it.

Jan 25, 2012 -- 12:56AM, Hephalumph wrote:

With a few hundred, possibly even a couple of thousand, hours of game time these past few years, fairly equally divided between DM and player, and slightly biased towards home play vs. LFR play, but also fairly even... I'd say in my experience 4 rounds is an accurate assumption of encounter longevity. Even at a table of non-optimized characters, who weren't used to adventuring with one anoher, 3-4 rounds is the most common duration I have seen. The ocassional 2-round, 5-round, and the rare 6-10 round encounters exist, but are not what I would consider 'normal'.

That's just based on my experience, though - but since I wasn't the one who initiated the idea of a 4-round encounter, obviously others feel it is normal as well.

We're talking about highly optimized strikers here.

If anything 4 is high.

Link to DPR king candidates 3.0.  I will be performing necro on this thread once in a blue moon so it doesn't go the way of all archives.
Once I can twist the arm of a WotC web developer to let me edit my first post, I will update it and also have a link to the new thread.

I feel that it will be sufficently different from this thread ("N round striker" instead of DPR, allow encounter powers, simplify the key, which few people used anyways) that both will be read, but one will be updated.

Rest assured that however much work it will take on my part, I will port over every legal candidate for you.  I may or may not be checking the cheese elements you used.

Some level 1 candidates with low DPR were lost in my last post edit and I probably will be unable to recover them.  If you know I lost your candidate, my apologies.  Your DPR sucked anyways.

Jan 25, 2012 -- 10:04AM, borg285 wrote:

Rest assured that however much work it will take on my part, I will port over every legal candidate for you.  I may or may not be checking the cheese elements you used.

Some level 1 candidates with low DPR were lost in my last post edit and I probably will be unable to recover them.  If you know I lost your candidate, my apologies.  Your DPR sucked anyways.

Google cache?

Jan 25, 2012 -- 10:06AM, mellored wrote:

Jan 25, 2012 -- 10:04AM, borg285 wrote:

Rest assured that however much work it will take on my part, I will port over every legal candidate for you.  I may or may not be checking the cheese elements you used.

Some level 1 candidates with low DPR were lost in my last post edit and I probably will be unable to recover them.  If you know I lost your candidate, my apologies.  Your DPR sucked anyways.

Google cache?

By the time I caught it the cache was updated and useless or non-extistant, can't remember.

In case you missed it, we are moving to DPR King Candidates 3.0 .  You have 2 weeks to vote on how it's organized.  If you don't vote then forever hold your peace.  I'm completely open to suggestions.

Oct 22, 2011 -- 3:48AM, Talamare wrote:

Oct 22, 2011 -- 3:03AM, Talamare wrote:

Scout - I technically made this for level 5 but there shouldnt be much changes going into 6 if anyone wants to make the changes (or optimize it more)

Appearently I cant sleep so... Heres a level 6 version

L6 Human Scout 20 Dex
Feats - Nimble Blade, Spiked Chain, TWF, LBE, Mounts
Items - Vanguard Spiked Chain +1, Horned Helm, Braces of Mighty Strikes, Boar
Powers - Pack Wolf

CA + Charge Version - Assumes you charge into flanking position with another ally
MBA - 18 Attack - (5 Dex, 3 Level, 3 Prof, 1 Enc, 1 Feat, 2 CA, 1 Nimble, 1 Charge, 1 Pack Wolf) 18 vs 20 = 95% Accuracy
Damage - 2d4+1d8+1d6+12 (5 Dex, 2 Bracers, 1 TWF, 1 Enc, 1 LBE, 2 Pack Wolf) 16-34 [25]

0.9 * 25 = 22.5 |+| 38.5 * 0.05 = 1.925 || == 24.42

DWA - 17 Attack - (5 Dex, 3 Level, 3 Prof, 1 Enc, 1 Feat, 2 CA, 1 Nimble, 1 Pack Wolf) = 90% Accuracy
Damage - 2d4+10 (5 Dex, 1 TWF, 1 Enc, 1 LBE, 2 Pack Wolf) 12-18 [15] || 19-24 Crit [21.5]

15 * 0.85 = 12.75 |+| 21.5 * 0.05 = 1.075 || == 13.825 * 0.95 = 13.13

24.42 + 13.13 + 8.2 = 45.75 DPR










L6 Human Scout 20 Dex -- Quick Hit Bracers instead of Mighty Strikes
Feats - Nimble Blade, Spiked Chain, TWF, LBE, Mounts
Items - Vanguard Spiked Chain +1, Horned Helm, Quick Hit, Boar
Powers - Pack Wolf

