|
3 years ago ::
Dec 31, 2009 - 7:04AM
#71
|
Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2004
|
Wow... I didn't mean to start this big of a fight.
I think this boils down to whether or not your definition of "as if" means it counts exactly as or not. For some people it does and for others it does not. And neither is wrong, it's just their interpretation.
I think the way it's worded means something. If the power had said: "The target regains their healing surge value in hit points but doesn't spend the healing surge" then I would agree that it doesn't count. But since it says "as if they had spend a healing surge" then I think it's open to interpretation what "as if" can mean. And I think we can see it both ways no matter which side we're on. What they really need is a line at the end that says: "All other effects based on spending a healing surge do/do not trigger when using this power." Wouldn't that just solve everything?
For what it's worth, my group has played that it does work and we've never found it as overpowered as some would suggest.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Dec 31, 2009 - 7:55AM
#72
|
|
|
If the power had said: "The target regains their healing surge value in hit points but doesn't spend the healing surge" then I would agree that it doesn't count.
Personally, this exactly is my biggest reason for initially thinking that CLW -should- benefit.
I don't think it would be overpowered if so (no more than healing word, anyway)--I think some people have a gut reaction to anything that boosts "surgeless healing;" but CLW isn't really an issue in this regard.
Off-topic slightly: my thinking is that "surgeless healing" is fine if it's a daily; it's essentially just adding one to the amount of total healing surges the party has. Daily surgeless healing is different from something like the pre-errata unicorn's touch, which allows repeated surgeless healing, which is where the problem arises.
Buuuut CS said otherwise.
I don't think it's a big deal either way for non-RPGA games; just briefly present both sides and see what your group prefers. Put it to a vote, if necessary. The game is mostly about making the group happy, anyway. 
The world is a mess, I just need to... rule it.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Dec 31, 2009 - 10:51AM
#73
|
Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
|
Wow... I didn't mean to start this big of a fight.
I think this boils down to whether or not your definition of "as if" means it counts exactly as or not. For some people it does and for others it does not. And neither is wrong, it's just their interpretation.
I think the way it's worded means something. If the power had said: "The target regains their healing surge value in hit points but doesn't spend the healing surge" then I would agree that it doesn't count. But since it says "as if they had spend a healing surge" then I think it's open to interpretation what "as if" can mean. And I think we can see it both ways no matter which side we're on. What they really need is a line at the end that says: "All other effects based on spending a healing surge do/do not trigger when using this power." Wouldn't that just solve everything?
For what it's worth, my group has played that it does work and we've never found it as overpowered as some would suggest.
If they did not want it to work they needed only say that "You heal hitpoints equal to your healing surge value." Do not mention the spending of healing sures at all.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Dec 31, 2009 - 11:01PM
#74
|
Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2009
|
Dose the Pacifist Healer feat only work with abilities that make the target spend a healing surge ? Dose it work with spells such as cure light wounds that say they may spend a healing surge 'as if they had spent' a healing surge ?
Wow, I really arrived late to the party! Happy New Year everyone!!! =D
Anyway, I just went into the PHB1 and looked up the definition of "Healing Surges" and what exactly they mean with the term "as if". This is quoted on page 293 of the PHB1 if you want a reference point.
"Some powers (either your own or those of another character) allow you to heal as if you had spent a healing surge. When you receive such healing, you don’t actually spend a healing surge."
Now, while the above statement may already be known by the masses, it specifically states that the target does not spend a healing surge with regards to "as if". And from the definition of Pacifist Healer, the target must spend one for it to trigger. So, going by RAW, PH does not function with those "as if" abilties. I would really love to see a official printed answer from WotC concerning this. But, after seeing this thread, this is how I'll rule until I hear otherwise.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 01, 2010 - 1:00AM
#75
|
Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
|
Wow, I really arrived late to the party! Happy New Year everyone!!! =D
Anyway, I just went into the PHB1 and looked up the definition of "Healing Surges" and what exactly they mean with the term "as if". This is quoted on page 293 of the PHB1 if you want a reference point.
"Some powers (either your own or those of another character) allow you to heal as if you had spent a healing surge. When you receive such healing, you don’t actually spend a healing surge."
Now, while the above statement may already be known by the masses, it specifically states that the target does not spend a healing surge with regards to "as if". And from the definition of Pacifist Healer, the target must spend one for it to trigger. So, going by RAW, PH does not function with those "as if" abilties. I would really love to see a official printed answer from WotC concerning this. But, after seeing this thread, this is how I'll rule until I hear otherwise.
HNY back at ya...
It is not the spending of the surge that triggers PH. It is the use of a power that allows the target to spend a healing surge.
