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Switch to Forum Live View Playing with the Core books only
3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2009 - 7:03AM #1
MawOfAcamar
Date Joined: May 28, 2009
Posts: 627
My group and I decided that we'd only use the Core books for our campaigns this year (PH1, PH2, DMG, MM1, MM2, so no power book and no ddi dungeon/dragon mag).

Obviously, this trend is kinda rare on these forums as I see most of you with the DDi logo under their username.

My question goes like this, and also a bit of a comment/rant:

Would you feel gimped if you had access only to these books? What are your opinion on using only core books (I know we have less options, but our campaigns take one year real time to complete and we're at our second campiagn and we've not even tried all of the classes yet).

I played a one-timer with another group that had DDi access and I could see all the extra options, but are they really needed? Are they needed right away or do you think it's something that should be added to the game after you've pretty much tried everything else in the books?

My initial opinion on the DDI content was also that it seemed always more powerful than was is presented in the core books, not just more options but almost always more powerful options. Is it something that can be confirmed or is it just my impression as I did not get an in-depth look at the DDi content. I look at the weapon feat for Githzerai and the weapon feat for Eladrin and there is a big difference there.

Would you recommend that we try a campaign with DDi? I know I like the Character Builder a lot.
Will adding DDi options to our characters make the DM's job harder? Meaning that with our team as it is, the monsters from both MM are quite balanced. If we up tha ante on our character powers and feats, will it create an imbalance?

Thanks for staying with me the whole time. We are considering DDI for our next campaign in Feb or March.

-MawOfAcamar

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2009 - 7:14AM #2
Seeker95
  • Reasonably Disagreeable
Date Joined: Oct 24, 2001
Posts: 9,933
I played in or ran eight different campaigns with this "core only" rule in 3e, and see no reason it would not work in 4e. I had fun in all of my 3e-core-only campaigns, and the other players did too. The only caveat I would offer is that errata needs to be included in that.

(4e has made it so much "safer" [in my opinion] to allow-by-default supplemental material in 4e that I am not inclined to run such a campaign in 4e.)
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)

A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2009 - 7:24AM #3
RgAgsThMch
Date Joined: May 4, 2007
Posts: 687

I don't think limiting what books you use gimps your characters at all.  I only own the original three books in physical form (got some of the others in PDF before WotC put an end to that), and I often create characters using just the PHB1 to start, then add in things from other sources when I sit down at the CB.  I also perceive a discrepancy between the book material and DDI material, but I don't think a lot of it is game-breaking.


Ultimately, its up to you and your group to decide.  Just remember, the game was still fun when all you had was the original books, so limiting what books you use will still end up in a fun experience.

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2009 - 7:50AM #4
Bluewyrm
Date Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Posts: 154
For the most part, you will do fine with the core rule books only, but there are some char builds that are "lagging behind" without using splat-sources...  I'm of the opinion Paladin make lousy defenders (though still strong well-rounders) without Divine Sanction (included in Divine Power).  Wizards also are just... well... lousy.  At least in terms of at-wills, without their various splats.

If your players are crunch-savvy though, this shouldn't really be a problem.  Should be fairly obvious which classes/builds are lagging behind (Back when we only had PHB1, we figured out pretty quickly that Chaladins couldn't defend worth a damn, since their MBAs were bascially garaunteed to stink)
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2009 - 7:52AM #5
NachtSieger
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2008
Posts: 568
Yes.

I rather enjoy my options, and the paging through books and PDFs required. I mean, I could play a PHB only game and enjoy it, but I'd vastly prefer more things thrown into the mix.
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2009 - 7:56AM #6
Blakey
Date Joined: Jun 28, 2001
Posts: 804
I've been running SCAP for about 2 years now.   We had got to Chapter 4 when 4E came out and I decided to convert to 4E.  Back then we obviously only had the PHB, DMG and MM.   The players all converted their characters into PHB characters of 5th or 6th level (can't quite recall) and off we went.

We are still using only PHB rules for the players, although I have started to give them equipment out of DDi (I have a subscription as you can see).   I keep abreast of all the latest DDi bits and I throw monsters and traps at them from any DDi publication I fancy.   But they stick to the PHB.   They all own a hardback copy of the book and are happy to explore this book before moving on to other supplements.  No one has died in an unrecoverable manner yet so there has been no need to make new characters at all.  I think if that happened I might open up PHB2 (which I own) but would probably prefer them to just pick a new class from the PHB which has not been tried yet.

Actually, I have just recently bought all three of the first Powers books and have said they can start using stuff from those now when they level up (and with retraining).  But so far there has been no interest particularly.

The campaign is currently sat at 16th level and I can honestly say it has had zero downside to restricting the PCs to using PHB only material.   Equally I don't think things have ever got unbalanced with the use of monsters and traps from all over 4E.   I am pleased to say that so far I am not seeing the power creep I did when the 3E splatbooks came out.

But from our perspective, sticking to the PHB for characters for this campaign means that when we start up our next campaign we have a whole raft of new stuff to play with which will make that campaign a completely fresh game - that has to be a good thing.

I really think you could run an entire campaign with PCs sticking to PHB1 for a year.  Then start a new campaign with PCs using PHB2 the next year.  And so on.   I reckon it would work fine.

Cheers
Blakey
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2009 - 7:58AM #7
Pyromantic
Date Joined: Jan 8, 2007
Posts: 321

I think you're certain to still have fun.  I personally find these games frustrating, because I want to use the material that I've paid for and perused looking for interesting builds, but if no one in your group is particularly bothered about it then it shouldn't interfere with anything.


I will say that I don't see too much distinction in the power level between what you've labelled core and everything else, particularly if you consider all the errata.  The more supplemental material probably goes through less playtesting overall, so a few more overpowered options may get through initially, and increasing the number of options just about always allows for more powerful builds, but the general power level isn't inherently that different IMO.

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2009 - 11:44PM #8
Tony_Vargas
Date Joined: Sep 26, 2001
Posts: 10,732
'Core only' was a great idea in 3.x, which was overloaded with the possible combinations of multi- and prestige classes, feats, and so forth.  4e is, if anything, pumping out supplements even faster, but with the more restrictive multi-classing, and with many feats specific to race/class/build, the dis-synergy is more subdued.  Also, in 4e, 'core' is broader than it was, so you'll still have almost all classes available, for instance.

In general, I'd say that 4e works fine if you want to restrict it to certain books (or certain power sources, say) for a single campaign with one set of characters.  Over the long haul, though, each class is not really good for that many different PCs within the same group (it'd be pretty tough to make a 3rd greatweapon fighter who doesn't seem a lot like the previous two, but it's easy enough to make a Warden that's unique compared to previous non-warden defenders played in the same group).
Love 4e?  Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2009 - 11:48PM #9
CelticMutt
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Jul 25, 2007
Posts: 3,016

Dec 22, 2009 -- 7:03AM, MawOfAcamar wrote:

My group and I decided that we'd only use the Core books for our campaigns this year (PH1, PH2, DMG, MM1, MM2, so no power book and no ddi dungeon/dragon mag).
-MawOfAcamar



See, the thing is, everything is Core.  All of those books plus Dragon/Dungeon that you are excluding are Core.  There's nothing wrong with excluding them, but saying you're only using the Core books is not correct.

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2009 - 1:01AM #10
Novacat
Date Joined: Mar 29, 2005
Posts: 8,741
As a DM, I value the AV and AV2 for treasure generation, so you should keep that in mind. The treasure in the PHB is very limiting in regards what kinds of items are available at each level.
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
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