CA + Charge Version - Assumes you charge into flanking position with another ally
MBA - 18 Attack - (5 Dex, 3 Level, 3 Prof, 1 Enc, 1 Feat, 2 CA, 1 Nimble, 1 Charge, 1 Pack Wolf) 18 vs 20 = 95% Accuracy
Damage - 2d4+1d8+1d6+10 (5 Dex, 1 TWF, 1 Enc, 1 LBE, 2 Pack Wolf) 14-32 [23] || 33-40 Crit [36.5]

0.9 * 23 = 20.7 |+| 36.5 * 0.05 = 1.825 || == 22.52

DWA - 17 Attack - (5 Dex, 3 Level, 3 Prof, 1 Enc, 1 Feat, 2 CA, 1 Nimble, 1 Pack Wolf) = 90% Accuracy
Damage - 2d4+1d6+10 (5 Dex, 1 TWF, 1 Enc, 1 LBE, 2 Pack Wolf) 13-24 [18.5] || 25-32 Crit [28.5]

18.5 * 0.85 = 15.725 |+| 28.5 * 0.05 = 1.425 || == 17.1 * 0.95 = 17.15

22.52 + 17.15 + 8.2 = 47.87 DPR

Not sure if this was asked already but why LBE and Nimble Blade? From what I can tell the Spiked Chain is a flail not LB. Sorry if this was already answered.

Spiked Chain multiclass feat makes it a doubel weapon light blade.

Gotcha so need to use that feat not the Weapon Prof feat?

Jan 24, 2012 -- 9:31PM, onecrazymojo wrote:

Final Expected DPR
141.827 (draw OA) / 183.946 (attacks back)

If anyone sees any mistakes or has any questions, please let me know. I do not doubt the likelihood I goofed somewhere on some math, since there was a ton of it that was a bit complicated. But assuming it wasn't a massive, gross error....I am pleased with the new king.

How are you expecting to draw an OA?  The monster wouldn't be marked and could attack an ally without drawing an OA.

Feb 7, 2012 -- 10:00AM, Anihilation wrote:

Jan 24, 2012 -- 9:31PM, onecrazymojo wrote:

Final Expected DPR
141.827 (draw OA) / 183.946 (attacks back)

If anyone sees any mistakes or has any questions, please let me know. I do not doubt the likelihood I goofed somewhere on some math, since there was a ton of it that was a bit complicated. But assuming it wasn't a massive, gross error....I am pleased with the new king.

How are you expecting to draw an OA?  The monster wouldn't be marked and could attack an ally without drawing an OA.

All of my riposte style builds assume a lone target. This allows them to self-generate CA with Cunning Stalker. Combined with Mark of Finding, the bad cannot get away from the player without drawing an OA (short of a teleport). This means the bad's options are:
-Attack player > Draw WLMR
-Attack another player with ranged > Draw OA
-Move/charge away > Draw OA
-Shift > Player follows as a free action shift, monsters new choice limited to those above

Is that an accepted assumption?  I understand assuming a lone target for the oath feature, but assuming no ally is within a shift move of the enemy seems a bit of a stretch for me.  If CharOp is cool with it, great build!

I personally am comfortable with it only if you have an ability to slide the monster 1.  If so, semi-sane allies can keep the assumption true.

There are plenty of small corner cases where you cannot ensure the second attack. Alternate movement modes combined with shift (cant follow if they go straight up), teleporting, stupid teammates who dont realize you are nearly twice as powerful left completely alone with the bad, or even simple daze or immobilize are all examples of not entirely uncommon events that will knock your kpr. Killing your target, technically, is just as bad for pure numbers game (since you wont get the second attack). In general though, we assume the blocks of tofu only have basic actions, live in featureless fields that they graze in, and your allies are all on holiday.

We do assume that blocks of Tofu are not skirmishers (who almost all have "shift N" powers and are immune to slow).  Or soldiers (who have higher defenses).  Or have action points, etc.  Just straight bland tofu.

IMHO, that's still no excuse for assuming a 1-1 battle on an infinite plane if you don't have to.  Or just use the "Solo" tag, since that's what it's there for.

You dont have to, but in practice, it makes no difference in trying to calculate dpr if they are neither helping or hindering. All we have to assume is that your allies arent close enough to shift to (whether cause they are 5 away or 78 away).

And for what it is worth, i believe they all have the solo tag on the dpr3 thread. 

