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Locked: Differences between 3.5 and 4?
3 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2010 - 11:34AM #451
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Date Joined: May 31, 2003
Posts: 5,317
Still smells like denial and houserules in here.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2010 - 11:35AM #452
Oprah_Windfury
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2009
Posts: 861
Until you can find any evidence in the rules to back up any of your arguments, kindly keep your opinions to yourself.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2010 - 11:42AM #453
wrecan
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Date Joined: Jun 23, 2005
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Jan 20, 2010 -- 11:34AM, XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:

Still smells like denial and houserules in here.



I imagine that odor follows you to all your threads.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2010 - 11:54AM #454
mudbunny
Date Joined: Sep 28, 2006
Posts: 8,805

Jan 20, 2010 -- 11:42AM, wrecan wrote:

Jan 20, 2010 -- 11:34AM, XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:

Still smells like denial and houserules in here.



I imagine that odor follows you to all your threads.




You owe me a new keyboard.

Mudbunny
SVCL for DDI

Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2010 - 12:00PM #455
williamhm75
Date Joined: Jan 22, 2008
Posts: 8,460
Well im not going to argue the stone shape thing because there were a lot worse tricks you could pull.  At one point we summoned a badger cast enlarge animal on it, had it burrow under ground with explosives attached to it under an undead army where they had a giant siege engine, the badger set the explosives off and blew their contraption sky high.  There were sooo many ways for an intelligient caster to screw with enemies.  We had a druid once make the field very wet and mudy through weather spells.  Then once the enemy army was marching through did the spell that transforms mud to stone the army was stuck for quite awhile while we just blasted them and laughed hysterically.   No one has yet shown me a way that a fighter is a worthwhile class.  Even xun's example of an occult slayer uses a prestidge class.  Show me a FIGHTER not someone with a prestidge class but a fighter that is useful in a party at all levels.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2010 - 12:14PM #456
Zardnaar
Date Joined: Apr 15, 2001
Posts: 8,960
Fighter 1-20

Two handed weapon (Greatsword/Axe, Jovar etc)

Relevent feats (Complete Warrior, PHB2, PHB)

Power Attack, Cleave
Improved Critical XYZ weapon
Close Quarters Fighting
Power Critical
Weapon Focus XYZ weapon
Weapon Specilization XYZ weapon

 Thats the guts of the build. Hits hard, hits often, tweak with various feats from PHB2 and Complete Warrior. Get relevent magic items (Ring of Freedom of Movement etc), those cheap items that from MIC that boost your will saves. Can he take a wizard in a dual. Probably not. Can the fighter kill more or less anything in a team game from the MM- yes. Probably have about +20 to hit by level 11 which is high enough to reliably hit most creatures most of the time even with secondary attacks. If someone grapples him the fighter gets an AoO and gets to add the damage to the grapple roll and with a 2HW it will be alot espicially if the fighter is power attacking or using a Jovar.

 Gets even better if you use the Pathfinder Fighter, and have houseruled saves increase every 2 levels a'la 4th ed. In effect it nerfs the save or dies espicially combined with the Magic Item Compendium (MIC).

 Unless the DM is going out of his way to screw the fighter out of magic items using the wealth guidelines, get some that take care of the more commen problems (grapple, invisability, fly).

An archer fighter would be another idea with a few arrows for special occasions (mage bane, human bane, holy etc). Odds are you will be able to kill any opposing creature in 1-3 rounds. Would stil probably struggle with NPC spellcasters mano a mano but realistically thats not gonna happen alot unless your DM is a sadist.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*

*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2010 - 12:33PM #457
Oprah_Windfury
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2009
Posts: 861
The Cleric takes Extend Spell and Persistent Spell, then takes a handy little feat from Complete Divine called Divine Metamagic, which lets him spend his turn attempts to apply metamagic feats to his spells (specifically, Persistent Spell).

