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3 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2010 - 12:21AM
#651
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Date Joined:
Jan 28, 2007
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@ Dragoncat: I see room for ambiguity there, but no specific mention of loud noises.
Of course, the Loud Noises was a joke. The point was distraction.
Looks like it wasn't taken that way.
Also most skills of that type of for use out of combat, and you have skill mastery at higher levels.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2010 - 12:21AM
#652
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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When the proverbial feces hit the fan, the wizard pulls through while the rogue falters. The wizard's quick spell and steady hand will see the group through in the darkest hour (succeeding his concentration check, because no wizard worth his staff with a knob on the end goes without Concentration), yet the rogue will let the fear and dread and adrenaline cause him to botch it.
So what. I can count on 2 fingers the number of times a party I was in had to run and got stuck at a locked door, and I'll have one finger left over and not use a finger more than once. The number of times we were unlocking a door during an earthquake is zero. Grappling? Pinned? In high winds? You've got to be joking. And you chide ME for obscure scenerios.
In a scenario with a distraction, a wizard with Sneakypants Abilities is better than a rogue.
A 1 in 1000 scenerio is worthless to consider, and I'm being very generous in granting you 1 in 1000.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2010 - 12:22AM
#653
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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@ Dragoncat: I see room for ambiguity there, but no specific mention of loud noises.
Of course, the Loud Noises was a joke. The point was distraction.
Looks like it wasn't taken that way.
Also most skills of that type of for use out of combat, and you have skill mastery at higher levels.
I forgot skill mastery.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2010 - 12:23AM
#654
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2003
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I have Lords of Madness too, thats where I found the entry for Telepathic Awareness. The only way to block it is with Mind Blank.
Or be undead. Necropolitan human ninja one-man assault on an Illithid community...oh yeah! That was a fun time, need to do it again someday. Oh, crud, I'd have to go back to 3.garbage for that...nevermind. Oh...maybe I could do it in 3.5 Eberron, that would be worth it.
As for well-trained rogues being so great at hiding, it's entirely reasonable to create guards that are of equal strength and actually trained to FIND THINGS. Heck, if I were the lord of a sizable town or city that was even within a weeks-ride of another city with a Thieve's Guild in it, I'd make sure my guards were trained to spot things on pain of death. No spell or technology can help at all without the simple ability to actually pay attention to your surroundings and really observe. What good is a security system if the guards all take naps, after all? (That said, I never subscribe to the various tropes of any genre of stories. When playing a villain, I don't capture the good guys and torment them with tales of my evil plans and how doomed they are...I whack em...right then and there. Problem solved.)
This is, of course, assuming that breaking into the lord's palace is an appropriately leveled adventure. In which case, the guards most assuredly should have a reasonable though not great chance of spotting the rogue even at his best. They might even have a few magical backups to discourage invisibility and such, if the adventure's at those levels or after. At best, neither would be able to do it alone, at worst, they wouldn't even be able to do it together. Most likely, they'd be interchangably useful...neither ever being "more" successful at the job than the other.
Spellcasters can, with few situational exceptions, perform any task as well or better than any other class, and they don't need to "build" themselves a certain way to do so. Still, I consider arcanists inferior to psionicists. Never lost to a wizard or a sorcerer as a psion, even when 5 levels lower than they. Oh, and never lost to a wizard or a sorcerer as a warlock, either...but never tried more than 2 levels higher. Wizards and the like...even my favorites, psions...could simply do too much, regardless of how much they could actually do. Things are better now that they CAN'T do all that crap. There's still some distance to go yet though. Death to the swiss-army-classes.
Pure win from first to last. Thank you sir. Finally some logic to an illogical thread.
ps. in my opinion. Ha!
The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change...
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3 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2010 - 12:26AM
#655
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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I dealt with this in my last post, nice of you to cut it out instead of dealing with it.
Your search wasn't effective. Dragoncat is one of those who is arguing that the wizard is better than a rogue at being a rogue. He's also arguing how easy it is. That is in effect arguing that the rogue is not needed. I also specifically recall people arguing that there was no reason to play a rogue when you could play a wizard or cleric instead and be a better rogue. That is also arguing that the rogue is not needed and should be replaced.
If you are replacing the rogue then one isn't in the party.
Because you've kicked him out to replace him with a caster. This is being an ass and would not be tolerated in my game.
The only other argument about the wizard being inferior in the role of the rogue are based around a obstacle negating the use of a single spell with out much regard to how likely that will happen or what other spells might work.
Not a single spell. ALL SPELLS so far presented to me are either highly situational(fly), or are just plain inferior(everything else).
As wizard's greatest strength is their versatility the many possible option would have a greater impact that any one spell. Of course if it is enough is another story.
And so far no one has presented a wizard versitile enough to get the party by traps reliably.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2010 - 12:28AM
#656
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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I have Lords of Madness too, thats where I found the entry for Telepathic Awareness. The only way to block it is with Mind Blank.
Or be undead. Necropolitan human ninja one-man assault on an Illithid community...oh yeah! That was a fun time, need to do it again someday. Oh, crud, I'd have to go back to 3.garbage for that...nevermind. Oh...maybe I could do it in 3.5 Eberron, that would be worth it.
As for well-trained rogues being so great at hiding, it's entirely reasonable to create guards that are of equal strength and actually trained to FIND THINGS. Heck, if I were the lord of a sizable town or city that was even within a weeks-ride of another city with a Thieve's Guild in it, I'd make sure my guards were trained to spot things on pain of death. No spell or technology can help at all without the simple ability to actually pay attention to your surroundings and really observe. What good is a security system if the guards all take naps, after all? (That said, I never subscribe to the various tropes of any genre of stories. When playing a villain, I don't capture the good guys and torment them with tales of my evil plans and how doomed they are...I whack em...right then and there. Problem solved.)