Dec 31, 2011 -- 12:18AM, onecrazymojo wrote:

Got around to a lvl 12 version. Thief variant still beats out rogue version (by about 0.4 DPR).
Some assumptions:
-Your target is only adjacent to you.
-At 100g a pop and a minor action, you can afford to apply a Frozen Whetstone to the Bloodiron Dagger every combat at the start.
-Assuming frost vulnerability from the start is the norm here, so I went ahead and did the same. If you miss your target or attack a new one, subtract 4.75 from the expected damage. I should note that is a much more accurate real world value, since you will rarely need to attack the same monster more than once.
-I went ahead and rolled the bonus crit damage from Bloodiron into the base crit math (6d10 once instead of two iterations of 3d10). Same result, unless the bonus crit damage on the next turn still counts as having the cold keyword (since the original attack does). I don't believe it does, but if anyone knows otherwise I will adjust the math.
-The random +1.8 on the Riposte Strike crit math is from Acrobat's Trick (2*0.9).
-For clarity, the attack sequence is Riposte Strike (crit > Free MBA) [ hit > Riposte Interrupt/OA (crit > Free MBA)].

Lvl 12 Human Thief Daggermaster 22 Dex 18 Str
Feats- Cunning Stalker, Mark of Finding, Light Blade Exp, Nimble Blade, Backstabber, Silvery Glow, TW Fighting, TW Opening, Lasting Frost
Items- Bloodiron Dagger +3, Shard of Merciless Cold(Paragon), Frost Shortsword +2, Shard of Merciless Cold(Heroic), Gloves of Ice, Iron Armbands of Power(Heroic), Frozen Whetstones(Heroic)

Two Weapon Opening MBA
+23 Attack (6 Lvl, 6 Dex, 3 Prof, 2 Enh, 2 Feat, 2 CA, 1 NB, 1 WT) 90% Accuracy
d6+27 (6 Dex, 2 Enh, 3 Ft, 2 Itm, 3 WF, 2 LBE, 1 SMC, 2 GI, 1 TWF, 5 LF) 28-33 [30.5] | 35-45 [40] Crit
0.85*30.5 + 0.05*40 = 25.925 + 2 = 27.925

Riposte Strike
+24 Attack (6 Lvl, 6 Dex, 3 Prof, 3 Enh, 2 Feat, 2 CA, 1 NB, 1 WT) 95% Accuracy
d4+3d8+32 (6 Dex, 3 Enh, 3 Ft, 2 Itm, 3 WF, 2 LBE, 3 SMC, 2 GI, 2 FW, 1 TWF, 5 LF) 36-60 [48] | 66-120 [93] Crit
0.8*48 + 0.15*(93 + 27.925 + 1.8) = 38.4 + 18.409 = 56.809

Riposte Interrupt
+22 Attack (6 Lvl, 4 Str, 3 Prof, 3 Enh, 2 Feat, 2 CA, 1 NB, 1 WT) 85% Accuracy
d4+3d8+30 (4 Str, 3 Enh, 3 Ft, 2 Itm, 3 WF, 2 LBE, 3 SMC, 2 GI, 2 FW, 1 TWF, 5 LF) 34-58 [46] | 64-118 [91] Crit
0.7*46 + 0.15*(91 + 27.925) = 32.2 + 17.389 = 50.039*0.95 = 47.537

OA MBA
+24 Attack (6 Lvl, 6 Dex, 3 Prof, 3 Enh, 2 Feat, 2 CA, 1 NB, 1 WT) 95% Accuracy
d4+3d8+27 (6 Dex, 3 Enh, 3 Ft, 2 Itm, 3 WF, 2 LBE, 3 SMC, 2 GI, 2 FW, 1 TWF) 31-55 [43] | 61-115 [88] Crit
0.9*48 + 0.05*(93 + 27.925) = 43.2 + 6.046 = 49.246*0.95 = 46.784


DPR 103.593(OA) / 104.346(Riposte)

Edits: removed Pack Outcast, swapped out Vigilante Justice for Cunning Stalker. Normalized Lasting Frost on first attack.

Thief with Riposte Strike ??? How???    Riposte is a Scoundrel at-will, right???

Mar 4, 2012 -- 3:05AM, Banysan2 wrote:

Thief with Riposte Strike ??? How???    Riposte is a Scoundrel at-will, right???

Humans get an extra at-will from their class. A Thief is a special build of the Rogue class. So a Human Thief gets a Rogue at-will.

Mar 4, 2012 -- 3:09AM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

Mar 4, 2012 -- 3:05AM, Banysan2 wrote:

Thief with Riposte Strike ??? How???    Riposte is a Scoundrel at-will, right???

