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Switch to Forum Live View DPR King Candidates 2.0
3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2010 - 7:59PM #21
Dirge-Overdrive
Date Joined: Feb 7, 2009
Posts: 2,247
I think the Human Tempest Fighter in the heroic tier list shouldn't be using the Spirited Rider feat and the Deft Hurler feat together.  We've since had guidance that only one at-will modifying feat can be used with any single attack.
Also, I don't know if this competition is focused on single target damage or not, but Deft Hurler can no longer be used to attack the primary target a second time.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2010 - 8:02PM #22
borg285
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2008
Posts: 2,868

Jan 9, 2010 -- 7:59PM, Dirge-Overdrive wrote:

I think the Human Tempest Fighter in the heroic tier list shouldn't be using the Spirited Rider feat and the Deft Hurler feat together.  We've since had guidance that only one at-will modifying feat can be used with any single attack.
Also, I don't know if this competition is focused on single target damage or not, but Deft Hurler can no longer be used to attack the primary target a second time.



Thank you and check.

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for? Show

You're fired          : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR
Fair Striker          : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR
Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR
Nerfbat please     : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR
It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR

DPR?  KPR?  KP4R?  Bless you Show

DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit
KPR = Kills Per Round.  1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage
       = DPR/(8*level+24)
KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds.  How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2010 - 8:20PM #23
Elwyndas
Date Joined: Jul 7, 2008
Posts: 1,749
Human Barbarian, level 1
Howling Strike
Str 20
Feats: Fullblade proficiency, Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blades)

Weapon: Fullblade
Attack: Howling Strike, +9 vs AC 15
Hit: 1d12+1d6+5
Miss: 0
Crit: 23+1d12, Rampage attack: +9 vs AC 15, 1d12+5, Crit: 17+1d12
DPR: 16.66

Unfortunately I'm too dumb to get the formula running in Excel, so I used this tool:
dndcalculator.blogspot.com/
Can you guys please help me out and educate me on how to set this up in Excel?
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2010 - 8:49PM #24
Elder_basilisk
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 2,524

Jan 9, 2010 -- 8:20PM, Elwyndas wrote:

Human Barbarian, level 1
Howling Strike
Str 20
Feats: Fullblade proficiency, Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blades)

Weapon: Fullblade
Attack: Howling Strike, +9 vs AC 15
Hit: 1d12+1d6+5
Miss: 0
Crit: 23+1d12, Rampage attack: +9 vs AC 15, 1d12+5, Crit: 17+1d12
DPR: 16.66

Unfortunately I'm too dumb to get the formula running in Excel, so I used this tool:
dndcalculator.blogspot.com/
Can you guys please help me out and educate me on how to set this up in Excel?




I don't see how this can possibly offer 16.66 DPR.

You hit on a 6 for a 70% chance for a normal hit and a 5% chance for a crit.
Normal hit average damage is 15. 70% of that is 10.5
On a crit, howling strike deals 23+1d12 for an average of 29.5. The crit directly contributes 1.475 to DPR for a DPR of 11.975
Then Rampage kicks in for a 70% chance of 11.5 damage and a 5% chance of 23.5. Those add 0.4025 and 0.05875 DPR to the total.
The total DPR I come up with is 12.43625

That's a long way from 16.66

--EDITED to reflect ElricEN's correction below--

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2010 - 9:21PM #25
ElricEN
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2009
Posts: 182

Jan 9, 2010 -- 8:49PM, Elder_basilisk wrote:



I don't see how this can possibly offer 16.66 DPR.

You hit on a 6 for a 70% chance for a normal hit and a 5% chance for a crit.
Normal hit average damage is 15. 70% of that is 10.5
On a crit, howling strike deals 23+1d12 for an average of 29.5. The crit directly contributes 1.475 to DPR for a DPR of 11.975
Then Rampage kicks in for a 70% chance of 11.5 damage and a 5% chance of 23.5. Those add 0.575 and 0.05875 DPR to the total.
The total DPR I come up with is 12.60875

That's a long way from 16.66




I get 12.44 DPR.  You didn't multiply the 0.7 chance to hit by the 11.5 damage on the critical (used 1 instead of 0.7), which is why your answer is different.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2010 - 9:27PM #26
Elder_basilisk
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 2,524
Here's a contribution to the heroic tier nova sweepstakes: It's not a build I would play exactly though I am playing a slightly less aggressive version that is a lot of fun.

