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3 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2009 - 11:26AM
#61
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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My initial reaction is to agree with what CS said: regain HP as if does not mean the power is treated in all ways as if the target spent surges.
Except that's exactly what it does mean for the Cure Wounds type powers. It means to treat it in all ways as if the target spent surges ... in regards to the hit points regained by the target.
This is the exact opposite of what customer service said.
That's not exactly the first time that CS has contradicted the plain text of the rules (or another CS response to the same question, for that matter). It's why CS responses aren't given much weight.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2009 - 11:32AM
#62
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2009
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My initial reaction is to agree with what CS said: regain HP as if does not mean the power is treated in all ways as if the target spent surges.
Except that's exactly what it does mean for the Cure Wounds type powers. It means to treat it in all ways as if the target spent surges ... in regards to the hit points regained by the target.
This is the exact opposite of what customer service said.
That's not exactly the first time that CS has contradicted the plain text of the rules (or another CS response to the same question, for that matter). It's why CS responses aren't given much weight.
Except, for LFR, CS is an official rule source. I don't like it but there you have it.
In this case, I think CS is reading the rules as written:
Does CLW invoke PH?
Is it divine? Yes.
Is it a power? Yes
Does it allow the target to spend a healing surge? No.
CLW does not trigger PH.
The argument that CLW would heal more with PH if it allowed the target to spend a healing surge is both circular and beside the point. CLW gives the hit points as if the target had spent a healing surge but not more healing as if the CLW had allowed the target to spend a healing surge.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2009 - 11:37AM
#63
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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This is the exact opposite of what customer service said.
Yes. That's because CustServ is wrong. Nothing unusual there at all.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2009 - 11:38AM
#64
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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Except, for LFR, CS is an official rule source. I don't like it but there you have it.
Sure, but the books are also an official rules source. What do you do when one contradicts the other, or when you have two contradicting CS responses (and if you look hard enough, you can probably find contradicting CS responses to every contested rule in the game)? At some point you have to decide which to apply; I don't think an LFR DM is going to get in trouble for playing by the rules in the book instead of what CS says.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2009 - 11:40AM
#65
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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I don't think an LFR DM is going to get in trouble for playing by the rules in the book instead of what CS says.
A LFR DM isn't going to get in trouble for anything in a non-convention game. I've had DMs make blatantly incorrect calls in LFR games, it's par for the course. Also contradictory rulings on the exact same rule between any 2 LFR games with different DMs is normal. The point is for them to *try* to make consistent rulings based on all available rules sources.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2009 - 11:58AM
#66
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Edit: As far as RAI goes, I think that the idea of simplicity in the rules would back up my position too. The intent for Cure Light Wounds is simple, it does what it says. And what it says is : "How much healing would you get if you spent a healing surge? That's how much you get."
Yours is the least simple interpretation.
Bob is a fighter. Bob has a healing surge value of 12. Bob regains HP as if he had spent a surge. How many HP did Bob regain?
One interpretation (12 HP) is quite simple, the other (it depends on who let him pretend to spend a surge) is not.
CLW doesn't say "regains hit points as if a Cleric let the target spend a surge", or "regains hit points as if a Cleric with Pacifist Healer let the target spend a surge." CLW says, "regains hit points as if the target spent a surge."
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3 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2009 - 12:26PM
#67
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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CLW doesn't say "regains hit points as if a Cleric let the target spend a surge", or "regains hit points as if a Cleric with Pacifist Healer let the target spend a surge." CLW says, "regains hit points as if the target spent a surge."
If those three things aren't the same, then you've made up some overly complicated and unnecessary logic to explain away the differences that only exist in your mind.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2009 - 12:38PM
#68
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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I spent the last few days talking to customer service about this feat and the whole phrase "As if you spent a healing surge". I just now got a straight answer from them.
The email is several pages long so I'm just going to post the ruling itself.
| Subject |
| Pacifist Healer Feat Question |
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| Discussion Thread |
| Response (Support Rep) |
12/29/2009 08:57 AM |
Hello *****,
1. So you're saying that "As if you spent a healing surge" counts as spending a healing surge in all cases that triggers off of spending a surge?
A. No, "As if you spent a healing surge" is not considered spending a healing surge. You'll receive no benefits that add because you spent a healing surge, such as pacifist healer.
Please let me know if you need anymore help!
We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.
To login to your account, or update your question please click here.