Humans get an extra at-will from their class. A Thief is a special build of the Rogue class. So a Human Thief gets a Rogue at-will.

nice! This will be fun! =)

thanks 

Sep 15, 2010 -- 2:57PM, RtrnofdMax wrote:

Frostbow of Sehanine

Continuing my need to make wonky builds, I created a fully functional Striker/Leader using the normal Twin Strike and Frost-Tech, but with Artificer and Cleric buffs built in. Through Hybridization, you get your two leader heals, some party supporting utilities and all the Twin Strike uber damage your DM can take.

(Disclaimer: This is a paragon build. This also requires a minor amount of setup.)

(Disclaimer 2: This build also assumes the new Half-Elf will be +2 Cha, and +2 to Wis or Con. The point buy will be messed up given that the Character builder does not yet have this data. If HElves end up being +2 Con and +2 to Wis or Cha, this build gets a small boost.)

Build Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 12
Half-Elf, Cleric|Artificer, Half-Elf Polymath
Hybrid Artificer: Hybrid Artificer Fortitude
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Bow)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Holy Symbol)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 17, Dex 11, Int 16, Wis 21, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 10.


AC: 23 Fort: 22 Reflex: 21 Will: 24
HP: 84 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +14, Religion +14, Perception +16, Insight +18, Dungeoneering +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +9, Endurance +9, Heal +11, History +9, Intimidate +7, Nature +11, Stealth +6, Streetwise +7, Thievery +6, Athletics +6

FEATS
Level 1: Moonbow Dedicate
Level 2: Adept Dilettante
Level 4: Silvery Glow
Level 6: Versatile Expertise
Level 8: Impending Victory
Level 10: Wintertouched
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Lasting Frost

POWERS
Dilettante: Twin Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Sacred Flame
Hybrid at-will 1: Magic Weapon
Hybrid encounter 1: Exacting Utterance
Hybrid daily 1: Icebound Sigil
Hybrid utility 2: Bless
Hybrid encounter 3: Shocking Feedback
Hybrid daily 5: Weapon of the Gods
Hybrid utility 6: Energy Conversion
Hybrid encounter 7: Price of Violence
Hybrid daily 9: Radiant Sigil
Hybrid utility 10: Sigil of Luck

ITEMS
Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Frost Shortbow +3, Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier), Bracers of Archery (heroic tier), Magic Leather Armor +2, Amulet of Protection +2, Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier) (3)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

The fun and unique part of this build comes from the three separate Daily weapon augments that add 3+ damage and some amount to hit. These calcs also assume you are using a Frozen Whetstone to add some more damage. You can drop these if you have other item dailies since you still get the frost keyword from your weapon. Standard setup is minor for a weapon augment and move->minor for the Frozen Whetstone. If you want to go nova, it will take two rounds for all three weapon augments and a whetstone.

Assumptions:
1) CA from Wintertouched is active.
2) At least one weapon augment and whetstone have been applied (see breakdown below).

DPR Calcs Show

	Attack Bonus		Damage
Weapon	3	Weapon	4.5
Level	6	Enh	3
Stat	5	Bracers	2
Expertise	1	Lasting Frost	5
Prof	2	Shard	3
CA	2	Gloves	2
		Moonbow	3
		Whetstone	2
	19		24.5

Base DPR	2*0.75*24.5+2*0.05*(28+10.5) = 40.6
vs. Bloodied	2*0.8*24.5+2*0.05*(28+10.5) = 42.85

Sigil of Luck gives +1 to hit and +3 Con damage:

w/ Sigil of Luck	2*0.8*(24.5+3)+2*0.05*(31+10.5) = 48.15
vs. Bloodied	2*0.85*(24.5+3)+2*0.05*(31+10.5) = 50.9

Weapon of the Gods gives 1d6 damage and imposes a -2 AC penalty. This effective +2 to hit is factored in:

w/ WotG	2*0.85*28+2*0.05*(34+10.5) = 52.05
vs. Bloodied	2*0.9*28+2*0.05*(34+10.5) = 54.85

Frostbound Sigil gives +3 damage:

w/ Icebound Sigil	2*0.75*(24.5+3)+2*0.05*(31+10.5) = 45.4
vs. Bloodied	2*0.8*(24.5+3)+2*0.05*(31+10.5) = 48.15

If you use all three weapon augments, you pull close to the lead for one encounter a day:

Fully Buffed	2*0.9*(24.5+3+3.5+3)+2*0.05*(40+10.5) = 66.25
vs. Bloodied	2*0.9*(24.5+3+3.5+3)+2*0.05*(40+10.5) = 66.25

Hope you like the build and feel free to offer suggestions on how to go even higher. I could probably get a +4 on Con based buffs if I give up on ever hitting with an Artificer power.