Level 1 nova
Average Damage 61.946 Palavenger (1), by Elder Basilisk [nAC=2, nfort=1, nref=-4, nwill=-2]

(note--those ndef values seem a bit low; I'm not sure I'm calculating them right. With fullplate, he has AC 18, Fort 17, Ref 12, Will 14--that's not good, but it's not as abysmal as those ndef stats subtracting (15+level) make it appear to be)

Human paladin, Str 20, Wis 14, Cha 11; Disciple of divine wrath, fullblade proficiency.
Atk: +8 vs AC 15 for 1d12+5

Preparation: It appears from the level 30 nova that we assume that we can begin the turn adjacent to target. Lordduskblade's build assumes several setup actions that do not target the bad guy, so I'm not sure whether or not a setup round disciple of divine wrath oath of enmity would be appropriate. I'll do three versions here: the first assumes adjacency but no enemy-targetting powers in the setup round. The second assumes enemy targetting powers in the setup round and the third will assume neither adjacency nor enemy targetting powers in the setup round. The fourth will include damage from round 1 as well.

Version 1: Average Damage: 61.94625
Setup round: Move adjacent to target
Nova Round:
Minor: Oath of Enmity
Minor: Ardent Vow
Standard: Blood of the Mighty
Action point: Heedless Fury

+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 4d12+5+7 (ardent vow)
+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 3d12+5

Damage: .0975* (60+1d12)+ .8125 * 38 (blood of the mighty) plus .0975 * (41+1d12) +.8125 *24.5

Version 2: Average Damage: 66.44625
Setup round: Oath of enmity (via disciple of divine wrath)
Nova Round:
Minor: Divine Strength
Minor: Ardent Vow
Standard: Blood of the Mighty
Action point: Heedless Fury

+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 4d12+5+7 (ardent vow) +5 divine strength
+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 3d12+5

Damage: .0975* (65+1d12)+ .8125 * 43 (blood of the mighty) plus .0975 * (41+1d12) +.8125 *24.5

Version 3: Average Damage: 55.52625
Setup round: none
Nova Round:
Move: move adjacent to target
Minor: Oath of Enmity
Standard: Blood of the Mighty
Action point: Heedless Fury

+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 4d12+5
+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 3d12+5

Damage: .0975* (53+1d12)+ .8125 * 31 (blood of the mighty) plus .0975 * (41+1d12) +.8125 *24.5

Version 4: Average Damage over two rounds: 85.7175
Round 1:
Minor: Oath of enmity (via disciple of divine wrath)
Minor: Divine strength
Standard: Charge with Ardent Strike

Nova Round:
Minor: Ardent Vow
Standard: Blood of the Mighty
Minor: Ardent Vow
Action point: Heedless Fury

Round 1:
+9 roll twice vs AC 15 for 1d12+10

Round 2
+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 4d12+5+7 (ardent vow)
+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 3d12+5 +7 (ardent vow)

Damage:
.0975*(22+1d12)+ .84*16.5 (Ardent strike)+ .0975* (60+1d12)+ .8125 * 38 (blood of the mighty) plus .0975 * (48+1d12) +.8125 *32.5

For kicks, DPR against a marked target is: Holy Strike +8 vs AC 15 for 1d12 + 7
.05*25.5+.65*13.5= 10.05 DPR

That's not going to win any awards, but it's not terrible level 1 DPR either.

--EDIT to fix at-will DPR--
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2010 - 9:46PM #27
borg285
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2008
Posts: 2,868

Jan 9, 2010 -- 9:27PM, Elder_basilisk wrote:

Here's a contribution to the heroic tier nova sweepstakes: It's not a build I would play exactly though I am playing a slightly less aggressive version that is a lot of fun.