Next, he has to find a way to get a bunch of turn attempts. Extra Turning does the job nicely, and can be taken multiple times, but in Libris Mortis there is a handy and relatively cheap (7.5K gold) wonderous item called a Rod of Nightstick, which adds 4 extra turn attempts per day. Most Clerics carry anywhere between two and five.

The Cleric then casts Righteous Might, Divine Power, and Divine Favor on himself, using his turn attempts to Persist them. The Cleric now has the following benefits all the time:
+10 Strength
+2 Constitution
A Fighter's Base Attack Bonus
d10 Hit Dice
+2 Natural Armor
DR/Evil
Reach (comes with being Large)
At least a +3 Luck bonus on attack and damage rolls

This is, of course, before the Cleric casts his actual buffs, such as Spiritual Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, and Magic Vestments. These spells alleviate the need for the Cleric to spend money on magic weapons and armor, which means he can spend more money on Nightsticks, which means he can Persist more spells, as well as a Ring of Counterspelling attuned to Dispel Magic, making his buffs all but impossible to dispel.

In short, the Cleric is better than the Fighter at being a meat shield, and is still a Cleric. He can still heal, scry, cast Save or Die spells, use Wands without a UMD check, and everything else Cleric-y. With a minimal feat investment, the Cleric has 100% eclipsed the fighter.

The sad part of this is that the Cleric barely had to dip outside of the core rules to do it. All the spells mentioned above are in the Player's Handbook. All it took for the Cleric to be able to outfight the fighter was three feats (two of them Core) and a single magic item (albeit purchased multiple times).

Fighters are useless.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2010 - 12:45PM #458
Zardnaar
Date Joined: Apr 15, 2001
Posts: 8,960
Divine metamagic is banned in my games for that reason. It also wasn't a cleric vs fighter thing but the challenge was make an effective fighter which one of my PCs are playing right now. Extend Spell+persisten spell have been abused going back to 3.0. Just say no to persisten spell takes alot of oomph out of various cleric builds. A fighter can still defeat monsters and NPCs the party is likely to face. Baing natural spell also helps BTW before someone gets a idea to post a Druid build.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*

*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2010 - 12:55PM #459
Oprah_Windfury
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2009
Posts: 861
To be fair, the Cleric without Divine Metamagic is still better than the fighter, he just has to work harder at it. He'll just grab a large number of Wands of Cure Light Wounds, spend all of his spell slots on buff / attack spells, use Extend Spell for all his buffs, and still be totally effing metal. Or, he'll just boost his caster level a ton and make the most out of Holy Word. The main point was that the vast majority of Cleric cheese is available right there in the PHB1, and for the fighter to even compete he needs to dip outside core and make use of the splatbooks.

The Cleric and Druid need to be kept on a tight leash in order to bring them in line. Houseruled banning of key feats is 100% necessary. Read as written, using the rules right there in the core rulebook, the Cleric and Druid are just plain better. Give the Cleric or the Druid the same options you're giving the fighter in terms of what he can and can't use, and he'll punish you for it twelve times over.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2010 - 2:46PM #460
Zardnaar
Date Joined: Apr 15, 2001
Posts: 8,960
Its reasonably easy and obvious to ban or just say no to the required cheese.

Feats Natural spell, Divine Metamagic
Magic items. Things that boost caster level, night sticks.

 Its not like 4th ed is immune to things like this (Blade Cascade requiring errata). Or if you visit the char op boards theres things like stun lock wizards, and some posters here have mentioned off the wall parties like mostly strikers+leaders or even an all leader party since the damage difference between various classes/roles isn't that drastic. Not to many people here post XYZ class is useless because XYZ class is better 90% of the time or that the srtiker/controller/defenders roles are pointless if you can run an effective all leader party that won't die and still deal enough damage to win encounters. Several posters seem to skip controllers all togather as an optionbal role as while nice to have so is another striker or leader.

 Min maxers tend to ruin any system and 4th ed isn't immune by any means. Very few if any damage dealing spells were broken in 3.5 which is probably why most 4th ed powers deal XYZ damage and may have some staus effect tacked on.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*

*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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