Have you pushed this build into EPIC yet?  I may use this build in a high level campaign a buddy of mine is starting.

It's funny because I only just started getting into DnD again and this is one of the last builds I posted before my hiatus. Memories.

Anyways, no I didn't ever get into epic, but I am sure with all of the new tomfoolery, the build can only improve from the version I posted. Perhaps someone who knows all of the possible current options could help update it.

Edit: Update below

Frostbow of Sehanine (lvl 24)

Continuing my need to make wonky builds, I created a fully functional Striker/Leader using the normal Twin Strike and Frost-Tech, but with Artificer and Cleric buffs built in. Through Hybridization, you get your two leader heals, some party supporting utilities and all the Twin Strike uber damage your DM can take.

(Disclaimer: This is a paragon build. This also requires a minor amount of setup.)

Build Show

The fun and unique part of this build comes from the three separate Daily weapon augments that add 3+ damage and some amount to hit. These calcs also assume you are using a Frozen Whetstone to add some more damage. You can drop these if you have other item dailies since you still get the frost keyword from your weapon. Standard setup is minor for a weapon augment and move->minor for the Frozen Whetstone. If you want to go nova, it will take two rounds for all three weapon augments and a whetstone.

Assumptions:
1) CA from Wintertouched is active.
2) At least one weapon augment and whetstone have been applied (see breakdown below).

DPR Calcs Show

So at 24, this build hits a bit of a wall. You can still pump awesome damage out for being a decent healer and buffer, but the biggest issue is the number of attacks. The DPR king builds are finding a way to make 3 or 4 attacks, where this build makes just the two. Make no mistake, this is still a lot of damage and you will miss very rarely, but I thought I would clarify why it's half the current DPR king value.

You can probably add some theoretical DPR given all of the immediate attacks, but that doesn't fit into these calculations or methodology.

lv: 6

Race: Pixie +2 CHA +2 DEX

Class: Thief

DEX 20

Feats:
Light Blade Expertise, Surprising Charge, Backstaber, Streak of light

Items:
L3 Vanguard Rapier +1, L6 Horned Helm, L2 Bracers of Mighty Striking, L2 Badge of the Berserker, L7 Marauders armor +2


Streak of Light = CA on charg

Badge of the Berserker = no Oportunity Attack on charg

Pixie = move in enemy scuares
 
fun to play

Charge whit Combat Advantage

Attack: +17 vs AC
Hit: 5d8 + 1d6 + 11

Breakdown:
Attack: 3 (lvl) + 5 (DEX) + 1 (Ench)  + 3 (prof) + 2 (combat  advantage) + 1 (charge) +1 (Light Blade Expertise) + 1 (Thief Weapon Talent)

Damage: 1d8(Raiper) + 1d8 (Surprising Charge) + 2d8(Backstab) +  1d8 (vanguard) +  1d6 (Hornd Helmet)
+ 5 (DEX) + 2 (Weapon Finesse) +  1 (Ench) + 2 (Bracers of Mighty Striking) + 1 (Light Blade Expertise)

17/20=0,85

Charge   0,85*37   = 31,45
Crit     0,05*61,5 = 3,075

31,45+3,075 = 34,525 DPR


is this corect?

do not know if it is valid maby one less d12

Hybrid Fighter/Ranger Charge maunt

lv: 6

Race: Bugbear +2 Str +2 Dex

Str  20, Dex 17, Wis 14

Feature: Hunters Quarry(Hybrid)

Feats:
Surprising  Charge, Mounted Combat,hybrid talent, Spear Expertise

Items:
Vanguard lance +1  (Book AV1), Horned Helm (Book PH1), Dire Boar  (Book AV1),
 Iron Armband of Power (Book AV1),

Charge whit   combat advantage

marauders ruch

Attack: +16 vs AC
Hit: 4d12 +  1d8 +  1d6 + 1d6 + 12     
Breakdown:
Attack: 3 (lvl) + 5   (Str) + 1  (Ench)  + 2 (prof) + 2 (combat  advantage) + 1  (charge) +1 (spear Expertise) + 1 (fighting combat talent)

Damage: 2d12  (Weapon) + 2d12 (Surprising Charge) + 1d8 (Vanguard) + 1d6 (Horned Helm) + 1d6 (Qarry) + 5 (Str) + 2 (Wis) +  1  (Ench)
+ 2 (Iron Armband of Power) + 1 (Versetile) + 1 (spear Expertise)

16/20=0,8

Charge   0,8*49,5 = 39,6
Crit on Charge 0,05*66,5 = 4,225
Boar on   charge make gore, +9 vs AC, 1d10 + 9, push 2 and  knock prone (= 8.2  DPR  (Ch)


39,6+4,225+8,2=52,025


is this corect?

