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3 years ago ::
Jan 06, 2010 - 11:07AM
#511
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2008
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Because I am curious, what are people's stance on DM created materials for use in his game, such as unique races and unique Paragon Paths?
I have nothing against DM created material as long as it fits certain criteria that I think pretty much anyone can agree to.
1) not fulfilling a deprived fetish, eg : no tentacle rape races
2) the creator of said material was trying to make a balanced addition to the game
3) the material is considered beta material, and changes can be made to any problems that pop up, preferably with those affected providing input.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 06, 2010 - 5:32PM
#512
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Date Joined:
Jan 22, 2008
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Again any ban for any reason other than balance is completley arbitrary because the entire world is up to the DM.
I might be able to agree with this - it depends on whether you assign any negative connotations to the term 'arbitrary" - after all, EVERYTHING chosen (or not) for a game is arbitrary. (even your choice of character, and whether to play or not)
So if a player comes up with a concept the dm had not thought of incorpurating it behooves the dm to at least listen to the idea first.
And here is a point of potential agreement. The DM should listen (in my opinion, of course). After which, of course, he or she can still say "no, thank you".
edited: clarified
In which case if Im the player more than likely I walk out of the game because I can't see having fun in a game where I cant play the kind of character I want. I don't see how anyone could. I get an idea in my head personality,background as well as race and class and then if Im not allowed to use it Ill be disapointed and not have fun. I dont see how people can have fun if the dm says no all the time. Everyone at the table should have fun, and to that end the dm should have few if any restrictions and be able to bend those restrictions.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 06, 2010 - 5:56PM
#513
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
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I just assumed he meant from 40k and I'm not trolling. I have consistently stated that balance is the only reason to ban something, and someone with knowledge from the future could be a balance issue. That and I natrually hate time travel, but I'd try to work through that bias. Again any ban for any reason other than balance is completley arbitrary because the entire world is up to the DM. So if a player comes up with a concept the dm had not thought of incorpurating it behooves the dm to at least listen to the idea first.
First you started getting all worked up over teh gun (which as DM you can limit, and let the player know that it s a limited time weapon). When the other poster started talking about "no gun" you got worked up over time travel. Now it is about future knowledge. You make me dizzy with all your movement Will.
Advanced knowledge is not a balance issue. Knowing how to make a laser gun is not a balance issue if there is no access to the basic components to make the gun.
So what if this one person knows the basics of making steel. Make sure that he makes knowledge checks to impart his knowledge. Does me have thorough knowledge of mining, smelting etc...he is not a blacksmith and won't have it in his background. The process of smelting and producing iron is different than copper and bronze. It would take time...time you as the DM have control over.
See you are as bad as those "Bad DMs". You think you are not, but you are. You will listen but your mind is already closed. You would not even try and consider how to make teh Space Marine work, you just focused on how to make it seem like you would consider it, but in the end say no...all in the name of balance.
In which case if Im the player more than likely I walk out of the game because I can't see having fun in a game where I cant play the kind of character I want. I don't see how anyone could. I get an idea in my head personality,background as well as race and class and then if Im not allowed to use it Ill be disapointed and not have fun. I dont see how people can have fun if the dm says no all the time. Everyone at the table should have fun, and to that end the dm should have few if any restrictions and be able to bend those restrictions.
And here you are playing hypocracy. Space Marine is the concept that is presented to you. His personality and background is all worked out. You are saying no.
And teh DM saying no makes you lose fun for a campaign? You must be constantly unhappy in life. People say no to you all the time in RL. And this is just a game. You must have perma-frown. The Anti-Joker.
See, me. If I come with a concept that gets denied I have no issue with it, I have a bunch of other concepts, one of them will be accepted. See I work with my DM, not force my view on him. He has the world to consider building for us, I make his life easier by working within his guidelines.
Do you have a job Will? A boss? Seriously answer me.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 06, 2010 - 6:05PM
#514
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2007
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In which case if Im the player more than likely I walk out of the game because I can't see having fun in a game where I cant play the kind of character I want. I don't see how anyone could. I get an idea in my head personality,background as well as race and class and then if Im not allowed to use it Ill be disapointed and not have fun. I dont see how people can have fun if the dm says no all the time. Everyone at the table should have fun, and to that end the dm should have few if any restrictions and be able to bend those restrictions.
Will have you ever gone to a ice cream stand and asked for a flavor and when they dont have that flavor just walk away? Do you go to a restaurant and walk out because they are out of pie? When you go to a movie, If you didnt enjoy it 100% do you ask for a refund?
I cant believe that your "Concept" is so cast in stone that you are so stubborn on small details. Do you have a different meaning of that word? You dont have concepts it seem, you seem to have concreted rules of what you are going to play.
If you are going to play a Teifling and I say No Dragonborn. Are you going to walk out? Even if no one else was going to pick dragonborn?
 Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 06, 2010 - 6:38PM
#515
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In which case if Im the player more than likely I walk out of the game because I can't see having fun in a game where I cant play the kind of character I want. I don't see how anyone could. I get an idea in my head personality,background as well as race and class and then if Im not allowed to use it Ill be disapointed and not have fun.
Wow, the sense of entitlement is staggering. This comes across as "My fun before anyone elses." Now I know this is a joke because anyone who actually thought like this would have no one to play with.
I dont see how people can have fun if the dm says no all the time.