Level 1 nova
Average Damage 61.946 Palavenger (1), by Elder Basilisk [nAC=2, nfort=1, nref=-4, nwill=-2]

(note--those ndef values seem a bit low; I'm not sure I'm calculating them right. With fullplate, he has AC 18, Fort 17, Ref 12, Will 14--that's not good, but it's not as abysmal as those ndef stats subtracting (15+level) make it appear to be)

Human paladin, Str 20, Wis 14, Cha 11; Disciple of divine wrath, fullblade proficiency.
Atk: +8 vs AC 15 for 1d12+5

Preparation: It appears from the level 30 nova that we assume that we can begin the turn adjacent to target. Lordduskblade's build assumes several setup actions that do not target the bad guy, so I'm not sure whether or not a setup round disciple of divine wrath oath of enmity would be appropriate. I'll do three versions here: the first assumes adjacency but no enemy-targetting powers in the setup round. The second assumes enemy targetting powers in the setup round and the third will assume neither adjacency nor enemy targetting powers in the setup round.

Version 1: Average Damage: 61.94625
Setup round: Move adjacent to target
Nova Round:
Minor: Oath of Enmity
Minor: Ardent Vow
Standard: Blood of the Mighty
Action point: Heedless Fury

+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 4d12+5+7 (ardent vow)
+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 3d12+5

Damage: .0975* (60+1d12)+ .8125 * 38 (blood of the mighty) plus .0975 * (41+1d12) +.8125 *24.5

Version 2: Average Damage: 66.44625
Setup round: Oath of enmity (via disciple of divine wrath)
Nova Round:
Minor: Divine Strength
Minor: Ardent Vow
Standard: Blood of the Mighty
Action point: Heedless Fury

+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 4d12+5+7 (ardent vow) +5 divine strength
+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 3d12+5

Damage: .0975* (65+1d12)+ .8125 * 43 (blood of the mighty) plus .0975 * (41+1d12) +.8125 *24.5

Version 3: Average Damage: 55.52625
Setup round: none
Nova Round:
Move: move adjacent to target
Minor: Oath of Enmity
Standard: Blood of the Mighty
Action point: Heedless Fury

+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 4d12+5
+8 roll twice vs AC 15 for 3d12+5

Damage: .0975* (53+1d12)+ .8125 * 31 (blood of the mighty) plus .0975 * (41+1d12) +.8125 *24.5

For kicks, DPR against a marked target is: Holy Strike +8 vs AC 15 for 1d12 + 7
.05*25.5+.65*14.5= 10.7 DPR

That's not going to win any awards, but it's not bad level 1 DPR either.



Thank you so much for being the first to submit with the format I outlined.  Please tell me how difficult was it.  What could I do to simplify the process?  I presume you meant daily nova.  I'll fix the normalized NAD calculation.  I meant to have found the thread that describes how to calculate them and how they compare.  you do REF - 13 - level.

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for? Show

You're fired          : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR
Fair Striker          : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR
Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR
Nerfbat please     : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR
It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR

DPR?  KPR?  KP4R?  Bless you Show

DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit
KPR = Kills Per Round.  1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage
       = DPR/(8*level+24)
KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds.  How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2010 - 10:09PM #28
ElricEN
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2009
Posts: 182

Jan 9, 2010 -- 9:46PM, borg285 wrote:

Thank you so much for being the first to submit with the format I outlined.  Please tell me how difficult was it.  What could I do to simplify the process?  I presume you meant daily nova.  I'll fix the normalized NAD calculation.  I meant to have found the thread that describes how to calculate them and how they compare.  you do REF - 13 - level.




There's no reason to use this complicated a measure.  Normalized defense= Actual Defense- level.  Done!  This doesn't embed a particular standard, but it's much easier to know what you're looking at, and comparing between builds is easy.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2010 - 10:48PM #29
Elder_basilisk
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 2,524
The paladin detailed above is obviously only as effective as it is because, unlike most builds, it is capable of burning every single daily and encounter power it gets to do single target damage over two rounds. It also has a grand total of zero wasted actions which makes the nova a little unrealistic (But, hey, what nova isn't a little unrealistic? We're talking AC 15 monsters here--AC 15 monsters will almost never survive that nova long enough to justify the second ardent vow and action point for heedless fury). A real monster could reduce the nova's DPR simply by shifting one square away from the paladin after the setup round.