I'll be pouring over the posts here during christmas break and adding them to the new DPR king candidates 3.0 thread.  It's got a slick way of allowing you to update your build w/o needing me much at all.  You'll find tons of new builds there, and a very nice way to compare builds: KPR (Kills per round).  See my sig.

Please direct future posts to the 3.0 thread. 

Sep 18, 2012 -- 10:04AM, RX-75 wrote:

Hybrid Fighter/Ranger Charge maunt

Damage: 2d12  (Weapon) + 2d12 (Surprising Charge) + 1d8 (Vanguard) + 1d6 (Horned Helm) + 1d6 (Qarry) + 5 (Str) + 2 (Wis) +  1  (Ench)
+ 2 (Iron Armband of Power) + 1 (Versetile) + 1 (spear Expertise)

is this corect?

I'm not sure this is correct...

several things...

Edit: redact this next paragraph, WOTC dictates 8,119 GP, which works...I was going off Lair assault..
first you are assuming you can have 3 level 6 items at that level. Going on Lair assault, that wont quite work...instead you should consider the items to be: vanguard spear +1 (level 3, thus purchaseable), iron armbands of power (heroic) (level 6), Dire Boar (level 7 item that is a level 6 instead), Hide armor of the charging wind +1 (level 5 item)...marauder hide armor might be better to use here.
 
Furthermore, how are you getting 4d12? The spear is 1d12, the surprising charge is 1d12...being mounted with a spear is 1d12, you have an extra d12 that isn't apparent...

As for the boar, you are charging on the boar, it isn't charging... thus the boar only does a gore attack, which is +13 (+11 base +2 combat advantage), 2d10 +4....and it doesn't knock the enemy prone.

So your damage should be 2d12 (weapon) + 1d12 (surprising charge) + 1d8 (vanguard) + 1d6 (Horned Helm, if you dont agree with item levels above) + 1d6 (quarry) + 5 (str) + 2(wis) + 1 (enchantment) + 2 (armbands) + 1 (versitile) + 1 (expertise)

However, not sure the rules about Themes, but if you took the Hordelands Nomad Theme, you'd get Mounted Combat for free...thus you could then use the free feat for something like Powerful Charge (+2 dmg)...so if you went that route, you'd be +14 to dmg...

Edit: So, based on a comment, where you can have items worht up to 8,119 GP at this level...if you do that, and use the theme, then:
you: 3d12 +1d8 +2d6 +14
boar: 2d10 +4

PC DPR: .8 * 45 = 36
PC Crit: .05 * 74.5 (70 max dmg + 4.5 (weapon crit 1d8) = 3.725
Boar: .65 * 15 = 9.75
Boar Crit: .05 * 24 = 1.2

Total DPR: 36 + 3.725 + 9.75 + 1.2 = 50.675
Total KPR: 50.675/72 = .703819

which is pretty freaking sweet...still curious about that extra d12 though...

A level 6 character can easily have 3 level 6 items, assuming it was levelled and not created. DPR Kings assumes a normal wealth allotment. Not sure why you think the high level character creation rules are relevant.

Dec 25, 2012 -- 2:38PM, Tharc wrote:

Sep 18, 2012 -- 10:04AM, RX-75 wrote:

Hybrid Fighter/Ranger Charge maunt

Damage: 2d12  (Weapon) + 2d12 (Surprising Charge) + 1d8 (Vanguard) + 1d6 (Horned Helm) + 1d6 (Qarry) + 5 (Str) + 2 (Wis) +  1  (Ench)
+ 2 (Iron Armband of Power) + 1 (Versetile) + 1 (spear Expertise)

is this corect?

I'm not sure this is correct...

several things...

Edit: redact this next paragraph, WOTC dictates 8,119 GP, which works...I was going off Lair assault..
first you are assuming you can have 3 level 6 items at that level. Going on Lair assault, that wont quite work...instead you should consider the items to be: vanguard spear +1 (level 3, thus purchaseable), iron armbands of power (heroic) (level 6), Dire Boar (level 7 item that is a level 6 instead), Hide armor of the charging wind +1 (level 5 item)...marauder hide armor might be better to use here.
 