Troy
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
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Saturday-Sunday 10am-4pm PST / 1pm-7pm EST
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To contrast, a response fresh off the presses:
| Response (Support Agent) |
12/30/2009 12:27 PM |
Hi *****,
Cure Light Wounds lets the target regain hit points as if they had spent a healing surge. All effects that would apply when a target spends a healing surge would apply when they heal from Cure Light Wounds. Thus, they would gain the armors enhancement bonus.
Please let me know if you need anymore help!
We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.
To login to your account, or update your question please click here.
Jason W
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
Saturday-Sunday 10am-4pm PST / 1pm-7pm EST
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Auto-Response 12/30/2009 11:44 AM Your message has NOT been submitted yet.To receive immediate help, please check out the answer(s) listed below. If there are no answers listed, or the suggested answers do not help you, please click the "Send Email" button below, if available. Customer (*****) 12/30/2009 11:44 AM Armor of Durability has the following property:When you spend a healing surge to regain hit points, you regain additional hit points equal to the armor’s enhancement bonus.Cure Light Wounds says "The target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge." Since the Armor of Durability property would have triggered to add more hit points if the target was wearing it and spent a healing surge, and Cure Light Wounds grants healing "as if" a healing surge actually were spent, does Cure Light Wounds let the target get the bonus healing from Armor of Durability? One CS says you get no benefits that trigger from a healing surge, the other says you get all effects that trigger from a healing surge. The book says you get any effects that would heal you when you spend a surge, which is somewhere in between the two. It doesn't address Pacifist Healer and whether CLW counts as a power that lets you spend a healing surge, but it does show why one CS response isn't definitive.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2009 - 12:49PM
#69
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2009
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As shown earlier in the thread, Armor of Durability and Pacifist Healer have different wording.
AoD triggers off of the spending a surge. PH does not trigger off of spending a surge; PH triggers off of using a power. The two CS answers are not contradictory.
For Pacifist Healer, read and apply the actual text for the feat rather than trying to interpret backwards from a desired result.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2009 - 1:07PM
#70
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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As shown earlier in the thread, Armor of Durability and Pacifist Healer have different wording.
AoD triggers off of the spending a surge. PH does not trigger off of spending a surge; PH triggers off of using a power. The two CS answers are not contradictory.
For Pacifist Healer, read and apply the actual text for the feat rather than trying to interpret backwards from a desired result.
When one CS says "'As if you spent a healing surge' is not considered spending a healing surge. You'll receive no benefits that add because you spent a healing surge" and the other says "All effects that would apply when a target spends a healing surge would apply when they heal from Cure Light Wounds," they contradict, even though the given outcomes (the armor working and PH not) don't necessarily contradict. One says you get nothing you'd trigger from a surge, the other says you get everything, and the book says you only get the healing you'd trigger from a surge.
If you read my whole post, you'd realize that I specifically stated I was not trying to apply that to PH. No where in this thread have I taken a stance on the interaction of PH and CLW. Please don't assume that me pointing out an error in your reasoning means I'm supporting the stance you're opposing; I just came into this thread to support the position that "regain hit points as if you spent a healing surge" is not the same as "regain hit points equal to your healing surge value."
For fun, an updated CS response after asking about PH, wherein he does say the two probably work together but it's ultimately up to the DM. This definitely contradicts the previous CS response that they don't work together (and indeed that you wouldn't get anything that triggered from a surge).
| Discussion Thread |
| Response (Support Agent) |
12/30/2009 12:49 PM |
Hi *****,
It appears to function the same way. Unfortunately, there isn’t an official answer for the situation you describe. I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers. Hopefully, we’ll see an update or FAQ entry covering it soon, but until then it’s up to the campaign’s Dungeon Master to decide. The DM is always the final arbiter on how they want their campaign to run. Have fun!
Please let me know if you need anymore help! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.
To login to your account, or update your question please click here.
Jason W
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
Saturday-Sunday 10am-4pm PST / 1pm-7pm EST |
| Customer (****) |
12/30/2009 12:42 PM |
Thanks for the quick response! I have something else along the same lines I'm curious about. The Pacifist Healer feat says this:
When you use a divine power that allows a target to spend a healing surge, the target regains additional hit points equal to 1d6 + your Charisma modifier.
Does Cure Light Wounds also trigger this? It's not a power that lets the target spend a surge, but it is a power that lets the target act as thought it's spent a surge. |
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