But I noticed that you have a level 6 nova entry, so I thought I'd put up a level 6 version of the nova since it turns out that the paladin can actually solve that aspect of the unrealistic scenario. If the paladin uses hold fast on the charge, the target is immobilized until the end of his next turn, thus preventing the target from moving away. Other foes could still move in and ruin the oath of enmity bonus and the paladin could still be beaten down, stunned, dazed, weakened, etc, but the easiest avenue of escape from the nova is closed off.

Level 6 Palavenger. Str 21, Con 10, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 11
Feats: Disciple of Divine Wrath (b), fullblade proficiency (1), Weapon Focus: heavy blades (2), Weapon Expertise: heavy blades (4), Action Surge (6)
Build option: Ardent Vow
Powers: at will: Ardent strike, holy strike, valiant strike
Encounter: Heedless Fury, Hold Fast
Utility: Bless Weapon, Shield of Discipline
Daily: Blood of the Mighty, Martyr's Retribution

Equipment: +2 magic fullblade, Iron armbands of power, gauntlets of ogre power, +1 black iron armor, +1 amulet of protection

(gauntlets of ogre power--terrible item, but I can't think of a better level 5 item to support the nova; if we're resolved to blow all our daily powers (and most of the encounters) in two rounds, why not go whole hog and add an item daily to the mix?)

AC 22, Fort 21, Ref 16, Will 18

Basic Attack: +14 for 1d12+10
Holy Strike vs marked target: +14 for 1d12+12


Version 4: Average Damage over two rounds: 122.47671875
Round 1:
Minor: Oath of enmity (via disciple of divine wrath)
Minor: Divine strength
Standard: Charge with Hold Fast
Free: Apply gauntlets of ogre power to the first hit

Nova Round:
Minor: Ardent Vow
Standard: Martyr's Retribution
Minor: Ardent Vow
Action point: Blood of the Mighty

Round 1:
+15 roll twice vs AC 20 for 2d12+15

Round 2
+14 roll twice vs AC 20 for 4d12+10+7 (ardent vow)
+14 roll twice vs AC 20 for 4d12+10 +7 (ardent vow), half damage on a miss

Damage:
.0975*(39+1d12)+ .8625*28 (Hold Fast)+ .0975* (65+1d12+2d6)+ .84 * 43 +.0625*21.5 (Martyr's Retribution) plus .0975 * (65+1d12+2d6) +.84 *43  (Blood of the Mighty) + (1-.04*.0625*.0625)*5 (gauntlets of ogre power)= 122.47671875

For kicks, Level 6 DPR against a marked target is:
Holy Strike +14 vs AC 20 for 1d12 + 12
.05*37.5+.7*18.5= 14.825 DPR

That DPR is not going to win any awards, but it's not terrible DPR for a level 6 character either.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2010 - 11:09PM #30
Elder_basilisk
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 2,524

Jan 9, 2010 -- 9:46PM, borg285 wrote:

Thank you so much for being the first to submit with the format I outlined.  Please tell me how difficult was it.  What could I do to simplify the process?  I presume you meant daily nova.  I'll fix the normalized NAD calculation.  I meant to have found the thread that describes how to calculate them and how they compare.  you do REF - 13 - level.




It wasn't too difficult, but I didn't find the template easy to follow either. All of the XXXs, brackets, and cheese symbols make it a bit hard to read.

Also, I'm still a bit mystified by how the heck you come up with the normalized defenses. Looking at the stormwarden's normalized defenses, I can tell that my calculations are not done in the same way since the Palavenger has higher AC (by 2), Fortitude (by 2), and Will (by 2)defenses and his Ref is only 2 lower but the Stormwarden's nAC is only one lower, his nfort is the same, his nref is four higher, and his nwill is the same. Based on those numbers, it would initially appear the the normalization is against the standard monster's 14+level AC and 12+level NADs, but in that case, the stormwarden's nfort would be 2 rather than 3, nref would be 1 rather than 2, and nwill would be -1 rather than 0. In general, I agree with the previous poster that it would be easier to explain and to calculate if we simply used defense-level as the formula.

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