Now CLW (and the other "as if" powers as a general rule) do not specifically give the option to spend the surge. You just gain the HPs. No decision, no choice.
Most agree (I think) that these are not "allow" powers and PH does not work. I did not agree before, but agree now, though I still will let it work in my games.
Now in regards to other feats/items and such that work off of spending a healing surge, there is still much contension, but it is my belief that "as if" powers do work because they work as if you actually spent one. Otherwise the powers would have been better worded: The target gains hit points equal to their healing surge value.
That wording would better show that a set amount of health equal to yoru surge value will be gained, and it will have nothing to do with spending a healing surge.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 01, 2010 - 1:55AM
#76
|
Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2009
|
"The target gains hit points equal to their healing surge value."... That wording would better show that a set amount of health equal to your surge value will be gained, and it will have nothing to do with spending a healing surge.
Agreed.
...Most agree (I think) that these are not "allow" powers and PH does not work. I did not agree before, but agree now, though I still will let it work in my games.
My players have never used the PH feat before so I think they'll accept the RAW when they come across it.
I think that Players & DMs should look at Ability Powers, Item Powers, and Feats to make sure that they are being used properly according to the written rule. And scrutinize it to make sure it truly is as it was logically intended to be. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we should do our best as participants in 4e to maintain the status quo as long as it isn't upsetting the campaign balance.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 01, 2010 - 9:35PM
#77
|
Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
|
Anyway, I just went into the PHB1 and looked up the definition of "Healing Surges" and what exactly they mean with the term "as if". This is quoted on page 293 of the PHB1 if you want a reference point.
"Some powers (either your own or those of another character) allow you to heal as if you had spent a healing surge. When you receive such healing, you don’t actually spend a healing surge."
Now, while the above statement may already be known by the masses, it specifically states that the target does not spend a healing surge with regards to "as if". And from the definition of Pacifist Healer, the target must spend one for it to trigger. So, going by RAW, PH does not function with those "as if" abilties. I would really love to see a official printed answer from WotC concerning this. But, after seeing this thread, this is how I'll rule until I hear otherwise.
Interesting that two people can read the same quote and arrive at different conclusions.
That quote to me just locks it down the Pacificist Healer most definitely does work with Cure Light Wounds. It clearly implies that "as if" powers are supposed to work in all ways in regards to healing identically to ones in which a Healing Surge is spent.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 01, 2010 - 10:47PM
#78
|
Date Joined:
Sep 13, 2006
|
Interesting that two people can read the same quote and arrive at different conclusions.
That quote to me just locks it down the Pacificist Healer most definitely does work with Cure Light Wounds. It clearly implies that "as if" powers are supposed to work in all ways in regards to healing identically to ones in which a Healing Surge is spent.
That is certainly true! I read it the other way, because what seems important to me in that phrase is the word "you". "as if you had spent a healing surge". So anything that is attached to you affecting your healing surge value comes in to play here, including Collar of Recovery, Armor of Durability, Draconic Heritage, etc. All of those things affect your healing surge value, independent of what triggers the surge. That's the value that matches "as if you had spent a healing surge".
When a Pacifist Healer casts CLW, the feat potentially affects the power, not the target's surge value. And since CLW does not meet the requirements for Pacifist Healer, it doesn't add its bonus. Unlike, say, Healer's Lore, for which CLW does meet the requirements. Even then, Healer's Lore is not interacting with the "you" of this phrase. The hit points you are getting from the "as if you had spent a healing surge" are not increased by Healer's Lore. The Healer's Lore bonus is added to the power, it doesn't change your surge value.
You get (value of healing surge) + (bonuses from power). Some things modify the first term, some things modify the second term.
Agree to disagree and all that... it doesn't seem like a big balance problem to rule it either way. But I think this is a perfectly reasonable and consistent way to read things.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 01, 2010 - 11:16PM
#79
|
Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2007
|
For what it's worth, my group has played that it does work and we've never found it as overpowered as some would suggest.
No matter what anyone else here says, this is the most important thing said.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 02, 2010 - 12:00AM
#80
|
Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
|
For what it's worth, my group has played that it does work and we've never found it as overpowered as some would suggest.
No matter what anyone else here says, this is the most important thing said.
Agreed. Other than this: I like to have my underwear on my head while I shower. That was the most inportant thing said in the thread. 8)
Oh and yes, I let the cleric I DM use it also, and it is far from over powered. On the stuff that it is debatable that it works with, they are generally daily type powers, and I do not see how overpowered it can be to add a littel bit of extra healing on top of them.
But then again, this is the RaW boards. We are not talking about whether it is overpowered or not, but if it is legal.
|
|
|