Furthermore, how are you getting 4d12? The spear is 1d12, the surprising charge is 1d12...being mounted with a spear is 1d12, you have an extra d12 that isn't apparent...

As for the boar, you are charging on the boar, it isn't charging... thus the boar only does a gore attack, which is +13 (+11 base +2 combat advantage), 2d10 +4....and it doesn't knock the enemy prone.

So your damage should be 2d12 (weapon) + 1d12 (surprising charge) + 1d8 (vanguard) + 1d6 (Horned Helm, if you dont agree with item levels above) + 1d6 (quarry) + 5 (str) + 2(wis) + 1 (enchantment) + 2 (armbands) + 1 (versitile) + 1 (expertise)

However, not sure the rules about Themes, but if you took the Hordelands Nomad Theme, you'd get Mounted Combat for free...thus you could then use the free feat for something like Powerful Charge (+2 dmg)...so if you went that route, you'd be +14 to dmg...

Edit: So, based on a comment, where you can have items worht up to 8,119 GP at this level...if you do that, and use the theme, then:
you: 3d12 +1d8 +2d6 +14
boar: 2d10 +4

PC DPR: .8 * 45 = 36
PC Crit: .05 * 74.5 (70 max dmg + 4.5 (weapon crit 1d8) = 3.725
Boar: .65 * 15 = 9.75
Boar Crit: .05 * 24 = 1.2

Total DPR: 36 + 3.725 + 9.75 + 1.2 = 50.675
Total KPR: 50.675/72 = .703819

which is pretty freaking sweet...still curious about that extra d12 though...

the extra d12 i  thought it was weapon damage wen you mount so you dubbed it whit surprising charge

you know i added surprising charge after mounting because then the weapon dos 2d12 do you get my thought

Surprising Charge

Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Dex 17, fighter or rogue
Benefit: When you make a charge attack against a target that is granting combat advantage to you, the attack deals 1[W] extra damage if you hit with a light blade or a spear.

Based on that, it isn't a double, it's simply 1 weapon more. If it was double, that'd be awesome but totally broken...regardless, you have a stellar build for level 6...I think my addition of taking the theme that grants you mounted combat and then taking powerful charge would increase the damage to the max.

.7038 KPR is still #1 for level 6....

one other quick note...
Saying you want to use this build for Lair Assault...(which is what drew me to it in the first place)
Instead of the wild boar (lvl 6), you could take a Griffon (lvl 7): you get Fly 10 speed and, when you charge, you get 2 free claw attacks:  +14/16 vs AC (12 base, 2 CA, potentially +2 more if the griffon is bloodied)...and the damage is 2d6 +10 per hit...Let's also not forget that the Griffon has 98 HPs and you have 58 HPs, so that is some nice damage absorption...

You would have to drop the horned helm and your items would most likely be: Vanguard Lance +1, Iron Armbands of Power (lvl 6), Hide Armor of the Charging Wind (lvl 5), Griffon (lvl 7)

So, based on the different equpiment layout...
PC DPR: .8 * 41.5 = 36
PC Crit: .05 * 68.5 (64 max dmg + 4.5 (weapon crit 1d8) = 3.725
Griffon DPR: .7 * 34 (3.5 *4 + 20) = 23.8
Griffon Crit: .05 * 44 (6 * 4 + 20) = 2.2

Total DPR: 65.725
Total KPR: DPR/72 = .91284

ok i thought wen you was mounted your lance did 2d10 on charge as weapon damage but it gives you the same bonus as surprising charge it gives you 1W extra damage on mounted charge so the weapon damage docent change

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Tyrael Archangel, level 16
Tiefling, Warlock, Morninglord
Build: Scourge Warlock
Eldritch Pact: Infernal Pact
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (Dagger)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Rod)
Background: Imbuer (Imbuer Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 24, Dex 14, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 16.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 18, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10.

AC: 24 Fort: 25 Reflex: 21 Will: 22
HP: 111 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 27

TRAINED SKILLS
Thievery +15, Bluff +20, Arcana +13, Streetwise +16, Religion +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Diplomacy +13, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +15, Heal +10, History +8, Insight +10, Intimidate +11, Nature +10, Perception +10, Stealth +12, Athletics +7

FEATS
Level 1: Initiate of the Faith
Level 2: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 4: White Lotus Hindrance
Level 6: Blood Pact of Cania
Level 8: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 10: Hellfire Blood
Level 11: Versatile Expertise
Level 12: Superior Implement Training (Incendiary dagger)
Level 14: White Lotus Riposte
Level 16: White Lotus Master Riposte

POWERS
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Strike
Infernal Pact: Hellish Rebuke
Warlock encounter 1: Chains of Levistus
Warlock daily 1: Crown of Stars
Warlock utility 2: Ethereal Stride

ITEMS
Pelor's Sun Blessing (level 3), Radiant Incendiary dagger +4, Rod of Smiting +4, Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier), Siberys Shard of Radiance (paragon tier), Shadow Warlock Leather Armor +2
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

I am showing 229.05 DPR with this build at 16. I may have some math wrong so go double check me. I stole this idea from OneCrazyMojo and his avenger build.  He used frost vurn and radiance vurn I dont know if they can stack? If you see any tweaks let me know!