At what point has anyone stated that the DM says no all the time? I haven't seen anyone say anything close to that.
Everyone at the table should have fun, and to that end the dm should have few if any restrictions and be able to bend those restrictions.
What if it is not fun for the DM to concede to every player whim?
Everything is not as extreme as you make it out to be.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. --George Orwell There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. --Howard Zinn He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster. --Friedrich Nietzsche 
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3 years ago ::
Jan 06, 2010 - 6:44PM
#516
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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In which case if Im the player more than likely I walk out of the game because I can't see having fun in a game where I cant play the kind of character I want. I don't see how anyone could.
For those us of us without limited imaginations, we can easily see how they could.
I get an idea in my head personality,background as well as race and class and then if Im not allowed to use it Ill be disapointed and not have fun.
This is atypical. Most people have enough imagination to get multiple ideas in their heads. Case in point. I have this fantastic idea for a 3ed good necromancer. When I told a few friends about it, they were blown away. I've been waiting to use it for about 8 months now and we're going to be starting up another campaign in a few weeks. Guess what? The campaign is not going to be one in which my character would fit, so I have to come up with something else. Am I upset? Not at all. Am I disappointed? A little bit. Will I have tons of fun with my myriad of other ideas? Absolutely.
I dont see how people can have fun if the dm says no all the time.
And you have yet to prove where anyone here is advocating the DM saying no all the time. So far, all you've proved is that you're paranoid that if the DM says no once, he will say no every time. That's just plain bull pucky. Your paranoia has no bearing on reality.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 06, 2010 - 7:00PM
#517
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
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I was getting worried about this thread, will had not posted in it and so the contributions to it had lessened. Thanks for giving this thread some momentum again.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 06, 2010 - 7:11PM
#518
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Date Joined:
Jan 22, 2008
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In which case if Im the player more than likely I walk out of the game because I can't see having fun in a game where I cant play the kind of character I want. I don't see how anyone could. I get an idea in my head personality,background as well as race and class and then if Im not allowed to use it Ill be disapointed and not have fun. I dont see how people can have fun if the dm says no all the time. Everyone at the table should have fun, and to that end the dm should have few if any restrictions and be able to bend those restrictions.
Will have you ever gone to a ice cream stand and asked for a flavor and when they dont have that flavor just walk away? Do you go to a restaurant and walk out because they are out of pie? When you go to a movie, If you didnt enjoy it 100% do you ask for a refund?
If I went to a steak place and they had no steak Id walk out, if I wanted choclate ice cream and the place was out of every kind of choclate yes. I dont see why a dm should limit races and classes I see no reason other than balance to do so. And I said before Id probably allow the space marine but Id watch it carefully.
I cant believe that your "Concept" is so cast in stone that you are so stubborn on small details. Do you have a different meaning of that word? You dont have concepts it seem, you seem to have concreted rules of what you are going to play.
Depends if I talked to the dm made a good case and he said no I have to assume the dm is a tyrant. I have to assume that he is just too inflexible to change his world. I'm just sick of the player always having to be the one to adapt.
If you are going to play a Teifling and I say No Dragonborn. Are you going to walk out? Even if no one else was going to pick dragonborn?
Id look at you funny and ask why. Because I see no reason or possible justification for such a ban.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 06, 2010 - 8:04PM
#519
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2007
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If I went to a steak place and they had no steak Id walk out, if I wanted choclate ice cream and the place was out of every kind of choclate yes. I dont see why a dm should limit races and classes I see no reason other than balance to do so. And I said before Id probably allow the space marine but Id watch it carefully.
I never said steakhouse, stop justifying your answers with information that is not provided.
If you went to a ice cream store and there was no ... Cookiedough but they had every other flavor imaginable would you walk out?
if you went to a steakhouse and they had no ribeye would you walk out?
Depends if I talked to the dm made a good case and he said no I have to assume the dm is a tyrant. I have to assume that he is just too inflexible to change his world. I'm just sick of the player always having to be the one to adapt.
What would you consider a good case? If I say: "I want a space marine from the planet earth because I think timetravel is great and humans from earth are always getting lost in other demensions." is that a good case? I think it is. Who is the decider if the case is good? the DM.
You do realize that by saying that you as a player are the judge if your concept is sound and you as a DM can judge if a concept is sound means that your opinion is the Tyrannical one.
Id look at you funny and ask why. Because I see no reason or possible justification for such a ban.
But would you walk away? If not you are being hypocritical. The ban in not useless. it is just not needed to be enforced.
Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 06, 2010 - 9:07PM
#520
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Date Joined:
May 10, 2009
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I ask this to William for the purpose of clarifaction:
When you speak of a player having a right to play the character concept he has imagined, do you mean the player has a right to use all the mechanical things which will enable his character?
Or do you additionally mean that the player has a right to use all the fluff which he has imagined?
In other words, do you consider it bad form if a dungeon master bans dragon marks (regardless of reflavouring as elemental marks, witch marks, Harry Potter scars) in his game?
Or is it bad form if a dungeon master bans dragon marks as dragon marks coming from a draconic prophecy?
A different example: is it bad form to ban anime characters because they do not fit in the world? Or is it bad form to ban the class of Seekers because they remind the dungeon master of Shinto archers? (My example here is rather stretched because I am completely unfamilair with anime and anime inspired Dungeons and Dragons characters. maybe soemoen can give a better example.)
Member of Grognards for 4th Edition
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