This is, of course, assuming that breaking into the lord's palace is an appropriately leveled adventure. In which case, the guards most assuredly should have a reasonable though not great chance of spotting the rogue even at his best. They might even have a few magical backups to discourage invisibility and such, if the adventure's at those levels or after. At best, neither would be able to do it alone, at worst, they wouldn't even be able to do it together. Most likely, they'd be interchangably useful...neither ever being "more" successful at the job than the other.
Spellcasters can, with few situational exceptions, perform any task as well or better than any other class, and they don't need to "build" themselves a certain way to do so. Still, I consider arcanists inferior to psionicists. Never lost to a wizard or a sorcerer as a psion, even when 5 levels lower than they. Oh, and never lost to a wizard or a sorcerer as a warlock, either...but never tried more than 2 levels higher. Wizards and the like...even my favorites, psions...could simply do too much, regardless of how much they could actually do. Things are better now that they CAN'T do all that crap. There's still some distance to go yet though. Death to the swiss-army-classes.
Pure win from first to last. Thank you sir. Finally some logic to an illogical thread.
ps. in my opinion. Ha!
I guess you missed the post showing that the guard could only succeed if the rogue decided to roll a 1 on his 20 sided and the guard also rolled a 19-21, depending on the rogue's skill. If the rogue was a gnome or halfling, it would be impossible for the like level guard to see the rogue.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2010 - 12:30AM
#657
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This is frikkin' hilarious. I have to wonder who has more time on their hands, the people posting in this thread or me for actually reading it? I have to say, though, that I'm always entertained by Xun and Max.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. --George Orwell There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. --Howard Zinn He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster. --Friedrich Nietzsche 
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3 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2010 - 12:37AM
#658
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- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2004
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Dragoncat is one of those who is arguing that the wizard is better than a rogue at being a rogue. He's also arguing how easy it is. That is in effect arguing that the rogue is not needed.
I am putting forth the notion that wizards were filled to the brim with Magic Bullet abilities that allowed them to circumvent encounters, including those that were meant to challenge rogues.
In a way, yes, this gets down to the fact that the rogue has a problem in relation to the other classes. Since we are talking about third edition, this is the norm; all noncasters were in this boat.
A 1 in 1000 scenerio is worthless to consider, and I'm being very generous in granting you 1 in 1000.
And you chide ME for obscure scenerios.
So the 1 in 1000 scenario where Passwall doesn't get you past the barrier, as you described, is worthless?
I chide for obscure scenarios for the exact reason I pointed out silly quibbles and called them such; they aren't the norm, and don't matter. Spiked Growth doesn't seriously impact a rogue's performance, nor do we really care about a fairy buzzing around his head saying Hey! Listen!, just as the one in a million scenario where Dimension Door won't function to get you past a trapped doorway isn't a serious issue. Under normal circumstances, the Invisibility will work, the Clair/DD combo will get past serious fortifications, Passwall will circumvent major problems and chokepoints, and Dispel Magic will laugh in the face of all magical traps.
Most of the time.
This is frikkin' hilarious. I have to wonder who has more time on their hands, the people posting in this thread or me for actually reading it? I have to say, though, that I'm always entertained by Xun and Max.
I have too much time on my hands, therefore I am.
Boredom is proof of existence!
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3 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2010 - 12:46AM
#659
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2003
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You know - someone should retitle the thread to be "The Real Reason People Hate 3.x Ed."
As it is - it's rather misleading.
And you are rather misled. :P
One could rope me into a game of D&D, any edition 1 through 4, pretty easily. Just because 3e was flawed does not me we didn't love it. And many of us still do. 3e was mechanically very harmonious. Unfortunately, the biggest problem was the disparity between the classes and the rediculous way attacks ramped up in relation to defenses.
As for the thread, it started on topic enough. However, it has been derailed for several pages now. Like any conversation, it organically grows away from where it started. 'Tis nothing new.
Scope my YouTube channel!The U.S. Army: The best job in the world, working with some of the best people in the world, for one of the worst employers you could ever imagine. Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS! | Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994. | Billy Goat Gruff in the House of Trolls. |
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3 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2010 - 12:50AM
#660
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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So the 1 in 1000 scenario where Passwall doesn't get you past the barrier, as you described, is worthless?
Passwall will fail a very large percentage of the time. You cannot go straight into the room, and odds are good that right and left won't get you into the room, either. It will simply get you lost. Hardly the 1 in 1000 that you present for the opening of locks.
just as the one in a million scenario where Dimension Door won't function to get you past a trapped doorway isn't a serious issue.
This is another limited scenerio. In order to get a typical party of 5-6 characters into that room with dimension door, you'd need to be 12-15th level. This is nice if you happen to be towards the end game of the campaign, but not if you're in the majority of the party's adventuring career.
Dispel Magic will laugh in the face of all magical traps.
Hardly. Dispel Magic will fail a good percentage of the time if cast directly by the wizard, and fail the majority of the time if used from a scroll or wand.
Look. Spell casters were overpowered in 3ed. Very few people try and dispute that. However, they cannot do what the rogue does better than the rogue does it. The spells are just too limited and it takes too many different spells to handle all of the different situations that the rogue can handle. The wizard is better off not even trying and letting the rogue do his job.
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