Thanks 

Assumptions:
1) This kicks off on the second Round of Combat. (for stacking Hellish Rebukes, or just use an AP)
2) I assume the enemy will take an AoO on Tyrael for using a range attack in melee. (the enemy most likely wont be able to shift due to hindering terrain) 
3)Multiple cast of hellish rebuke stacks

 

Hellish Rebuke

+26 Attack (8 LVL, 7 Con, 4 Enh, 2 CA, 2 Feat, 1 Darksun Theme , 1 Prime Shot, 1 Hellfire Blood) v Ref 27 | Base Accuracy 95%

Hellish
d6+50 (7 Con, 4 Enh, 4 Dual Implement  7 Pelor Belssing, 3 Blood Pact of Cania, 1 Hellfire Blood, 4 Radiant Weapon, 3 Superior Implement Bonus, 2 Frozen Whetstone, 2 Gloves of Ice, 3 Shard of radiance, 10 Vurn to Radiant, 2d6 Curse ) [60.5] | Crit 58+4d6 [90]
Hellish = .90*60.5 [54.45]+ .05*90 [4.5]= [58.95]

Rebuke
d6+46 (7 Con, 4 Enh, 4 Dual Implament, 7 Pelor Belssing, 3 Blood Pact of Cania, 1 Hellfire Blood, 4 Radiant Weapon, 3 Superior Implement Bonus, 3 Shard of radiance, 10 Vurnibility to Radiant) [49.5]
Rebuke = .95*49.5 = [47.025]

White Lotus Ripost
(7 Con, 10 Vurn to Radiant, 7 Pelor's Blessing) [24]

White Lotus Master Ripost
d6+50 (7 Con, 4 Enh, 4 Dual Implement  7 Pelor Blessing  3 Blood Pact of Cania, 1 Hellfire Blood, 4 Radiant Weapon, 3 Superior Implement Bonus, 2 Frozen Whetstone, 2 Gloves of Ice, 3 Shard of radiance, 10 Vurn to Radiant) [53.5] | Crit 58+4d6 [78]

White Lotus Master Ripost Hellish = .90*60.5 [48.15]+ .05*90 [3.9]= [52.05]
d6+46 (7 Con, 4 Enh, 4 Dual Implement  7 Pelor Blessing  3 Blood Pact of Cania, 1 Hellfire Blood, 4 Radiant Weapon, 3 Superior Implement Bonus, 3 Shard of radiance, 10 Vurn to Radiant) [49.5]

White Lotus Master Ripost Rebuke = .95*49.5 = [47.025]

DPR King's assumes that the monster takes the most advantageous action for it (i.e. least for you). In this case it won't attack you. It has no reason to do so.

Dec 29, 2012 -- 5:50PM, Fardiz wrote:

DPR King's assumes that the monster takes the most advantageous action for it (i.e. least for you). In this case it won't attack you. It has no reason to do so.

I understand that.

Like i said this was mostly taken from a build that works of the old DPR King using WLR strike back as its main theme. In that build the monster had the option to shift and perhaps hit another character without walking into the WLR blender. I assumed if it was counted for the morninglord avenger build it would equally be counted for another strike back character

Unlike that build this monster can not shift (difficult terrain). I guess he could just draw eldritch strike AoO's moving every round or use buffing style powers... standing still... hopelessly begging to his Deity to save him


But lets say he just drew the AoO and he was just trying to flee. That lowers the DPR 116.9. the key is doing damage to yourself...anyone have a good way to do that? Caltrops perhaps? That would stack on another [47.025] from the rebuke uping the DPR to [163.925]

Worth noting that you can't apply both WLR and WLH to the same attack.

Dec 29, 2012 -- 11:19PM, Zathris wrote:

Worth noting that you can't apply both WLR and WLH to the same attack.

So the WLH needs to be switched for Mark of finding allowing the free shift. Per the case of the last level 16 DPR king.